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Old 06-26-2014, 03:39 AM   #121
magikarp99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool As Ice Cream View Post
comparing more fingerprints that were posted in this thread...

sequence IV: the shn set doesn't match the flac set, except for track 15.
i've also got that flac set, and the info file mentions that track 15 is missing, even though it is actually there. so clearly someone must've completed the flac set with a re-encoded track 15 from the shn set. (the fingerprints prove this.)
we should check if the flac set is the same as the shn set (if, for example, someone has burned the first 14 tracks on a cd-r and then ripped it to flac), or if it's a different source, maybe less processed.

mashed potatoes: matches, except for:
- d1 t01 happy fucking valentines
- d1 t08 bob speaks
- d2 t08 let's meet the band
- d3 t01 and from the west side...
- d3 t15 kill your parents
well, that's annoying. i'll look into this.
someone also added a d1 t15 sookie sookie [steppenwolf] (live 90) (fixed).shn to the shn set. not sure what has been fixed. maybe a glitch or something?

mcis demos II: no match.

machina acoustic demos: no match, except for track 4. weird.
Don't look too deeply into the mismatches at the moment. The Mashed Potatoes SHNs came with fingerprints and MD5s. The MD5s match but the fingerprints don't. Running the Linux version of SHNtool indicates that it doesn't like these particular SHN files for whatever reason.

So the conclusion at the moment is that something is going wrong with SHN -> FLAC conversion on some of the files on Linux. I will look into this.

 
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Old 06-26-2014, 03:41 AM   #122
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where do your flac sets of mcis demos II and machina acoustic demos come from, magikarp? and what about mashed potatoes?
did you download them as flac, or did you re-encode them yourself?

 
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Old 06-26-2014, 03:51 AM   #123
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I've not re-encoded anything. They're either from the Hub or from ZOMB.

 
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Old 06-26-2014, 04:40 AM   #124
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Fixed it. Will compare against my FFPs.

 
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Old 06-26-2014, 05:11 AM   #125
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Other things from the list you have that I don't:
  • That firewall track is FAEOMM
  • Reel Time Sessions\Disc 1\(03) Bye June.shn for some reason

Things that match/can be verified as good in your collection:
  • Mashed Potatoes (fingerprints match, verifies against supplied MD5s)
  • Gravity Demos (fingerprints match)
  • FAEOMM (fingerprints match)
  • Machina Acoustic Demos (fingerprints match)
  • MCIS Demos II (fingerprints match)
  • Nothing Ever Changes (fingerprints match, verifies against supplied MD5s)
  • Reel Time Sessions (fingerprints match, verifies against supplied MD5s)

Undesirable:
  • Sequence IV EQ'd - this is why the fingerprints don't match

Here is the source file for my copy of Seq. IV:
Code:
The Smashing Pumpkins
1995/05/31
Sequence IV
Chicago Recording Company

Tracklisting:

Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness
Tonight, Tonight
Jellybelly
Zero
Here Is No Why
Bullet with Butterfly Wings
To Forgive
Fuck You
Love
Cupid de Locke
Galapogos
Muzzle
Porcelina of the Vast Oceans
Lily


Notes:

On this date, a rough mix of the Mellon Collie album was 
created, dubbed Sequence Four. In other words, this tape was basically 
what Mellon Collie sounded like as of May 31st. All songs were rough 
takes and featured scratch vocals, if any; Galapogos even featured 
a solo that was omitted from the final version.


Apparently, Take Me Down was also recorded, but I don't have it, Sorry!

 
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Old 06-26-2014, 09:24 AM   #126
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yeah, but there is only one source of sequence IV to be out there, right?
isn't it most likely that this flac set is from the same source as the shn set (but worse, as the shn set must've been there first).

also, note how your flac set says "Apparently, Take Me Down was also recorded, but I don't have it, Sorry!", but track 15 is there, and the fingerprints match track 15 of the shn set... suspicious.

