To steal or not to steal...?

[ilikeplanets]

Oh what a lovely bottle of wine on the table...expensive and old. But it is supposed to be donated to some cause or other....do I take it?

[Starla]

Dissociative identity disorder
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Not to be confused with Dissocial personality disorder.
"Split personality" redirects here. For other uses, see Split personality (disambiguation).
Dissociative Identity Disorder
Classification and external resources
ICD-10 F44.8
ICD-9 300.14
MeSH D009105
Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a psychiatric diagnosis that describes a condition in which a person displays multiple distinct identities or personalities (known as alter egos or alters), each with its own pattern of perceiving and interacting with the environment. In the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD), the name for this diagnosis is multiple personality disorder (MPD). In the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) of the American Psychiatric Association (APA), the primary diagnostic system for psychiatric and psychological disorders within the United States and some other countries, the nomenclature for the disorder was changed from MPD to DID. In both systems of terminology, the diagnosis requires that at least two personalities routinely take control of the individual's behavior with an associated memory loss that goes beyond normal forgetfulness; in addition, symptoms cannot be the temporary effects of drug use or a general medical condition.[1]

There is a great deal of controversy surrounding the topic. There are many commonly disputed points about DID. These viewpoints critical of DID can be quite varied, with some taking the position that DID does not actually exist as a valid medical diagnosis, and others who think that DID may exist but is either always or usually an adverse side effect of therapy.[2][2][3][4][5][6] DID diagnoses appear to be almost entirely confined to the North American continent; reports from other continents are at significantly lower rates.[7][8]

Contents [hide]
1 Signs and symptoms
1.1 Physiological findings
2 Causes
2.1 Development theory
3 Diagnosis
3.1 Screening
3.2 Differential diagnoses
4 Treatment
5 Prognosis
6 Epidemiology
6.1 Comorbidity
7 History
8 Society and culture
9 Controversy
9.1 Over-representation in North America
10 See also
11 Footnotes
11.1 References
12 Further reading
13 External links


[edit] Signs and symptoms
Individuals diagnosed with DID demonstrate a variety of symptoms with wide fluctuations across time; functioning can vary from severe impairment in daily functioning to normal or high abilities. Symptoms can include:[9]

Multiple mannerisms, attitudes and beliefs that are not similar to each other
Unexplainable headaches and other body pains
Distortion or loss of subjective time
Comorbidity
Depersonalization
Derealization
Severe memory loss
Depression
Flashbacks of abuse or trauma
Unexplainable phobias
Sudden anger without a justified cause
Lack of intimacy and personal connections
Frequent panic/anxiety attacks
Auditory hallucinations of alternate personalities (though these hallucinations typically possess a quality that makes them distinct from psychotic disorders or schizophrenia)
Patients may experience an extremely broad array of other symptoms that resemble epilepsy, schizophrenia, anxiety disorders, mood disorders, post traumatic stress disorder, personality disorders, and eating disorders.[9]

[edit] Physiological findings
Reviews of the literature have discussed the findings of various psychophysiologic investigations of DID.[10][11] Many of the investigations ******* testing and observation in the one person but with different alters. Different alter states have shown distinct physiological markers[12] and some EEG studies have shown distinct differences between alters in some subjects,[13][14] while other subjects' patterns were consistent across alters.[15] Another study concluded that the differences involved intensity of concentration, mood changes, degree of muscle tension, and duration of recording, rather than some inherent difference between the brains of people diagnosed with DID.[16] Brain imaging studies have corroborated the transitions of identity in some DID sufferers.[17] A link between epilepsy and DID has been postulated but this is disputed.[18][19] Some brain imaging studies have shown differing cerebral blood flow with different alters,[20][21][22] and distinct differences overall between subjects with DID and a healthy control group.[23] A different imaging study showed that findings of smaller hippocampal volumes in patients with a history of exposure to traumatic stress and an accompanying stress-related psychiatric disorder were also demonstrated in DID.[24] This study also found smaller amygdala volumes. Studies have demonstrated various changes in visual parameters between alters.[25][26][27] One twin study showed hereditable factors were present in DID.[28]

[edit] Causes
This disorder is theoretically linked with the interaction of overwhelming stress, traumatic antecedents,[29] insufficient childhood nurturing, and an innate ability to dissociate memories or experiences from consciousness.[9] A high percentage of patients report child abuse.[5][30] People diagnosed with DID often report that they have experienced severe physical and sexual abuse, especially during their childhood.[31] Several psychiatric rating scales of DID sufferers suggested that DID is strongly related to childhood trauma rather than to an underlying electrophysiological dysfunction.[32]

Others believe that the symptoms of DID are created iatrogenically by therapists using certain treatment techniques with suggestible patients,[2][4][5][6] but this idea is not universally accepted.[30][33][34][35][36][37] Skeptics have observed that a small number of therapists are responsible for diagnosing the majority of individuals with DID; that patients do not report sexual abuse or manifest alters until after treatment has begun; and the alternative explanation of the "alters" being rule-governed social roles rather than separate personalities.[6]

[edit] Development theory
It has been theorized that severe sexual, physical, or psychological trauma in childhood predisposes an individual to the development of DID. The steps in the development of a dissociative identity are theorized to be as follows:

The child is harmed by a trusted caregiver (often a parent or guardian) and splits off the awareness and memory of the traumatic event to survive in the relationship.
The memories and feelings go into the subconscious and are experienced later in the form of a separate personality.
The process happens repeatedly at different times so that different personalities develop, containing different memories and performing different functions that are helpful or destructive.
Dissociation becomes a coping mechanism for the individual when faced with further stressful situations.[38]
[edit] Diagnosis
The diagnosis of Dissociative identity disorder is defined by criteria in the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). The DSM-II used the term multiple personality disorder, the DSM-III grouped the diagnosis with the other four major dissociative disorders, and the DSM-IV-TR categorizes it as dissociative identity disorder. The ICD-10 continues to list the condition as multiple personality disorder.

The diagnostic criteria in section 300.14 (dissociative disorders) of the DSM-IV require that an adult, for non-physiological reasons, be recurrently controlled by multiple discrete identity or personality states while also suffering extensive memory lapses.[39] While otherwise similar, the diagnostic criteria for children requires also ruling out fantasy.

Diagnosis should be performed by a psychiatrist or psychologist who may use specially designed interviews (such as the SCID-D) and personality assessment tools to evaluate a person for a dissociative disorder.[1]

The psychiatric history of individuals diagnosed with DID frequently contain multiple previous diagnoses of various mental disorders and treatment failures.

[edit] Screening
The SCID-D[40] may be used to make a diagnosis. This interview takes about 30 to 90 minutes depending on the subject's experiences.

The Dissociative Disorders Interview Schedule (DDIS)[41] is a highly structured interview which discriminates between various DSM-IV diagnoses. The DDIS can usually be administered in 30–45 minutes.

