On the brink of default

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by The Omega Concern

Care to explain why its been used as currency the world over the last 6000 years while the average lifespan of fiat paper is about 27 years?

In ancient, medieval, and early modern monetary systems, coins were manufactured from metals like gold and silver, meaning that money's value was intrinsic in the coins themselves. This became impractical during the eighteenth century, with increasing quantities of money in circulation, growing use of notes and bank credit, and declining resources of silver. Hence the development of the gold standard.

Gold bugs like you continue to preach that without a gold standard, money is "objectively worthless." However, this ignores the fact that gold is intrinsically worthless, as any object's value is only assigned by the collective value put on something by its consumers (otherwise known as "the market"), and that the use of gold as reserve currency is more a tradition than anything else. Given that, paper money (backed by a sensible government) has an advantage over gold in that, while being intrinsically worthless, it is at least cheap to make, as opposed to gold which is intrinsically worthless and requires a massive mining and smelting infrastructure to extract and form into ingots which then do nothing but sit in vaults for the rest of eternity. This is why most developed countries have floating currencies, and it is only in the developing world that fixed currencies still exist.

Even gold can suffer problems with inflation. Gold rushes expanded the money supply, and when not matched with a simultaneous increase in economic output, it caused inflation. The advantage of a fiat currency is in theory to match the expansion of the money supply with the expansion of economic output rather than having the money supply expand arbitrarily when Yukon Cornelius strikes gold. There are all sorts of other factors at play that affect inflation but aren't tied to the currency itself. An oil shock is going to drive prices up if your economy relies on oil, which is inflationary whether your currency is backed by gold or nothing at all. Another problem is that we seem to have mined most of the gold there is to mine, so switching to a gold standard would result in a completely inelastic money supply. Nevertheless, unless you're living in a nation suffering Weimar Republic-caliber hyperinflation, gold bugs are firmly in crank territory.

The largest problem in returning to the gold standard is that there is simply not enough gold in the world to cover the quantity of currency presently in existence. To put it another way, even if the US were somehow able to purchase the world's entire gold stocks (in itself an impossible proposition) there would still be nowhere near enough gold to cover the total value of dollars in existence.

Long story short, people like you consistently ignore the plain fact that gold is just a shiny rock with little actual value besides what is assigned to it by society (just like paper currency!).

[sppunk]

The other problem of gold it it's a publicly traded commodity that can be sabotaged by investors (like the price of oil).

[Debaser]

Name one modern country today that is on the gold standard. one.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Debaser

Name one modern country today that is on the gold standard. one.

This is where Omega goes, "Name one modern country today that isn't on the gold standard that isn't also in the pocket of either the Bilderbergs, the Rothschilds, the Five Jew Bankers, or any combination of those three. One."

[The Omega Concern]

originally posted by Tchocky:

Long story short, people like you consistently ignore the plain fact that gold is just a shiny rock with little actual value besides what is assigned to it by society (just like paper currency!).

Your ignorance of the esoteric writings and research of Zacharia Sitchen notwithstanding, a simple fact you currently ignore is that Gold can still be exchanged for currency.

The traditional, religious, barbaric relic with no "instrinsic" value is now priced at a record $1650 an ounce. And believe me no one, not even gold bugs, want $5000 an ounce Gold anytime soon cause all that would mean is societal breakdown and chaos. After this debt deal, the market should have gone up and PM's should have gone down. I was anticipating that and the reverse has happened and that's a disturbing signal.

I'm not argueing for a Gold backed currency either. Just recognizing the time which the USD went off the gold standard and the devaluing of the currency since then and also that not having our currency backed by anything other than the Fed Chairmen and the whims of an infinite printing press isn't exactly working out.

[The Omega Concern]

originally posted by Tchocky:

Given that, paper money (backed by a sensible government)

Are you saying we have a sensible government? Moreover, are you so deluded to think Governments are sensible to begin with and ever could be without free citizens keeping a skeptical eye on the government?

I suppose if the U.S. got the best looking pop-culture President we could get and he told you that being a debt slave is the best possible thing for the citenzry you would go along with it as long as it appeared "sensible"? That's essentially what we have now.