 
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Old 06-26-2014, 09:26 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magikarp99 View Post
Fixed it. Will compare against my FFPs.
so you had the wrong ffps? (or do the ffps in the header not match the fingerprints calculated from the audio content? that might explain why TLH complains about those specific flac files... one might wonder what went wrong when creating the flac files and writing the fingerprints in the header.)

 
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:55 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool As Ice Cream View Post
yeah, but there is only one source of sequence IV to be out there, right?
isn't it most likely that this flac set is from the same source as the shn set (but worse, as the shn set must've been there first).

also, note how your flac set says "Apparently, Take Me Down was also recorded, but I don't have it, Sorry!", but track 15 is there, and the fingerprints match track 15 of the shn set... suspicious.
So something is definitely odd about my copy of Sequnce IV. As you say, the source file isn't an exact match to the audio files because Take Me Down clearly is included.

BUT. Your version of Sequence IV is not the original circulated copy either. The original had noise reduction applied. But your copy has also had the equalisation changed using FreeFilter by someone else (Ivor the engine). I believe a copy circulates without the FreeFilter processing.

 
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Old 06-26-2014, 10:58 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool As Ice Cream View Post
so you had the wrong ffps? (or do the ffps in the header not match the fingerprints calculated from the audio content? that might explain why TLH complains about those specific flac files... one might wonder what went wrong when creating the flac files and writing the fingerprints in the header.)
Ah, I guess I was unclear. The files I was checking weren't FLACs they were SHNs. But FLAC fingerprints and SHN fingerprints are identical as the checksum is calculated on the raw waveform. I just used the term interchangeably. There was no problem with the wrong checksum being stored in the metadata.

The latest fingerprints I've compared against are not pre-calculated. They are definitely accurate.

 
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Old 06-26-2014, 11:32 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magikarp99 View Post
I believe a copy circulates without the FreeFilter processing.
AHA!

 
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Old 06-26-2014, 02:15 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool As Ice Cream View Post
AHA!
Still with the awful noise reduction though.

 
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Old 06-26-2014, 03:40 PM   #132
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The version of Sequence IV that I had and that was on the hub originally had a text file that mentioned "the twinkle effect" and a suspicion that it had been fucked with. I don't remember any actual mention of noise reduction in the lineage.

I'm painting the room I store all my old CDRs in and my stuff scattered in various boxes all over the place so I can't dig out the original if I even still have it or can find it.

Seems it has been repeatedly fucked with as there are now two fucked up sets and three different text files/lineages.

 
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Old 06-26-2014, 04:47 PM   #133
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The "twinkling" is referring to the aliasing of the MP3 artefacts, isn't it? It sounds like it's been badly encoded over and over again.

 
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Old 06-26-2014, 05:19 PM   #134
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That twinkling is not due to MP3 encoding. It is due to heavy noise reduction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pmack View Post
John Mulhausen ran the noise reduction. He got his copy direct from Onica, the girl who got it direct from Courtney Love.

Later, after she heard how bad the NR was, she let me take a crack at it, and she sent me her original tape. I am pretty sure I spun it off to DAT so I had a master copy to work from. (My NR was shit as well, but I don't remember how it compared to Mulhausen's.)

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pmack View Post
My recollection is that the original source tape is almost unlistenable. The heavy noise reduction was necessary because there is a monsterous hiss on the recording. I think we speculated at the time that it's either a heavily generated copy or there was a connection problem when the dub was made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pmack View Post
I am pretty sure my version wasn't circulated. It was between Onica and me. I may have made one or two copies, but it wasn't general knowledge that I had gotten the tape as well. I likely still have my NR copy, I'll try and find that and post it. That will be easier than the DAT, because all my CDs are in one giant box. My DATs are scattered throughout my house.

The deep backstory on this tape is it was originally part of a project called 'Vast Records'. There was some girl in Seattle whose name escapes me who had this little homemade record label. It was really just a vanity press, but this was around 95-96, where CDR technology was just becoming affordable, so she was looking to make CDs of hard to find stuff.