The Dissociative Experiences Scale (DES)[42] is a simple, quick, and validated[43] questionnaire that has been widely used to screen for dissociative symptoms. Tests such as the DES provide a quick method of screening subjects so that the more time-consuming structured clinical interview can be used in the group with high DES scores. Depending on where the cutoff is set, people who would subsequently be diagnosed can be missed. An early recommended cutoff was 15-20[44] and in one study a DES with a cutoff of 30 missed 46 percent of the positive SCID-D[40] diagnoses and a cutoff of 20 missed 25%.[45] The reliability of the DES in non-clinical samples has been questioned.[46] There is also a DES scale for children and DES scale for adolescents. One study argued that old and new trauma may interact, causing higher DID item test scores.[29]

[edit] Differential diagnoses
Conditions which may present with similar symptoms ******* borderline personality disorder, and the dissociative conditions of dissociative amnesia and dissociative fugue.[47] The clearest distinction is the lack of discrete formed personalities in these conditions. Malingering may also be considered, and schizophrenia, although those with this last condition will have some form of delusions, hallucinations or thought disorder.[47]

[edit] Treatment
Treatment of DID may attempt to reconnect the identities of disparate alters into a single functioning identity. In addition or instead, treatment may focus on symptoms, to relieve the distressing aspects of the condition and ensure the safety of the individual. Treatment methods may ******* psychotherapy and medications for comorbid disorders.[1] Some behavior therapists initially use behavioral treatments such as only responding to a single identity, and using more traditional therapy once a consistent response is established.[48] It has been stated that treatment recommendations that follow from models that do not believe in the traumatic origins of DID might be harmful due to the fact that they ignore the posttraumatic symptomatology of people with DID.[35]

[edit] Prognosis
DID does not resolve spontaneously, and symptoms vary over time. Individuals with primarily dissociative symptoms and features of posttraumatic stress disorder normally recover with treatment. Those with comorbid addictions, personality, mood, or eating disorders face a longer, slower, and more complicated recovery process. Individuals still attached to abusers face the poorest prognosis; treatment may be long-term and consist solely of symptom relief rather than personality integration. Changes in identity, loss of memory, and awaking in unexplained locations and situations often leads to chaotic personal lives.[9] Individuals with the condition commonly attempt suicide.[49]

[edit] Epidemiology
The DSM does not provide an estimate of incidence; however the number of diagnoses of this condition has risen sharply. A possible explanation for the increase in incidence and prevalence of DID over time is that the condition was misdiagnosed as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or other such disorders in the past; another explanation is that an increase in awareness of DID and child sexual abuse has led to earlier, more accurate diagnosis. Other clinicians believe that DID is an iatrogenic condition overdiagnosed in highly suggestive individuals,[50] though there is disagreement over the ability of the condition to be induced by hypnosis.[33][34] Figures from psychiatric populations (inpatients and outpatients) show a wide diversity from different countries:[51]
Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality Disorder)
Dissociative identity disorder (previously known as multiple personality disorder) is a fairly common effect of severe trauma during early childhood, usually extreme, repetitive physical, sexual, and/or emotional abuse.

What Is Dissociative Identity Disorder?
Most of us have experienced mild dissociation, which is like daydreaming or getting lost in the moment while working on a project. However, dissociative identity disorder is a severe form of dissociation, a mental process, which produces a lack of connection in a person's thoughts, memories, feelings, actions, or sense of identity. Dissociative identity disorder is thought to stem from trauma experienced by the person with the disorder. The dissociative aspect is thought to be a coping mechanism -- the person literally dissociates himself from a situation or experience that's too violent, traumatic, or painful to assimilate with his conscious self.

Is Dissociative Identity Disorder Real?
You may wonder if dissociative identity disorder is real. After all, understanding the development of multiple personalities is difficult, even for highly trained experts. But dissociative identity disorder does exist. It is the most severe and chronic manifestation of the dissociative disorders that cause multiple personalities.

Other types of dissociative disorders defined in the DSM-IV, the main psychiatry manual used to classify mental illnesses, ******* dissociative amnesia, dissociative fugue, and depersonalization disorder.

What Are the Symptoms of Dissociative Identity Disorder?
Dissociative identity disorder is characterized by the presence of two or more distinct or split identities or personality states that continually have power over the person's behavior. With dissociative identity disorder, there's also an inability to recall key personal information that is too far-reaching to be explained as mere forgetfulness. With dissociative identity disorder, there are also highly distinct memory variations, which fluctuate with the person's split personality.

The "alters" or different identities have their own age, sex, or race. Each has his or her own postures, gestures, and distinct way of talking. Sometimes the alters are imaginary people; sometimes they are animals. As each personality reveals itself and controls the individuals' behavior and thoughts, it's called "switching." Switching can take seconds to minutes to days. When under hypnosis, the person's different "alters" or identities may be very responsive to the therapist's requests.

Along with the dissociation and multiple or split personalities, people with dissociative disorders may experience any of the following symptoms:

Depression
Mood swings
Suicidal tendencies
Sleep disorders (insomnia, night terrors, and sleep walking)
Anxiety, panic attacks, and phobias (flashbacks, reactions to stimuli or "triggers")
Alcohol and drug abuse
Compulsions and rituals
Psychotic-like symptoms (including auditory and visual hallucinations)
Eating disorders
Other symptoms of dissociative identity disorder may ******* headache, amnesia, time loss, trances, and "out of body experiences." Some people with dissociative disorders have a tendency toward self-persecution, self-sabotage, and even violence (both self-inflicted and outwardly directed). As an example, someone with dissociative identity disorder may find themselves doing things they wouldn't normally do such as speeding, reckless driving, or stealing money from their employer or friend, yet they feel they are being compelled to do it. Some describe this feeling as being a passenger in their body rather than the driver. In other words, they truly believe they have no choice.
Diagnosis in
Clinical Psychology








Page Contents: Introduction / “Real” Psychological Diagnosis / Emotions—Not Historical Truth






Introduction:

Medicine

and

Psychology


The practice of medicine and the practice of psychology have evolved from two different traditions. The practice of medicine evolved as masters passed on to their students various oral traditions about healing treatments and remedies. It didn’t even matter if anyone knew why a treatment worked; all that mattered was that someone could say, “In these circumstances, this treatment seems to work.” If an extract of willow bark relieved a headache, then so be it. Only later would scientific inquiry be utilized both to find new treatments and to validate old ones—such as discovering in willow bark the chemical we now know as aspirin.

Since oral lore decisively linked the illness with the cure, medical treatment then, as now, therefore depends on diagnosis. First the symptoms are carefully identified, and then the cure—traditionally associated with those particular symptoms—is applied.

Psychology works on entirely different principles. Unlike medicine with its traditional history of effective remedies, psychology began, more or less, by looking for problems that could be treated with known scientific principles. Such was the early psychological clinic started by Lightner Witmer [1] in 1896, when Witmer applied abstract psychological principles to solve educational problems.

Hence the tradition of psychology is to use scientific research to investigate known psychological procedures to determine how effective they might be in treating a particular symptom. Essentially, every time someone comes up with a new therapeutic idea, it must be investigated with sound research to determine if it really works. A failure to recognize this fact leads to a massive confusion about the role of diagnosis in clinical psychology.

