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Old 04-17-2002, 10:42 PM   #31
selection-7
 
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[quote]Originally posted by Graveflower:
More people own the Wall, and the White Album, than own Mellon Collie.

[/Q]
Though that probably is true, b/c many of the cd sales for Wall and White go to people buying another copy in cd format to complement their vinyl, the actual # of people who own those albums is less than simply adding CD sales + vinyl sales (to take it even further, some people may even have replaced their vinyl with a new vinyl at some point, which further inflates sales statistics. B/C cd's are more robust than vinyl and b/c it hasn't even been a decade since MCIS was released, MCIS hasn't had this sales advantage yet.) Albums which are as old as Wall and White also benefit from sales to a new generations of kids, who weren't musically aware or even born when the albums originally came out. However, albums go platinum much easier these days, making it easier for albums such as MCIS to catch up--though much of the sales of Wall and White also occurred during more recent times. In other words, meaningfully comparing recent albums' success with older albums' success is complicated, if not impossible.

[Edit: Let me add that I'm referring to success in commercial terms as judged by album sales.]

[This message has been edited by selection-7 (edited 04-17-2002).]

 
Old 04-22-2002, 07:53 PM   #32
mindilea
 
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Hi, I don't know if this is still a relevant thread--if you've already made your speech of not.
But you need to have a claim, support, and warrant (IB History taught me something, dammit!) Your claim is that the Smashing Pumpkins are the best band of the 90's. Your support would be all of the things that people have been listing above. So what you need now is a warrant.
This is the "definition" of your terms. If you phrase it as an if/then sentence:
"If the best band of the 90's is defined as (blank--this is your warrant), then (this is your claim) the Smashing Pumpkins are the best band because (this is your support) of blah blah blah.
I don't know what your warrant should be. But when my friend and I were trying to decide on the best band of the 90's, we had limiting terms. The band couldn't have had major releases before 1990. They had to be active in both halves of the decade. This would disqualify bands like Nirvana, who collapsed in 1994, and U2, since they're totally and 80's band.
It may seem like this is just disqualifying bands to make it easier, but keep in mind that the question is over who the best band of the *90's* is.
Then you need to define what would make a band the "best," and I would basically categorize the stuff that people have listed:
artistic diversity, fan base, online community, etc. And then elaborate on that for your support.
I hope that this little lesson in IB B.S. has been helpful for everyone.
Good luck on your speech!

 
Old 04-22-2002, 08:16 PM   #33
PhantomFM
 
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I've always been in the habit of buying singles for the b-sides of a band im not sure about because if they're good, they'll have good b-sides. if they suck or are just average, either their b-sides will suck, or they wont have any and have live versions or remixes instead. and sp has had more b-sides and unreleased songs than released material, and its all classic

------------------
PhantomFM

 
Old 04-23-2002, 02:33 PM   #34
saucerful of secrets
 
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the wall - 23 x platinum
mcis - 8 x platinum(?)

wall probably still sells more than the smashing pumpkins..

 
Old 04-23-2002, 02:56 PM   #35
GhostChild
 
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Name all the MTV music awards they won. See...Nirvanas biggest album was their first...they never got better...and like with all artist, they only got big after Kurt died. The Pumpkins were able to become the biggest rock band in the world in the 1996, well after the whole alternative grunge era went to shit. But to name them the best band of the 90s...I don't know. They were only HUGE from like 95-97 maybe. Thats 2 years...the 90s were 10 years. I think Pearl Jam may have been the better band of the 90s...Or even the Red Hot Chili Peppers. They were selling out arenas from like 95 on. SP couldn't even compare to these bands from 98 on. There were many bands that were better than SP in the 90s.

 
Old 04-23-2002, 03:17 PM   #36
GhostChild
 
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OK...now I'm actually reading this thread more...you people...get your shit straight.