There was a group of people (you'd probably call them hoarders now) who had rare material they wanted archived in CDR format, so it was proposed that we all pool our material, get Vast to burn CDs, and distribute all the material among the group. In most cases, lots of stuff was proposed but very little of it actually ended up being produced.

...

- Onica provided Sequence 4, but to my knowledge it was never 'officially' pressed to CD for the members. By the time Mulhausen finished it the group had disbanded. I'm pretty sure John made his own CDs for people. I never had one, myself.

...

Back to Seq4-- as far as I know, both circulating copies were John's. He initially posted a handful of downgraded tracks anonymously, and a while later released the whole thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pmack View Post
I was looking for my Seq 4 edit on CD tonight and couldn't find it, but I located a box of DATs, and Sequence 4 raw is among the ones in there.

...
Quotes cut down to only sections regarding Sequence IV. But it's all worth a full read.

http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=167676

Last edited by magikarp99 : 06-26-2014 at 05:28 PM.

 
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Old 06-27-2014, 05:17 AM   #135
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I think the twinkle is due to the fact that it has been run through lossy digital editing processes multiple times, at least twice that we know of on the version with the twinkle. So basically it's been edited and renecncoded who knows how many times.

When this first came up I was really really good at spectrum analysis. I could open a file look at the spectrum and pretty much tell you the history of that file. I don't remember anything particular about this except for the fact that it was a total mystery looking at it's plot, it was MP3 but it was ugly.

I mentioned this in chat in the hub and I don't remember who it was but the person who had done the most recent round of digital fuckery on this just out of the blue happened to be on the hub and admitted they did it and promised to give me the version they had before they messed with it.

That was 14 years ago.

 
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:06 AM   #136
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The twinkle effect is a typical artifact of noise reduction. Essentially, when performing noise reduction, you identify the frequencies of the noise and reduce the volume of these frequencies across the recording in order eliminate it. However, the frequency of the noise often overlaps with the frequencies of the actual audio signal, this is especially common with high frequency sounds such as cymbals, and the problem is even worse when the noise levels are high. The result is that twinkling sound.

When dealing with so much background noise it is impossible to eliminate it without introducing these other (worse) issues. Often a compromise is the best solution, instead of eliminating the noise, you simply reduce its volume. The remaining noise is sometimes enough to mask these artifacts, but make the recording easier to listen to.

That said, there is a good chance the recording did go through some sort of lossy compression. The twinkling artifact is not enough to indicate this though.

 
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:15 AM   #137
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Rider!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rider View Post
http://home.cfl.rr.com/zwan/

I'm bored so I figured I'd post my bootlist it's still a work in progress have about another 200-300 shows to add to it.
http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=68743

Do you still have those tracks from the Spun soundtrack in FLAC?
https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/54111.html

Code:
Zwan - Spun Sound Track
Album
Performer/Composer 	Zwan
Format 	FLAC
Artist for Bootleg List 	Zwan
Index 	2236
Flawless Copy 	No
Filing Category 	dvd 013
Track List
Personal
	
Details
Spars 	????
Bootleg 	No
Lineage 	CDA > WAV > FLAC
Sound 	Stereo
Notes
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SPUN Movie Soundtrack Promo

Source : Promo Soundtrack CD of "SPUN" Movie
Lineage: CDA > WAV > FLAC
Used software : CDex Ver1.51
FLAC-1.1.0
FLACDrop
=================================================================================
!!!!! DO NOT SELL !!!!!
=================================================================================
I ripped off 3 songs from the original CD.

01. Freedom Ain't What It Used To Be (Inst) (Djali Zwan)
02. Love To Love (Djali Zwan - UFO Cover)
03. Always (Djali Zwan - Patsy Cline Cover)
* Noises were came from original CD.

Original CD's Track list:

01. The Number Of The Beast (Djali Zwan)
02. Freedom Ain't What It Used To Be (Djali Zwan)
03. Dr.Feelgood (Motley Crue)
04. Spun (Blonde from Fargo)
05. Destroyer Of Worlds (Bathory)
06. Junkie (Ozzy Osbourne)
07. Magnification (Yes)
08. Drive (Halford)
09. Circles (Peter Stomare)
10. Nobody's Fault (Phantom Planet)
11. Love To Love (Djali Zwan - UFO Cover)
12. Always (Djali Zwan - Patsy Cline Cover)
13. Instant Repeater '99 (The Soundtrack Of Our Lives)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think these circulate in FLAC at the moment, so it would be great if you would share.