For example, if someone is depressed, we might, in a particular case, diagnose it with the full DSM-IV [2] nosology of Major Depressive Disorder, Recurrent, Severe Without Psychotic Features, With Melancholic Features, With Full Interepisode Recovery, Superimposed on Dysthymic Disorder. But what does this tell us? Not much.

A physician might say, “OK. It’s major depression, let’s try an antidepressant medication.” Fair enough. After all, if someone breaks his leg the treatment doesn’t hinge on why he broke his leg. And, to be more fair, let’s acknowledge the field of medicine called “wellness” which does look at some of the “whys” of illness and treatment.

But a psychologist has to ask why. “Yes, but why is he depressed?” And in answer to this question the diagnosis tells us nothing.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



“Real”

Psychological

Diagnosis


Real psychological diagnosis, therefore, is not the naming of the disorder, it’s the naming of the “Why” of the symptoms associated with the disorder. And real diagnosis emerges from within the treatment itself. It comes from talking about your life, listening for unconscious conflicts, and interpreting dreams. It’s really a bit like defining a hole by marking out the contour of its rim. First you determine what’s there—or to be more accurate in speaking about a hole, what’s lacking. Then the work focuses on what the lack signifies. You have to look honestly at your life—especially your past. You have to recognize all that you’ve done and all that you’ve failed to do. And then you can begin to make peace with the lack, to listen to what it tells you unconsciously, and to adjust your life to accommodate it.

Naturally, this approach drives managed care and insurance companies nuts. Just like our culture in general, they become nervous around ambiguity and mystery. They demand the outward appearance of legal “truth.” And, like most everyone else, they’re quite willing to settle for illusions such as diagnoses. It keeps them happy.







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Emotions—

Not

Historical

Truth


If, for one reason or another, you manage to get a psychological diagnosis, you really have to be careful, because if a diagnosis becomes a matter of identity based in pride, it can be almost impossible to give up that identity in order to find true healing.

All of which brings me to a final point about searching through past events in order to make a diagnosis. Remembering the past is of no value in psychotherapy except in recovering any emotions from the past which were never properly voiced and which therefore keep you from having open and honest interactions with others.

For example, during the psychotherapeutic process you will experience many emotions that are similar to the emotions you felt as a child. Disappointment. Anger. Confusion. Feeling misunderstood. Feeling devalued. Feeling abandoned. Many different events—some of them just chance occurrences during psychotherapy (for example, a key to the restroom not in its proper place; a session cancelled because of the psychotherapist’s illness; etc.) and some of them deliberate therapeutic interventions by the psychotherapist (for example, a charge for a missed session; an interpretation of a dream that touches a truth you don’t want to hear; a calculated decision not to respond to an e-mail message; a declined invitation to a wedding or graduation; etc.)—will trigger these emotions.

This triggering process is technically called transference.

So, when you feel an emotion in psychotherapy, the therapeutic task will be to name it as an emotion and understand it as an emotion—not get caught in it as if it were your helpless destiny. For if you get caught in it, you will feel like a victim and will blame the psychotherapist for your pain, and the entire therapeutic process will feel like judgment and criticism. And then, in deep bitterness, you will want to “get away” from the psychotherapy just as you wanted to get away from the original emotions as a child.

Psychotherapy, therefore, isn’t necessarily a matter of discovering historical truth; it’s about learning how to function capably and honestly in the present. To go about that process, one works with emotions, wherever they come from. Historical events can fall where they want.

Well, then, do you still want a diagnosis? Then open up the DSM-IV and pick one.

The real issue in regard to healing is not the diagnosis but the ability to retire the diagnosis for the sake of health.

So ask yourself, “What is more important? Having the diagnosis, or being free of it?”


Dissociative Identity Disorder
(formerly Multiple Personality Disorder)
Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), previously referred to as multiple personality disorder (MPD), is a dissociative disorder involving a disturbance of identity in which two or more separate and distinct personality states (or identities) control the individual's behavior at different times. When under the control of one identity, the person is usually unable to remember some of the events that occurred while other personalities were in control. The different identities, referred to as alters, may exhibit differences in speech, mannerisms, attitudes, thoughts, and gender orientation. The alters may even differ in "physical" properties such as allergies, right-or-left handedness, or the need for eyeglass prescriptions. These differences between alters are often quite striking.

The person with DID may have as few as two alters, or as many as 100. The average number is about 10. Often alters are stable over time, continuing to play specific roles in the person's life for years. Some alters may harbor aggressive tendencies, directed toward individuals in the person's environment, or toward other alters within the person.

At the time that a person with DID first seeks professional help, he or she is usually not aware of the condition. A very common complaint in people with DID is episodes of amnesia, or time loss. These individuals may be unable to remember events in all or part of a proceeding time period. They may repeatedly encounter unfamiliar people who claim to know them, find themselves somewhere without knowing how they got there, or find items that they don't remember purchasing among their possessions.

Often people with DID are depressed or even suicidal, and self-mutilation is common in this group. Approximately one-third of patients complain of auditory or visual hallucinations. It is common for these patients to complain that they hear voices within their head.

Treatment for DID consists primarily of psychotherapy with hypnosis. The therapist seeks to make contact with as many alters as possible and to understand their roles and functions in the patient's life. In particular, the therapist seeks to form an effective relationship with any personalities that are responsible for violent or self-destructive behavior, and to curb this behavior. The therapist seeks to establish communication among the personality states and to find ones that have memories of traumatic events in the patient's past. The goal of the therapist is to enable the patient to achieve breakdown of the patient's separate identities and their unification into a single identity.

Retrieving and dealing with memories of trauma is important for the person with DID, because this disorder is believed to be caused by physical or sexual abuse in childhood. Young children have a pronounced ability to dissociate, and it is believed that those who are abused may learn to use dissociation as a defense. In effect, the child slips into a state of mind in which it seems that the abuse is not really occurring to him or her, but to somebody else. In time, such a child may begin to split off alter identities. Research has shown that the average age for the initial development of alters is 5.9 years.

Children with DID have a great variety of symptoms, including depressive tendencies, anxiety, conduct problems, episodes of amnesia, difficulty paying attention in school, and hallucinations. Often these children are misdiagnosed as having schizophrenia. By the time the child reaches adolescence, it is less difficult for a mental health professional to recognize the symptoms and make a diagnosis of DID.


Permission is granted for this fact sheet to be reproduced in its entirety, including the NAMI name, service mark, and contact information. (March 2000)

msk5874 writes. "I try to do things that would make make them all content or happy like wearing a baseball cap a lot, boxers and even picking up little things like you would for you would for a son or daughter or daughter. I am an adult female. I am right now aware of five alters."

Sandi writes: "I have had what at the time they called MPD for as long as I could remember...or not remember. Now I know how to curb it and realize when it may occur. I was a child at 22... I was a man but really a female. It helps to get to know yourself and always remember you. If you even think you are getting disoriented and confused.....look at a picture of yourself doing some thing you remember doing that made you peaceful and happy."