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Long story short, people like you consistently ignore the plain fact that gold is just a shiny rock with little actual value besides what is assigned to it by society (just like paper currency!).

Originally Posted by The Omega Concern

a simple fact you currently ignore is that Gold can still be exchanged for currency.

The contempt you have for logic and rational argument is just incredible.

Embarrassing.

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by The Omega Concern

Your ignorance of the esoteric writings and research of Zacharia Sitchen notwithstanding,

Being ignorant of Sitchen is a compliment.


Zecharia Sitchin (July 11, 1920 – October 9, 2010[1]) was a Azerbaijani-born American author of books promoting an explanation for human origins involving ancient astronauts. Sitchin attributes the creation of the ancient Sumerian culture to the Anunnaki, which he states was a race of extra-terrestrials from a planet beyond Neptune called Nibiru. He believed this hypothetical planet of Nibiru to be in an elongated, elliptical orbit in the Earth's own Solar System, asserting that Sumerian mythology reflects this view. Sitchin's books have sold millions of copies worldwide and have been translated into more than 25 languages.

Sitchin's hypotheses are not accepted by scientists and academics, who dismiss his work as pseudoscience and pseudohistory. Sitchin's work has been criticized for flawed methodology and mistranslations of ancient texts as well as for incorrect astronomical and scientific claims.

[Debaser]

If you cannot see how in principle that gold is a fiat currency in the same way that the dollar is a fiat currency then no wonder you fall for conspiracy theories so easily.

Real world concepts can be difficult, so let's just blame aliens and supervillians. It works on the children.

Maybe no single country in the world is on the gold standard because it would be astoundingly stupid?

Instead of jews and rothchilds operating the New World Order, maybe no modern society wants the value of their currency based on how much of a particular rock they can mine out of the ground?

Maybe modern intelligent people would prefer market and trade forces to determine their rate of exchange instead of how much of a certain rock they have stored away?

[Trotskilicious]

you know omega's right. slavery worked for thousands of years of human history and not having slaves has been what pft only 200 years? STOP BEING SHEEPLE, SHEEPLE.

[Trotskilicious]

this goes for rights for women, too.

[Trotskilicious]

and it's weird how omega willingly submits himself to the machinations of the Anunnaki and their gold powered space ships

what a simpleton guys

[duovamp]

Also, as I've said before and which sppunk touched upon, when a country like the US is stuck on a gold standard, then a country like France can go out and buy or sell a shit ton of gold, which will cause tons of problems with the value of our currency. I guess somebody wants FRENCH PEOPLE to run America now. Mind you, this isn't a made up example, because it actually fucking happened with Chuck De Gaulle.


Money: De Gaulle v. the Dollar
Friday, Feb. 12, 1965
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...840572,00.html

[bahnzah]

This fetish for gold is has been completely revitalized by glenn beck whose primary sponsor is Goldline, a company whose entire marketing strategy is based on the premise that you should use your paper money to buy gold because your paper money will eventually be valueless.

Watching TOC pop into this thread reminds me of reading Jared Loughner's threads on abovetopsecret.com.

[Trotskilicious]

i'm tellin you either he's a troll or he's as crazy as the Norwegian

[Debaser]

Nah, TOC is the living embodiment of the Dunning–Kruger effect.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by The Omega Concern

Your ignorance of the esoteric writings and research of Zacharia Sitchen notwithstanding...

Sorry, I don't believe self-important cranks who think that ancient society was founded by alien astronauts looking for gold that came from a planet that has yet to be scientifically proven to exist, whose only "evidence" to support his claims comes from bad science and laughably inaccurate mistranslations of ancient writings.

a simple fact you currently ignore is that Gold can still be exchanged for currency.

See what Debaser wrote in response to this.

I'm not argueing for a Gold backed currency either. Just recognizing the time which the USD went off the gold standard and the devaluing of the currency since then and also that not having our currency backed by anything other than the Fed Chairmen and the whims of an infinite printing press isn't exactly working out.