 
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:49 AM   #138
Rider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magikarp99 View Post
Rider!


http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=68743

Do you still have those tracks from the Spun soundtrack in FLAC?
https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/54111.html

Code:
Zwan - Spun Sound Track
Album
Performer/Composer 	Zwan
Format 	FLAC
Artist for Bootleg List 	Zwan
Index 	2236
Flawless Copy 	No
Filing Category 	dvd 013
Track List
Personal
	
Details
Spars 	????
Bootleg 	No
Lineage 	CDA > WAV > FLAC
Sound 	Stereo
Notes
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SPUN Movie Soundtrack Promo

Source : Promo Soundtrack CD of "SPUN" Movie
Lineage: CDA > WAV > FLAC
Used software : CDex Ver1.51
FLAC-1.1.0
FLACDrop
=================================================================================
!!!!! DO NOT SELL !!!!!
=================================================================================
I ripped off 3 songs from the original CD.

01. Freedom Ain't What It Used To Be (Inst) (Djali Zwan)
02. Love To Love (Djali Zwan - UFO Cover)
03. Always (Djali Zwan - Patsy Cline Cover)
* Noises were came from original CD.

Original CD's Track list:

01. The Number Of The Beast (Djali Zwan)
02. Freedom Ain't What It Used To Be (Djali Zwan)
03. Dr.Feelgood (Motley Crue)
04. Spun (Blonde from Fargo)
05. Destroyer Of Worlds (Bathory)
06. Junkie (Ozzy Osbourne)
07. Magnification (Yes)
08. Drive (Halford)
09. Circles (Peter Stomare)
10. Nobody's Fault (Phantom Planet)
11. Love To Love (Djali Zwan - UFO Cover)
12. Always (Djali Zwan - Patsy Cline Cover)
13. Instant Repeater '99 (The Soundtrack Of Our Lives)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think these circulate in FLAC at the moment, so it would be great if you would share.

I'm sure they are burned somewhere. Whether they can be found and if found are on disk that is still readable that is doubtful.

 
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:51 AM   #139
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just noticed that my long gone DVD index is intact on that so knowing it is on DVD 013 makes chances higher, again if it's readable or not still a question. Been having bad luck with that lately, these should be on one giant spindle though so odds a slightly better.

 
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Old 06-27-2014, 03:21 PM   #140
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Well hopefully community seeded torrents can outlive CD-R shelf-life.

 
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:02 PM   #141
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I might have other Zwan stuff that has fallen out of rotation. I grabbed basically everything even at the point where everyone else stopped caring.

The only stuff I never had were some of those last shows that it seems no one recorded or were only recorded by Quinto and never circulated.

 
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:04 PM   #142
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Yeah. I was just looking at your list. You definitely have some stuff there that isn't circulating any more.

SPLRA is broken at the moment though, so I can only compare against my own collection.

 
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Old 06-28-2014, 10:17 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marrs-guitar View Post
I've got a speed corrected version (self-created) of the MCIS Rough Mix sourced from bmaromar's tape that I'll seed on zomb
It didn't fit to ZOMB's guidelines for sharing there unfortunately, so I've upped it to a hosting account.

http://forums.netphoria.org/showpost...65&postcount=2

 
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Old 06-28-2014, 11:24 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marrs-guitar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by magikarp99 View Post
If we really want to do speed correction, the lossless way to do this is to change the file to use a non-standard sampling rate.
That's how I've done it (if I understand you correctly).
Quote:
Originally Posted by marrs-guitar View Post
It didn't fit to ZOMB's guidelines for sharing there unfortunately, so I've upped it to a hosting account.

http://forums.netphoria.org/showpost...65&postcount=2
Thanks

Just so you know, this wasn't done losslessly.