Observations
Submitted by Steve
I have to start by telling you I am not multiple. I was dating a woman who is. And although it was for a short time, I have a couple observations.

I had an easy time accepting her; not just a main but all of her alternates.
She was just plain honest and I kept an open mind. I met several of her members (alters) and tended to treat them all the same. As an individual I cared for.

The second belief I carry is that the sum of the parts are always greater than the whole. We all change moods and show different parts and facets of ourselves. But in the case of a person with MPD, the facets are individuals.

More than happy to discuss further but this is healing for me as well. Thank you for a forum to speak in.

Writing
On writing, margar2081 writes: "I found that writing down my emotions and feelings on paper not only helps me to cope but as well catch the identities in action."

Panic
Submitted by Restin Wells

When I had sustained fear coming from a part still in amnesia, I couldn't reason with it, but found that jacking up intense anger would cover the fear. I also could stop a nightmare by turning on red-hot anger at it. It takes some practice, and helps to invent a mental picture of someone to get angry at for doing something to you. And remember to act responsibly with the anger. Hit a stack of newspapers, not another person!

We are DID
But realize we DIDN'T
Submitted by Restin Wells

I like the title Sheila DID because it hints at something we DID people usually have to contend with. We feel we did some bad things in our past, but if we can get through our amnesia, we find that we DIDN'T really do it the way we thought. I assumed Sheila DID, but really Sheila DIDN'T. I like the idea of the person who wrote you the letter where she reminds herself it is the year 2000 when she has fear come from an alter of a previous age. A super keyword to hold onto the child while you bring further assurance and reasoning!

Communicating with Alters
Submitted by dream chaser, robin!

I've had DID for ten yrs and from the people that believed me gave me several ideas in how to control the "parts" from self-injury to the adult body. I have rules inside for my 5 "parts" we've learned to communicate the others and myself by putting a marker board inside to let me know after in come back about who came out and what
happened while they took over.

The little things that would help me to have some idea to what went on while I was hiding. they also have the rule that support groups are for adults not children. I have all children alters from age 3 up to 12yrs. I don't know if anyone ever had a board for the inside but it works for me.

[Trotskilicious]

what are you doing ms. starla

[Starla]

Why I am going to pretend I am a girl online from now on
cooled by mauler

(idea) by moJoe Fri Mar 17 2000 at 23:52:47

I have noticed the most amazing thing. I actually noticed it a long time ago and it seems to be the same no matter where I go. There are usually more males than females and the males drool all over and pay lip service to the females all day long simply because, well, they are female.

If you are male, most men seem to have no interest in you what-so-ever. They have made up their mind about you and already decided to ignore you before you have even opened your mouth to speak.

If you are female you get the benefit of the doubt and lots of positive attention and, dare I say ass-kissing; in hopes of what I still have yet to discover. Net sex? Flirting? hopes that they will fly out to you and fuck your brains out? what? To this day it boggles me.

Men and women on-line are the same as far as I am concerned. Often men are too busy trying to suck up to girls and girls are often too busy trying to get men to suck up to them to be very interesting, but other than that they have equal potential to be interesting or uninteresting in my eyes. I have counted the people that I consider my friends on here and to be quite honest, the male/female ratio is quite equal. I have counted my nodes about females and my nodes about males on here, and they are exactly equal.

None of this makes me any better than you, and in fact I am sure you have noticed this same phenomenon as well. You go to a new site; you are a guy. You don't know anyone and no one will even acknowledge your existence because they are too busy playing the respective rolls of sucker and suckee; but if you happen to have a female nick name, well then, you get all but dragged into the conversation kicking and screaming.

As much as I love courting and am facinated with sex, I often times think that even people who think its sinful or bad and don't have it, let it run them because of it. It has a time and place.
I like it! 2 C!s

(idea) by Quizro Sat Mar 18 2000 at 0:07:27

You know, I'd never realized before this just how attractive moJoe is. Suddenly I find I am no longer able to ignore him, and wonder if perhaps he will consent to Net sex with me.

I like it! 1 C!

(personal) by Segnbora-t Sat Mar 18 2000 at 0:29:21

Of course, there are plenty of women using ambiguous or male pseudonyms online, to avoid being besieged by men, so they can do whatever it is that they are on the Internet to do in the first place. (This probably contributes to the amount of attention those who are willing to admit to being female have. But presumably those who continue using identifiably female names don't object to the attention.)
There is a small but appreciable number of men who think that being female and saying anything remotely sex-positive online constitutes asking for all sorts of propositions. No one from Everything has done this, but I've gotten mail from guys who saw my web site and sent me propositions for group sex, or who started conversations and then were angry and offended when I said no, I wouldn't go out with someone I only know from a total of two e-mails.

So I approve of moJoe's strategy. Let the jerks be deceived; maybe if they find out the truth they will learn some manners.

I like it! 2 C!s

(idea) by amelinda Fri Apr 14 2000 at 6:33:55

I'm with Segnbora-t on this one. Damn, it must be nice to have actual conversations with people online without having to pull out your intellectual penis and making it clear that you know how to use it.
I suppose it doesn't help those poor sods that I use my real name (Lillith) or a definitely feminine name (such as amelinda) and that I am pretty openly sex-positive. Somehow, I don't get a lot of propositions, but that could be because I intimidate them.

To the original noder: Yes, I would be willing to bet that those males whereof you speak really do think that they might eventually get those women to fly out there and fuck them silly. Procreation urges are at the base of a very large percentage of all human interaction.

See also: using your real name on the internet

I like it!

(idea) by Saige Thu Apr 20 2000 at 15:47:03

Though it is an interesting idea, I'd like to see if you could actually pull it off. It surely isn't as simple as changing your alias and saying you're female. It's not like the only differences between males and females are whether they have an innie or outie between the legs.
Personality is rather gender-based, I believe. And many personalities are rather clear on if they are masculine or feminine, and it seems like it would be difficult or impossible to hide it. Of course, it depends on where you are - an online game full of hormone-crazed teenage boys will go nuts if you just say you're female, without really giving it any analysis. A more balanced forum, and especially a place such as Everything, where it's all about writing and that's where our personality is most evident, is more likely to be able to construct a realistic image of who's on the other end.

Our lives create who we are, and the life of a person is very much affected by the gender.

I don't know why the heck I did this so seriously. Oh well...

I like it! 1 C!

(idea) by yam Thu Apr 20 2000 at 17:13:51

I'm sure you could pull it off. Yes, there are cultural differences in male / female personalities, but the average amount of "distinction" between male and female is smaller than the potential range of distinct personalities within either gender just due to the wonderful variations of individualism. Once someone's gender has been announced online, most people will happily continue with that assumption unless provided with evidence to the contrary - and the presence of ostensibly "male" or "female" writing traits will almost always just be chalked up to the person's individuality, unless they're really overdoing it, like in the case of a boy pretending to be a girl and discussing his hypothetical breasts endlessly - but even then, they're more likely to just be tagged as an irritating girl with low self esteem rather than someone lying about their gender. If you're serious about it, you can pull it off. I've successfully gone as a boy - not just the assumption that I'm male, which all girls with ambiguous handles get, but like, with the tacit expression that I was male - and no one noticed my lack of a Y chromosome. This was in an online community where everyone knew my writing style and knew me in person - a new handle and a concentrated effort not to break character was all it took. I've also seen boys successfully be girls, and weirdest of all was the tracker who got a sex change operation - his/her posting style didn't really change, but once it got out that he was now a girl, everyone suddenly started to notice the "girly" aspects of it. All it takes is being serious and in letting people know somehow what your gender is supposed to be.