Whoever made the point of them selling out those early 2000 shows fast...is dumb. Those are small venues. Pearl Jam could sell out a Ampitheatre in 2000 in that time. SP couldnt even sell out venues like the Berkeley Community Theatre, in which Tool sold it out last year in like a min. SP wasn't even selling out arenas in 96. After Jimmy got the boot, many many people returned there tickets. Friends who live here in Sacramento told me the Arco show was empty...in which Incubus sold the whole place out last week.

As for ticket cost...what does that really matter? It just means they are nice guys. When you are big...thats when you know you can charge 60 bucks for a ticket and still sell the show out. Fucking Dave Matthews charges like 60 bucks a ticket, and they can sell out soilder field. If you wanna talk about a band that can sell out a show anywhere in the US, thats the one. The Pumpkins fucked themselves in 96 before they even got the chance to get huge.

OK...and the whole small club thing, how many other bands have done that in the past, or still do it? Shit Blink 182 did a small club tour in 2000, and I would consider them bigger than SP ever was.

What it all comes down to is album sales and tours...and who did the most sales and biggest shows. The Chili Peppers toured on Californication for like 3 years or something? They did a arena tour in 1999 and sold all the shows out. Then in 2000 they did a ampitheatre tour, and sold em all out. And if you wanna talk album sales, Linkon Park Park has sold more albums already than SD ever did. I can name many band thats have

Creed - Human Clay 5 mil in 21 weeks *wow*
Creed - first LP 10 mil
Kid Rock - Devil Without... 10 mil
Sublime - 5 mil
Linkin Park 7 mil
U2 - new one 3 mil
Staind - Break the Cycle 4 mil

and even disturted has sold 2 mil, SOAD already is at 2 mil. Dave Matthews sells almost 7 mil or so of every one. And then...

Blink 182
Eneima of the State - 5 mil

Red Hot Chili Peppers
Blood Sugar Sex Magic 7 mil
Californication 4 mil

Pearl Jam
Ten - 11 mil
Viatology 5 mil
Vs. 7 mil

oh...and Pearl Jam did that wihtout music videos...Jeremy was their last music video before Do the Evolution...put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I think I have made a point of album sales here.

[This message has been edited by GhostChild (edited 04-23-2002).]

 
Old 04-23-2002, 08:51 PM   #37
bloop
 
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Are you defining "greatest" as "best" or "most successful"? That they are the best can be argued, but that they are the most successful is an unabashedly stupid arguement to make.

 
Old 04-26-2002, 11:56 AM   #38
Electro
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by GhostChild:
OK...now I'm actually reading this thread more...you people...get your shit straight.

Whoever made the point of them selling out those early 2000 shows fast...is dumb. Those are small venues. Pearl Jam could sell out a Ampitheatre in 2000 in that time. SP couldnt even sell out venues like the Berkeley Community Theatre, in which Tool sold it out last year in like a min. SP wasn't even selling out arenas in 96. After Jimmy got the boot, many many people returned there tickets. Friends who live here in Sacramento told me the Arco show was empty...in which Incubus sold the whole place out last week.

As for ticket cost...what does that really matter? It just means they are nice guys. When you are big...thats when you know you can charge 60 bucks for a ticket and still sell the show out. Fucking Dave Matthews charges like 60 bucks a ticket, and they can sell out soilder field. If you wanna talk about a band that can sell out a show anywhere in the US, thats the one. The Pumpkins fucked themselves in 96 before they even got the chance to get huge.

OK...and the whole small club thing, how many other bands have done that in the past, or still do it? Shit Blink 182 did a small club tour in 2000, and I would consider them bigger than SP ever was.

What it all comes down to is album sales and tours...and who did the most sales and biggest shows. The Chili Peppers toured on Californication for like 3 years or something? They did a arena tour in 1999 and sold all the shows out. Then in 2000 they did a ampitheatre tour, and sold em all out. And if you wanna talk album sales, Linkon Park Park has sold more albums already than SD ever did. I can name many band thats have

Creed - Human Clay 5 mil in 21 weeks *wow*
Creed - first LP 10 mil
Kid Rock - Devil Without... 10 mil
Sublime - 5 mil
Linkin Park 7 mil
U2 - new one 3 mil
Staind - Break the Cycle 4 mil

and even disturted has sold 2 mil, SOAD already is at 2 mil. Dave Matthews sells almost 7 mil or so of every one. And then...

