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Old 08-10-2018, 05:34 PM   #61
johncg
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Or maybe you’re missing something.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:41 PM   #62
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I think you're missing a chromosome

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:46 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johncg View Post
I do think, however, that SP will be remembered as having made one of the most significant contributions to 20th century western popular music of any person, group, or artist.


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I honestly disagree. I think the prolificacy, innovation, and consistency of high-quality music created by SP between 1991-1996 easily rivals any of the most significant bodies of work created in 20th century western popular music.


Fight me.
no need to fight you, you are simply completely wrong. either you know next to no music of the 20th century, or you have absolutely no clue whatsoever about "western popular music" outside of North America, or both.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:24 PM   #64
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How about we all agree that they will be remembered somewhere between "a footnote in alternative rock" and "having made one of the most significant contributions to the 20th century western popular music of any person, group, or artist."

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:37 PM   #65
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Stating Siamese Dream is a cemented classic already implies kids will care in 20-30 years, that's what being a cemented classic means.
I said "I think it will"... But who the hell knows. A good argument could be made from both sides.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:41 PM   #66
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I think he was referring to it not making money.

Honestly, it might not have made money. I have no idea how much that type of production costs but it can't be cheap.
It certainly made money. Probably very good money. The tickets cost an arm and a leg after all.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:42 PM   #67
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The Smashing Pumpkins will be remembered for the "Rat in a Cage" song. And "1979"...

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:45 PM   #68
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You said the Siamese Dream wall of guitars had never been done before or since and it had and has. SD ripped the Nevermind and Loveless guitar sounds.
Bingo. The brilliance of the album is how they melded the MBV guitar sound so perfectly into these sprawling pop songs. It's a helluva an album... But nothing really all that innovative as far as the guitar sounds go.

I'd say the most innovative thing about it is how they worked Jimmy Chamberlins playing into these alternative rock songs. That's a huge part about what makes it such a special album... At least as far as I'm concerned.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:10 PM   #69
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You said the Siamese Dream wall of guitars had never been done before or since and it had and has. SD ripped the Nevermind and Loveless guitar sounds. And plenty of other contemporaries of SP did wall of sound guitars.
Truth

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:15 PM   #70
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SD ripped off Nevermind? give me a fuckin break. I thought it was stupid when Billy claimed Butch Vig helped Nirvana copy the Gish sound, but this is even stupider

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:18 PM   #71
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I knew you were gonna chime in. To me SD sounds like a direct response to Nevermind. The perfect production and grungier guitar sound for starters. Kurt, while using a different set up than Billy, had that thick wall of sound distortion going on Nevermind. I mean we’ve all seen the interviews were Billy said Nirvana’s success made him depressed and question what he was doing. He revamped the Pumpkins sound entirely to be more commercial because of Nirvana. Gish sounded more like Jane’s Addiction.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:21 PM   #72
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Nirvana did not invent the guitar wall sound I mean have you ever heard Black Sabbath

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:21 PM   #73
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Siamese Dream sounds more like Black Sabbath than it does Nirvana

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:52 PM   #74
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Billy started embracing a lot of the Nirvana tropes on Siamese Dream. Chorus and it's leads on Today, the grunge Cobain solo on Cherub Rock... They definitely embraced the movement that was going on.

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:48 AM   #75
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i'd like to embrace your dads booty

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:09 AM   #76
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Siamese Dream sounds more like Black Sabbath than it does Nirvana
It's the other way around. Nirvana sounded more like Sabbath. There's much more Boston and Queen on SD than there is Sabbath.

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:09 AM   #77
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Billy started embracing a lot of the Nirvana tropes on Siamese Dream. Chorus and it's leads on Today, the grunge Cobain solo on Cherub Rock... They definitely embraced the movement that was going on.
Exactly.

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 10:10 AM   #78
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Billy started embracing a lot of the Nirvana tropes on Siamese Dream. Chorus and it's leads on Today, the grunge Cobain solo on Cherub Rock... They definitely embraced the movement that was going on.
If "Siamese Dream sounds like Nevermind" reverts to "They were embracing the movement" then OK. Along with everyone else from the era? It doesn't really say much connecting Siamese Dream to Nevermind. It's not as if Cobain pioneered the chorus effect, and I'm not sure how the Cherub Rock solo is a 'grunge' solo or what a grunge solo actually is.