But why bother? Despite all the hooha, there's not really all that much difference in how people are treated online, except when you're talking about sex. That's the great thing about being online. No one has to know what you keep in your pants and it doesn't really matter.
I like it! 1 C!

(idea) by ModernAngel Sun Apr 30 2000 at 18:17:21

Way back in my AOL newbie days, I did this. "ModernAngel" started out as the screenname of an assumed persona, "Brandy Leigh McLeod". It was educational. Since "angel" seems to equate to "female" in many virtual arenas, I still get the occasional "Wanna cyber?" query, or (much more often), an unsolicited, private "hi." that I am supposed to pick up and run with. On several occasions since I dropped the pretense of femininity, I've had people say to me "dude, get a more masculine nick" - because the nick screws up their expectations of how they might want to interact with me. It starts with a sweeping generalization of who I am, and a nick is supposed to somehow encapsulate everything of interest about me...
It is ridiculously easy to pull off, but the novelty wears thin quickly. (Or did for me, anyway.) Contrary to Saige's theory, I think gender cues determine a lot of what we read into a chat/post author's personality/style, not vice versa.
I like it! 1 C!

(idea) by knar Sun May 06 2001 at 21:34:20

Two years ago, I programmed an artificial intelligence bot for mIRC (famous IRC client), which now has become quite known in Spain (despite it consists on few more than a bunch of well-placed ifs).

In order to test it, I made the bot join some channels in the Spanish network and open some queries (an easy way to implement a Turing test). Everything went normally. Some people soon ignored the bot while others had quite long conversations with it.

When I was about to release version 2.0 and my bot was getting quite famous, someone suggested he could make a female personality for it (it's modular, so you can select between several possible "minds" and add more). He took the original bot AI, changed all adjectives to their feminine equivalents, modified some (but few) sentences from its databases, and added lots of sentences related to sex, so that it could recognize most sex-related words and give different responses.

Before including it in version 2.0, I wanted to try some Turing Tests with this new personality, so I gave the bot a female nick (Silvie) and made it join channel #amor (#love in Spanish). I didn't have to open any query. I counted thirty-six queries in a minute. And I'm not joking. I repeated this test several times and I got an average of twenty queries by spending just a minute on the channel, while with the male personality I got none. But there is something even more pathetic: many times, after repeating the experiment two or three men had sent the bot their phone.

What else can I say? We are dumb. I like to think that I'm not, but... what if I'm wrong, and all men, including me, are dumb?

I like it! 2 C!s

(idea) by ConfusionTheWaitress Wed May 23 2001 at 0:34:25

Experiment
Given that it must be common knowledge to anyone with half a brain that all nubile young girls in cybersex chatrooms are in fact men or boys of varying ages, a scientific test was needed to measure exactly how much people cared.
Process
Logged on to an IRC server and joined a few cybersex channels using the nickname PretendingToBeAGirl.

Outcome
At first there was silence. Then a bleep. A private message, contravening the channel rules about asking before messaging but, hey, I didn't really care...


(namewithheld) so ur a guy?
(PretendingToBeAGirl) yep. hello. wanna cyber?
(namewithheld) sure, okay.
I. Kid. You. Not. I pretended to be a busty female future-cop in an all-over rubber uniform (his idea) and he was a criminal that I was to - ahem - interrogate. I haven't laughed so damn much in ages.

I got a few other messages as well. Some just curious about my nick and some didn't mind a bit of cybersex. Sure, it got boring after a while but, still, it was hilarious while it lasted.

Conclusion
In conclusion, it is common knowledge to anyone with half a brain that all nubile young girls in cybersex chat rooms are in fact men or boys of varying ages and, to be honest, there are people that really don't care, so long as you're willing to be what they want you to be. And, to be honest, why should people care? It's not as if any long-lasting relationships have emerged from online cybersex. Most people are blissfully aware that the woman on the end of a sex phone-line looks nothing like the woman on the sex phone-line advert but still, somehow, people get off to them. Just as long as people get what they want, I don't see any harm in that.

update: i have also tried the same 'experiment' with the nickname PretendingToBeABoy and considerably more successful results. boys would message me and think it 'kinda cute' when i told them of my plan and then they'd pretend to be a girl.

I like it! 3 C!s

(idea) by superfly Tue Aug 21 2001 at 8:28:32

Whenver I go to the sex chat rooms on Yahoo I am a 26 year old Japanese girl. I have a couple of pics on my harddrive that look quite amateurish and when I am (invariably) asked for my pics, I dutifully send them off, much to the jubilation of the recipient.
I first did it because of the immense competition to get anybody's attention in those rooms. The change was instantaneous and profound. At first I wasn't quite prepared because I hadn't developed my new character yet and wasn't sure who I was going to be. However after a while it all came together.
I guess the attraction is that you can be the fantasy girl that you desire, and say exactly the stuff that you want to be told. I suppose that you sort of fall into the mind of the unwitting guy on the other end.

And it's true, even after it's all said and done, the guys are really nice to you. I actually feel a little guilty because it turns out this guy seems like a really nice person. He still thinks there is this hot chick in Japan who talks to him online and is willing to show her naked body to him. If I'm not careful he might fall in love.

Uh-oh, I have a sinking feeling that I just shared way too much
Resolved QuestionShow me another »
Is it illegal to pretend to be someone else online?
Okay, for the past three years my friend has been pretending to be someone else online. I know it's completely unethical and unmoral, it's just a joke that she got way too involved in. She used fake pictures, a fake name, everything. I'm worried that she might take it too far. Can she get sued for this, or anything of the sort?
2 years ago
Additional Details
Well, from what I understand she isn't really hurting anybody. It's not like the Megan Mier case, in a way it is, but she isn't doing to purposely hurt somebody. Is it still fraud?
2 years ago

Also, it's not an act meant to hurt the persons reputation.
2 years ago

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by Matty . Asia Member since:
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Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
If I'm pretending to be another real person who, then yes, "impersonation" is illegal.
If I make up a fictional person then often no. It depends.

If you sign up for websites and services and lie when it is required to give the real information, then this is illegal.

However if you're on a site which does not request this information and you use a fictional name or "alias" this is usually fine.

Simply:
Impersonation = bad
Alias = usually good

I have several Aliases over the internet simply because I have relations with some businesses and organisations. I also have some opinions on matters that should not be reflected on these organisations.