Blink 182
Eneima of the State - 5 mil

Red Hot Chili Peppers
Blood Sugar Sex Magic 7 mil
Californication 4 mil

Pearl Jam
Ten - 11 mil
Viatology 5 mil
Vs. 7 mil

oh...and Pearl Jam did that wihtout music videos...Jeremy was their last music video before Do the Evolution...put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I think I have made a point of album sales here.

[This message has been edited by GhostChild (edited 04-23-2002).]

You cant really compare SP to bands with different types of music. linkin park are complete sellouts and if you target your music to little girls to make them think they are being "on the edge" then of course you will sell a lot of seats. SP could have been HUGE if they would have sold out, but the music quality would have gone to hell and most of their original fan base would leave too. i mean, could you really stand listening to billy sing a shallow song like "One Step Closer"?

 
Old 04-27-2002, 02:07 PM   #39
Graveflower
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by GhostChild:
Creed - Human Clay 5 mil
Sublime - 5 mil
Linkin Park 7 mil
U2 - new one 3 mil
Staind - Break the Cycle 4 mil
Blink 182 - Enema of the State - 5 mil
Red Hot Chili Peppers
Blood Sugar Sex Magic 7 mil
Californication 4 mil

SMASHING PUMPKINS MELLON COLLIE AND THE INFINITE SADNESS 07/17/01 VIRGIN RECORDS Multi Platinum 9.0


 
Old 04-27-2002, 02:08 PM   #40
Graveflower
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by GhostChild:
Nirvanas biggest album was their first...
lol

 
Old 04-28-2002, 08:01 AM   #41
saucerful of secrets
 
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So what would they have actually done if they had decided to sell out? In my opinion they have been doing the exact same things any other pop band does, their style just isn't popular anymore. It's not like Billy didn't try to be a huge succes.

 
Old 04-29-2002, 12:37 PM   #42
Gooch
 
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Okay! I gave my speech the other day, and I just want to say THANK YOU ALL for your input. First off, the speech went extremely well, I actually had too much info for my alotted time. The whole class listened attentively the whole time. They asked questions, most of which expressed amazement at the info I was saying. As soon as it was over, one girl was like, "Wow, that was amazing. I never knew what a great band and bunch of people SP were". Even the teacher asked which album he should give a listen to, and after class asked again to make sure his facts were staight (this from the guy who scoffed when I told him the topic). One woman brought up the fact that her kids listen to crap bands who approve drug usage, bad role models, money hungry, etc. And how, "she wishes more bands were like SP". I got a really good grade on the presentation, and no one argued my points (they argue everything). So it went extremely well, and here's a thank you to you guys! http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/biggrin.gif

 
Old 04-29-2002, 12:54 PM   #43
Mayfuck
 
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by Gooch:
Okay! I gave my speech the other day, and I just want to say THANK YOU ALL for your input. First off, the speech went extremely well, I actually had too much info for my alotted time. The whole class listened attentively the whole time. They asked questions, most of which expressed amazement at the info I was saying. As soon as it was over, one girl was like, "Wow, that was amazing. I never knew what a great band and bunch of people SP were". Even the teacher asked which album he should give a listen to, and after class asked again to make sure his facts were staight (this from the guy who scoffed when I told him the topic). One woman brought up the fact that her kids listen to crap bands who approve drug usage, bad role models, money hungry, etc. And how, "she wishes more bands were like SP". I got a really good grade on the presentation, and no one argued my points (they argue everything). So it went extremely well, and here's a thank you to you guys! http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/biggrin.gif
That's really good to hear.


 
 


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