 
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Old 06-30-2014, 03:22 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rider View Post
I might have other Zwan stuff that has fallen out of rotation. I grabbed basically everything even at the point where everyone else stopped caring.

The only stuff I never had were some of those last shows that it seems no one recorded or were only recorded by Quinto and never circulated.
Here is a list of other content that has fallen out of rotation. It would be great if you would upload these if you find the time.

2001-12-13 early - Index 2173 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53897.html
2001-12-14 late - Index 2170/2174 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53886.html https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53899.html
2002-04-05 DVD
2002-12-11 - Index 2168 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53879.html
2002-12-12 - Index 2139 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53783.html
2002-12-15 - Index 2141 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53789.html
2003-02-05 - Index 2212 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/54025.html
2003-03-25 VCD - Index 2159 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53847.html

Zwan Much Music VCD? - Index 2166 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081211...ils/53871.html

I think 2003-03-25 might be missing from SPLRA, and the Zwan Much Music VCD may be this http://www.splra.org/wiki/index.php?...Zwan2002-12-18

Okay. I just found a load of old files, including that Spun OST in FLAC. I'll review what I have and revise the list.

Edit: On review, I only had the Spun OST, and 2003-02-15 CD:UK VCD.

Last edited by magikarp99 : 06-30-2014 at 03:54 PM.

 
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:15 PM   #146
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Just wanted to jump in and say a giant preemptive thank you for putting this all together. I have so many shitty versions of half of these tapes and would love to just download it all as one package with the best versions. So, thanks for doing this.

 
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Old 06-30-2014, 09:39 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magikarp99 View Post
Here is a list of other content that has fallen out of rotation. It would be great if you would upload these if you find the time.

2001-12-13 early - Index 2173 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53897.html
2001-12-14 late - Index 2170/2174 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53886.html https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53899.html
2002-04-05 DVD
2002-12-11 - Index 2168 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53879.html
2002-12-12 - Index 2139 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53783.html
2002-12-15 - Index 2141 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53789.html
2003-02-05 - Index 2212 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/54025.html
2003-03-25 VCD - Index 2159 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53847.html

Zwan Much Music VCD? - Index 2166 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081211...ils/53871.html

I think 2003-03-25 might be missing from SPLRA, and the Zwan Much Music VCD may be this http://www.splra.org/wiki/index.php?...Zwan2002-12-18

Okay. I just found a load of old files, including that Spun OST in FLAC. I'll review what I have and revise the list.

Edit: On review, I only had the Spun OST, and 2003-02-15 CD:UK VCD.
You have the Spun soundtrack in FLAC? I thought the only copy circulating is the 128k mp3 source. (With distortion in Jesus, I around 3:21 making it un-listenable.)

I was part of the triple tree, and I have the sacred and profane tour comp somewhere, I will look for it. Worst case scenario, you could piece it back together from the full soundboards of the May 2000 shows.

 
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Old 06-30-2014, 09:40 PM   #148
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Also: a big thank you to everyone for putting this together. I have long since lost my FLAC and SHN copies.

 
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Old 06-30-2014, 09:54 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magikarp99 View Post
Here is a list of other content that has fallen out of rotation. It would be great if you would upload these if you find the time.

2001-12-14 late - Index 2170/2174 - https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53886.html https://web.archive.org/web/20081012...ils/53899.html
holy smokes i KNEW there was another once-circulating copy of this show. i even made a thread about it once. http://forums.netphoria.org/showthre...highlight=zwan

i would kill to have the other source, as its the one i remember having first and i was at the show so this recording is the one tied to my memory.

 
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Old 07-01-2014, 01:39 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonnieprince View Post
I was part of the triple tree, and I have the sacred and profane tour comp somewhere, I will look for it. Worst case scenario, you could piece it back together from the full soundboards of the May 2000 shows.
worst case scenario, i could just rip the cd i have. (there would be absolutely no point in reassembling this.)
but ideally, we'd like to locate the set of shn files that was shared originally.

 
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