Cobain wouldn't be able to even play the goddam solo from Cherub Rock anyway.

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 10:47 AM   #79
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you seem to feel the need to curse a lot. why is that?

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 11:08 AM   #80
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Quote:
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Billy started embracing a lot of the Nirvana tropes on Siamese Dream. Chorus and it's leads on Today, the grunge Cobain solo on Cherub Rock... They definitely embraced the movement that was going on.
stop saying tropes.

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 11:57 AM   #81
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House of Ass and Fuzzyblows agree with each other which actually scientifically proves they are wrong and many scholars agree.

Corgan did not copy the Nevermind sound and SD sounds less like Nevermind than Ten, Dirt, or Badmotorfinger. Corgan did switch tack after Gish, because he saw all these other bands tapping into the hard rock and heavy metal of the 70s and 80s which is actually his own pedigree. So if we are blaming anyone for copying anyone, it's that they all copied Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath.

If you are looking for a most recent ancestor to Nevermind and Siamese Dream and a lot of 90s music in general, it's the Pixies and their soft verse/loud chorus dynamic

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 11:58 AM   #82
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Soma really aped that Lithium sound amirite

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 11:59 AM   #83
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Hummer is like a less good version of Polly

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 11:59 AM   #84
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smells like sweet sweet teen spirit

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 03:00 PM   #85
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redseagull, nobody was saying that the songwriting is even that similar. Aesthetic-wise Billy was definitely going for a big statement like Nirvana. Gish sounds like a totally different band. Billy re-stylized the band to be more commercial in the wake of Nirvana. SD has a similarly big slick drum and guitar sound throughout.

And actually Lithium has some of the fuzziest guitar on Nevermind since he was using a big muff on that song which, zing, Billy used on SD. Pwnt. Sk ck.

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 04:33 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artvase View Post
If "Siamese Dream sounds like Nevermind" reverts to "They were embracing the movement" then OK. Along with everyone else from the era? It doesn't really say much connecting Siamese Dream to Nevermind. It's not as if Cobain pioneered the chorus effect, and I'm not sure how the Cherub Rock solo is a 'grunge' solo or what a grunge solo actually is.

Cobain wouldn't be able to even play the goddam solo from Cherub Rock anyway.
If it was a "grunge Cobain solo" it would simply be the guitar playing the vocal melody, note for note. It's not. You're right, no way could Cobain hope to even approach the Cherub Rock solo.

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 05:05 PM   #87
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If it was a "grunge Cobain solo" it would simply be the guitar playing the vocal melody, note for note. It's not. You're right, no way could Cobain hope to even approach the Cherub Rock solo.
There are maybe two Cobain solos which copy the melody, everything else is the "strangled guitar" comparable to Cherub Rock.

I am sure that SD would sound very different if Nevermid had not existed, but I wouldn't go so far to say that Billy was aping the sound. Nevermind has a lot more space and the instruments are much more defined (this is not a value statement).

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 05:11 PM   #88
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Billy wanted to be so much like Kurt that he went and stuck his dick in the same place as him. Billy wishes he was loved and revered as much as Kurt. Billy already described the time he first heard Nevermind before its release at a party and how much it affected him and once the album was over they played it again. If you don't think Nevermind had an influence on Billy, then you're clueless. Nirvana were huge at the time and we all know Billy is an egomaniac who craves fame. Of course, Nevermind had an influence on Siamese Dream, but like all influences you take from it and make it your own. Kurt's fame was also a huge contributing factor. Billy wanted to be the voice of the generation. To put your penis inside Courtney, you gotta be pretty desperate.

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 05:53 PM   #89
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You gotta admit the solo on In Bloom was bad ass

 
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Old 08-11-2018, 05:54 PM   #90
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pretty sure corgan knew courtney before kurt did

 
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