So in different places, I can be different people for different purposes.
But I never impersonate an existing person. I attribute each of my aliases to a different aspect of my life.

Using another persons photo however is very dangerous and illegal, I would advise your friend to cease using other peoples photos immediately.

2 years ago
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by Rob (and sometimes my wife Dee) Member since:
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Absolutely. Here's a link to a news story that addresses a few people facing charges because of actions they performed online under a fake name (on MySpace).

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081120/us_n…
2 years ago
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It's called fraud, and that my girl is very much illegal. If the person you are imitating finds trouble because of this he can sue you for damages, with the possibly of it being considered as punitive damages (Basically put, you can be prosecuted) being a worst case scenario.
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i don't know if u will o 2 jail but u might get sued
2 years ago
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Of course it is. Remember what happened to Megan Meier? It's called slander. You pretend to be someone to damage that person's reputation.
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I don't no............ If it's just a screen name and not someone's real name then it SHOULD be ok.

For example my screen name is John but I say I don't have a webcam or a camera. I can see were your coming from trying to protect yourself online. The best thing to do is to NOT talk to any strangers at all then anyone who needs to know you knows you.
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If she is pretending to be someone else (impersonating a real person) yes.


If she has created a fictional character, made up a name, etc, no. But, it really depends on what she is doing with it. Is she causing mischief, fraud, or committing illegal acts? If so it could be yes.


Pretending to be someone else online and talking to your real-life friends

(idea) by AntonZ Wed Sep 27 2000 at 21:08:22

Putting aside the discussion of ethical aspects of such actions for another time, this is a great way to find out more about yourself, lose your best friends, and make yourself subject to sudden attacks of conscience.

I first came into contact with this kind of activity while talking to someone whose name I promised not to disclose. This person pretended to be a completely different person on ICQ while talking to one of our mutual friends. This began an innocent joke, but the person was drawn into it, and abandoned their plans to reveal their true identity, instead opting for the tasty bits opinions they would not otherwise have ever heard of (such as, for example, that the other person had a crush on the impersonator in real life). Highly embarrassing, and inconvenient, since they had to let every one of their friends on the plan, so they would not accidentally disclose the innocent fact of the impostor having an ICQ adress to the victim.

In another instance, one of my friends, Morte here on everything, pretended to be someone else to necromancer, resulting in a long string of words which summed up, basically, to "All my friends are assholes". Now Morte intends to 6Hsdf4DCENSORED BY MORTE. But I'm getting off track here.

If you intend to perform this feat of deception, here are some useful hints:
0. Do not do this.
1. Do not-Not-NOT do this if you're unsure of your qualifications as an actor. You will be discovered, and the consequences are usually negative.
2. Above all else, be careful! Do not mention the names of your mutual friends, keep to the writing style you picked for your alter ego, make sure your legend is consistent.
3. Do not be too insistent asking for gossip about your real self.
4. To quell their suspicions, try to appear online at the same time as your alter ego, using multi icq hack, or two computers, the latter method having the advantage of a possibility to have different IP addresses for your egos (for the benefit of the more suspicious of your friends)



Wife pretending to be someone else online

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have recently found out that my wife has alternate facebook and myspace profiles pretending to be a single mom living in a different state. She is using photos from one of her friends and her kid as her own on these profiles.

I became suspicious after I saw her filling out an About Me survey on facebook and in the "your favorite person in your life" field, she put down someone named Brendan. I searched on facebook and myspace using her other email address (she has 2 that she uses), and found the profiles. She uses the same passwords for everything, so I eventualy got in to them. I should note that she talks about this fake person to me every now and then about how they are good friends, etc. One day she claimed this fake friend was in the area, and my wife went to go visit "her". I don't believe she cheated on me though. I think she is just trying to make her fake friend more believable to me.

Once I got into the fake profiles, I saw a couple of people my wife would do some sexual flirting with. One in particular named Brendan. I don't think my wife has physically met any of these people, as I feel she doesn't want to blow her cover with these people seeing as her photos online are not her.

I checked her messenger friend lists, and found Brendan on her yahoo one. Her shared picture on her yahoo messenger is of my wife's friend's little girl.

I would like to hear opinions on how to handle this one. My wife has gone to great lengths to try and keep this a secret from me. My wife spends upwards of 10 hours a day online at times.


07-27-2008, 02:03 AM #2 (permalink)
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At the very least your wife is having an emotional affair. This creates two problems for your relationship.

1) It takes away time and energy from your relationship with her. All the online flirting can be done with you to better rewards.

2) It doesn't take to much to have a little thing go wrong. Maybe she is flirting now, maybe she'll meet the person but what happens if she goes a bit to far, because she put herself in the position to cheat?

I think you need to open communications with your wife and if you can't do it yourself than you need couples counciling. This can only get worse.

draconis
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07-27-2008, 04:15 AM #3 (permalink)
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thank you for the advice draconis


07-28-2008, 04:54 AM #4 (permalink)
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When i first found my husbands online dating accounts i demanded he delete them and never go back. i thought by controlling this one action things would get better. ya, he never did go back to that site, or do that particular thing again, but I kept finding other things. as long as i kept trying to control the thing he was doing, i was completely missing the point of what was going on between us.

The thing that helped me the most was doing a lot of reading about boundaries. Its been two years now and one hell of a painful ride. And even though I dont know if he's getting better, I am.


07-28-2008, 08:39 AM #5 (permalink)
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This behavior is bizarre at best. It is possible she is looking for some additional spice in her life but 10 hours a day is way over the top. This is not healthy for the marriage and needs to be addressed. I would let her know you are aware of these profiles and what she is doing at ask her to explain. She needs to discontinue all contact with Brendan. Good luck
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07-29-2008, 09:32 AM #6 (permalink)
justean
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this is not a fantasy life she is having, she is having a second real life.
i think you need to have a face to face talk.
brendan is not fantasy, he is a real person.


07-29-2008, 03:59 PM #7 (permalink)
blackeyedsusan37
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Even if she is not having a physical sexual relationship, what she is doing is far worse. She is lying and having an emotional affair. The emotional affairs are worse in my opinion because you can go and have sex with anyone (ok some people can but not me) but to let someone into your life and chose them over your spouse and family, that is wrong on too many different levels to count.
The bottom line is whether or not you think this behavior will continue. Meeting once or talking to someone once is ok, an "accident" if you will (to some but not in my world) but to continue it over a period of time becomes a behavior pattern. Not to mention she took the time and effort to make up these other profiles and LIE to you about her "friend". It was a deliberate act of deception. SHE is chosing to do these things to you.
On the other hand, is there a possibility that a friend is actually using her as a front. If this is her story and it is true, she should be able to tell you who the friend is and you can verify it.
DO NOT LET YOURSELF BE PLAYED. Good luck (I was a master manipulater and lyer so I know what can be done).

[ilikeplanets]

Best article to read after stealing a bottle of wine EVER!!!! Plus signs for you, hot mama!

[wHATcOLOR]

i'm the one we call hot mama around here

[Luke de Spa]

To post or not to post...?

[ilikeplanets]

That's no question!!!