I'm not saying that mindlessly printing money (AKA "Bushonomics") is a good thing. Printing money without a sound policy to manage the money supply can devastate an already-troubled economy if investors hoard the new money rather than spending it, reducing the real value of a stagnant market. However, returning to the gold standard or a fixed exchange system does not automatically prevent inflation (RE: the Mexican peso crisis of 1994 and the Icelandic financial crisis of 2009). All it means is that there will be a severe and debilitating crash in the currency when the government realizes it can no longer subsidize an artificially strong currency. A well-run mint would tie the production of "fresh" currency to run slightly ahead of growth in the economy, thus keeping the money supply in a close relation to the actual wealth of the nation.

Are you saying we have a sensible government? Moreover, are you so deluded to think Governments are sensible to begin with and ever could be without free citizens keeping a skeptical eye on the government?

I suppose if the U.S. got the best looking pop-culture President we could get and he told you that being a debt slave is the best possible thing for the citenzry you would go along with it as long as it appeared "sensible"? That's essentially what we have now.

I never said that we had a sensible government. I said that paper money backed by a sensible government was more practical than a gold standard. Our current government's non-sensibility doesn't change the fact that both gold and fiat currency are only worth what some societal construct says they're worth and the biggest difference between the two is one is a lot less practical to produce. Good luck bartering with all the gold you're buying up if society does someday collapse.

And yes, the debt ceiling deal is a shit sandwich.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by bahnzah

This fetish for gold is has been completely revitalized by glenn beck whose primary sponsor is Goldline, a company whose entire marketing strategy is based on the premise that you should use your paper money to buy gold because your paper money will eventually be valueless.

Watching TOC pop into this thread reminds me of reading Jared Loughner's threads on abovetopsecret.com.

Goldline also artificially inflates the "value" of the coins they sell you. You're better off going to the pawn shop and buying gold bullions (which are sold per weight) than buying from a scam like Goldline.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Debaser

Nah, TOC is the living embodiment of the Dunning–Kruger effect.

our entire culture is that, relentless and unrealistic positivity, no real self-assessment, dismissal and isolation of realists as "downers", etc

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

our entire culture is that, relentless and unrealistic positivity, no real self-assessment, dismissal and isolation of realists as "downers", etc

Groupthink.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

our entire culture is that, relentless and unrealistic positivity, no real self-assessment, dismissal and isolation of realists as "downers", etc

Politically our culture for the most part is being divided into two categories to which to pledge undying allegiance. So of course to disagree with any tenet of the proposed philosophy is to disagree with it all, and the two parties couldn't be happier.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Debaser

Groupthink.

We need to stop agreeing so often.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

Politically our culture for the most part is being divided into two categories to which to pledge undying allegiance. So of course to disagree with any tenet of the proposed philosophy is to disagree with it all, and the two parties couldn't be happier.

I'm just talking about Generation Y and how annoying they are with their sunshine positivity, laid back attitude, and complete apathy towards politics. "I can't do anything about it! Not my problem!"

FUCKING RIOT

[Trotskilicious]

i think that describes america in general, where psychotherapy is pooh poohed and delusional positivity and "confidence" is the cure all fix all.

[Order 66]

dont be so negative

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

I'm just talking about Generation Y and how annoying they are with their sunshine positivity, laid back attitude, and complete apathy towards politics. "I can't do anything about it! Not my problem!"

FUCKING RIOT

aren't you generation Y young man

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

Politically our culture for the most part is being divided into two categories to which to pledge undying allegiance. So of course to disagree with any tenet of the proposed philosophy is to disagree with it all, and the two parties couldn't be happier.

Tribalism.

[Order 66]

i've been reading over this shitty deal and i'm wondering why republicans didn't want to extend the payroll tax cuts. aren't they supposed to be all for lower taxes? they aren't even trying to hide their diabolism anymore

tank the economy in '11. blame obongo in '12

[sppunk]

Well the new tanking is thanks to Italy. The fucking EU is going to cause a complete worldwide collapse before America. Boo!

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Order 66

i've been reading over this shitty deal and i'm wondering why republicans didn't want to extend the payroll tax cuts. aren't they supposed to be all for lower taxes? they aren't even trying to hide their diabolism anymore

tank the economy in '11. blame obongo in '12