[cork_soaker]

don't steal

[cocksure]

methinks the lady doth protest too much

[Mo]

[Shallowed]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

Best article to read after stealing a bottle of wine EVER!!!! Plus signs for you, hot mama!

I hope it helped to answer your question.

[killtrocity]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...-Posse-006.jpg

Scary clown make-up, obscene lyrics, violent fans. But, hey, God is on their side. Photograph: Jim Newberry

Milwaukee. A bad and quite eerie part of town. This happens to be the very block where the serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer murdered and ate 17 people in the 1980s. Now, from all around, thousands of young men and women, wearing scary clown face paint, are descending upon a disused indoor swimming pool that has been transformed into a music venue. They are juggalos, fans of Violent J and Shaggy 2 Dope, the rap duo known as Insane Clown Posse.

At first glance, it might not be obvious why I'm so excited about meeting them. You might dismiss them as just unbelievably misogynist and aggressive, and it is true that their lyrics are indeed incredibly offensive. Take, for instance, at random:

I'm hating sluts

Shoot them in the face, step back and itch my nuts

Unless I'm in the sack

Cos I fuck so hard it'll break their back.

ICP have been going for 20 years, always wearing clown make-up, which looks slightly lumpy because it's painted over their goatees. They've been banned from performing in various cities where juggalos have been implicated in murders and gang violence. ICP have a fearsome reputation, fostered by news reports showing teenagers in juggalo T-shirts arrested for stabbing strangers and lyrics like "Barrels in your mouth/bullets to your head/The back of your neck's all over the shed/Boomshacka boom chop chop bang."

All of which makes Violent J's recent announcement really quite astonishing: Insane Clown Posse have this entire time secretly been evangelical Christians. They've only been pretending to be brutal and sadistic to trick their fans into believing in God. They released a song, Thy Unveiling, that spelt out the revelation beyond all doubt:

Fuck it, we got to tell.

All secrets will now be told

No more hidden messages

…Truth is we follow GOD!!!

We've always been behind him

The carnival is GOD

And may all juggalos find him

We're not sorry if we tricked you.

The news shook the juggalo community to its core. While some fans claimed they'd actually had an inkling, having deciphered some of the hidden messages in several songs, others said they felt deeply betrayed and outraged: they'd been innocently enjoying all those songs about chopping people up and shooting women, and it was Christian rock?

Violent J explained himself unapologetically to a New Jersey newspaper: "You have to speak their language. You have to interest them, gain their trust, talk to them and show you're one of them. You're a person from the street and you speak of your experiences. Then at the end you can tell them: God has helped me."

Of course, one might argue that 20 years was, under the circumstances, an incredibly long time for them to have pretended to be unholy, and that, from a Christian perspective, the harm they did while feigning unholiness may even have outweighed the greater good.

I've come to Milwaukee because ICP have just released their most audacious Christian song to date: Miracles. In it, they list God's wonders that delight them each day:

Hot lava, snow, rain and fog,

Long neck giraffes, and pet cats and dogs

Fuckin' rainbows after it rains

There's enough miracles here to

blow your brains.

The song climaxes with them railing against the very concept of science:

Fuckin' magnets, how do they work?

And I don't wanna talk to a scientist

Y'all motherfuckers lying and

getting me pissed.

10pm. Upstairs, thousands of juggalos are getting drunk in readiness for the show. The atmosphere is riotous and exciting. ICP have a gimmick of throwing gallons of cheap fizzy soda into the crowd, and many juggalos are crushed into the barrier in the expectation of getting soaked and sticky. Backstage, ICP arrive to meet me. They're wearing their full clown make-up – they refuse to meet journalists without it – and are immediately delightful. They smoke, but considerately blow the smoke away from my face. "Oh, I'm sorry, let me put that out. That's some bullshit on my part," says Shaggy 2 Dope when he sees me flinch slightly away from it.

But they also seem melancholy and preoccupied with the negative critical response to Miracles. Saturday Night Live just parodied it ("Fuckin' blankets, how do they work?") and the internet is filled with amused and sometimes outraged science bloggers dissecting the lyrics. Violent J and Shaggy have been watching them, they tell me, feeling increasingly saddened and irate.

"A college professor took two days out of her fucking life to specifically attack us," says Violent J. "Oh yeah, she had it all figured out."

One of the ICP road crew locates the video on his iPhone, and it is indeed withering: "The [Miracles] video is not only dumb, but enthusiastically dumb, endorsing a ferocious breed of ignorance that can only be described as militant. The entire song is practically a tribute to not knowing things."

"Fuck you, man," says Violent J. "Shut the fuck up."

"Did you anticipate this kind of reaction?" I ask them.

"No," sighs Violent J. "I figured most people would say, 'Wow, I didn't know Insane Clown Posse could be deep like that.' But instead it's, 'ICP said a giraffe is a miracle. Ha ha ha! What a bunch of idiots.'" He pauses, then adds defiantly, "A giraffe is a fucking miracle. It has a dinosaur-like neck. It's yellow. Yeah, technically an elephant is not a miracle. Technically. They've been here for hundreds of years…"

"Thousands," murmurs Shaggy.

"Have you ever stood next to an elephant, my friend?" asks Violent J. "A fucking elephant is a miracle. If people can't see a fucking miracle in a fucking elephant, then life must suck for them, because an elephant is a fucking miracle. So is a giraffe."

We watch the video for another few seconds: "It becomes apparent that Shaggy and J consider any understanding of the actual workings of these 'miracles' to be corrosive. To them, knowledge is seen as a threat… For ICP a true understanding of 'fucking rainbows' would reduce them to, as Keats put it, 'the dull catalogue of common things'."

Violent J shakes his head sorrowfully. "Who looks at the stars at night and says, 'Oh, those are gaseous forms of plutonium'?" he says. "No! You look at the stars and you think, 'Those are beautiful.'"

Suddenly he glances at me. The woman in the video is bespectacled and nerdy. I am bespectacled and nerdy. Might I have a similar motive?

"I don't know how magnets work," I say, to put him at his ease.

"Nobody does, man!" he replies, relieved. "Magnetic force, man. What else is similar to that on this Earth? Nothing! Magnetic force is fascinating to us. It's right there, in your fucking face. You can feel them pulling. You can't see it. You can't smell it. You can't touch it. But there's a fucking force there. That's cool!"

Shaggy says the idea for the lyrics came when one of the ICP road crew brought some magnets into the recording studio one day and they spent ages playing with them in wonderment.

"Gravity's cool," Violent J says, "but not as cool as magnets."

"I did think," I admit, "that fog constitutes quite a low threshold for miracles."

"Fog?" Violent J says, surprised.

"Well," I clarify, "I've lived around fog my whole life, so maybe I'm blasé."

"Fog, to me, is awesome," he replies. "Do you know why? Because I look at my five-year-old son and I'm explaining to him what fog is and he thinks it's incredible."

"Ah!" I gesticulate. "If you're explaining to your five-year-old son what fog is, then why do you not want to meet scientists? Because they're just like you, explaining things to people…"

"Well," Violent J says, "science is… we don't really… that's like…" He pauses. Then he waves his hands as if to say, "OK, an analogy": "If you're trying to fuck a girl, but her mom's home, fuck her mom! You understand? You want to fuck the girl, but her mom's home? Fuck the mom. See?"

I look blankly at him. "You mean…"

"Now, you don't really feel that way," Violent J says. "You don't really hate her mom. But for this moment when you're trying to fuck this girl, fuck her! And that's what we mean when we say fuck scientists. Sometimes they kill all the cool mysteries away. When I was a kid, they couldn't tell you how pyramids were made…"

"Like Stonehenge and Easter Island," says Shaggy. "Nobody knows how that shit got there."

"But since then, scientists go, 'I've got an explanation for that.' It's like, fuck you! I like to believe it was something out of this world."

Violent J's real name is Joseph Bruce, Shaggy's is Joseph Utsler. They're in their late 30s. Their career, while at times truly glittering, is littered with inadvertent mistakes. Born and raised in Christian homes in Detroit, they've known each other since high school. "We were dirt poor," Shaggy says. "You can't get no poorer. Fighting, food stamps, I was a fucking thief for a living, hustling, getting money, we were balls deep in that shit."

Their first band, Inner City Posse, was without clown make-up. They were gangsta rappers, and consequently found themselves behaving in a gangster-like manner. In 1989, Violent J was jailed for 90 days for death threats, robbery and violating probation. When he got out, he and Shaggy made some life-defining decisions. How could they keep their rap career going but move away from the destructive gang lifestyle? How could they change the band's name but keep the initials ICP? People liked the initials ICP.

And then it came to them in a flash: Insane Clown Posse! Killer clown rap! It was the perfect outlet for their emotions. Write about the pain and the anger through the prism of horror-movie imagery. A whole new genre.

"We had to work our ass off from the ground up," Violent J says. "We don't get radio play. We don't get video play. We get nothing. This is our video play…" He indicates the dressing room. "Being on the road. We didn't have no Jay-Z telling everyone, 'Hey, look at these guys, we're friends with them, listen to them.' To this day, we don't get that."

This aspect of things might have turned out rather differently had Violent J not made their first big error. It was 1997. Insane Clown Posse were enjoying an early flush of success – their albums Riddle Box and The Great Milenko had sold a million copies. One night they were in a club when a young man handed them a flyer inviting them to a party. The flyer read: "Featuring appearances by Esham, Kid Rock, and ICP (maybe)."

"Why are you saying we're going to be playing at your party when you haven't asked us?" Violent J yelled at the boy.

"It says 'maybe'," he said. "Maybe you will be there. I don't know. That's why I'm asking you right now. Are you guys coming to my party or what?"

"Fuck no," Violent J replied. "We might have, if you'd asked us first, before putting us on the fucking flyer."

That boy grew up to be Eminem and, incensed, he's been publicly deriding ICP ever since in lyrics such as, "ICP are overrated and hated because of their false identities".

An observation that turned out to be prophetic. "From the very beginning of our music, God is in there," Violent J says, "in hidden messages."

"Can you give me some examples?" I ask.

There's a small silence. He looks torn between revealing them or maintaining the mystery. He shoots Shaggy a glance.

"The Riddle Box," he finally says.

Hey, what's up, motherfucker

This is Shaggs 2 Dope

Congratulating you on opening

the Riddlebox

It looks like you received your prize

The cost, what it cost, was your ASS,

bitchboy!

Hahahahah!

(The Riddle Box, 1995)

"If you died today, God forbid, if you were hit by a car and you had to turn the crank to your own riddle box, what would pop out?" Violent J peers at me. "Would it be God, or would it be the devil? Only you truly know the answer to your own riddle box. We're asking the listener, what is in your own riddle box if you were to die today?"

"Cos you can't lie to yourself, man," says Shaggy.

"Only you know the answer to that riddle," Violent J says. "And then there's The Ringmaster. In The Ringmaster, we say when you die you have to face your own beast. Somebody who has lived a life of religion, they face a very small and weak beast when they die. But somebody who's an evil bastard will have to face a monster. The question is, how big is your ringmaster? If, God forbid, you were hit by a car. Ask yourself, Jon." Violent J looks me in the eye. "How big is your ringmaster?"

"How come it took you so long to make the announcement?" I ask.

"You had to gain everybody's attention," says Violent J. "You had to gain the entire world's trust and attention."

"So all those unpleasant characters in the songs," I ask, "like the narrator in I Stuck Her With My Wang, they're examples of people you shouldn't be?"

"Huh?" Violent J says.

"Well, it's very unpleasant," I say. "'I stuck her with my wang. She hit me in the balls. I grabbed her by her neck. And I bounced her off the walls. She said it was an accident and then apologised. But I still took my elbow and blackened both her eyes.' That's clearly a song about domestic violence. So your Christian message is... don't be like that man?"

"Huh?" Violent J repeats, mystified.

There's a silence.

"I Stuck Her With My Wang is funny," Violent J says. "Jokes. Jokes, man. Jokes. Jokes. Jokes. It's just a ridiculous scenario. Silly stories, man. Silly stories. What's she doing kicking him in the balls? We find it funny. But we're saying, while we're close, while we're hanging, hey, man, do you ever ask yourself what's in your riddle box? If you had to turn the crank today?"

"But still, given that you were secretly Christian, are there any lyrics you now regret?"

There's a silence. "Yeah," Violent J says quietly.

"Which ones?"

"Dumb, stupid, idiotic lyrics that I said without knowing any better. Back in the day."

"Like what?"

"I really don't want to say. There's one lyric…" He trails off, suddenly looking really sad beneath the clown make-up. "Just dumb lyrics. I said one lyric one time that I hate. I may have been feeling really down that day. I said something, I live with that every day. I don't want to point it out."

I later do a search and find it difficult to pinpoint exactly which lyric he may be referring to. It just might, I suppose, be, "I took aim at a stray dog, and I blew out its brains, it was fresh as hell, no feelings for others, you gotta be cold."'

Violent J says releasing Thy Unveiling, coming out as a Christian, was the most exciting moment of his life. "It felt so good, brother. I was fucking in heaven. Let me tell you something: I would go running at night, and my feet wouldn't even touch the ground. I had my headphones on, I'd be listening to Thy Unveiling, and I'd be in such a zone that my feet wouldn't even be touching the ground. I'd be literally levitating."

He was worried, of course, about the reaction from the juggalos and, sure enough, "The emotional impact shook the whole juggalo foundation, for good and for ill."

"What did the juggalos who were opposed to it say?" I ask.

"They said, 'Fuck that'," says Shaggy.

"But the juggalos and juggalettes who were for it were so touched," Violent J says. "They said they loved us."

And then the reviews came in.

Blender magazine, in its list of the 50 worst artists in music history, call ICP the very worst of all: "Insane Clown Posse sound even stupider than they look. Two trailer-trash types who wear face paint, pretend to be a street gang and drench cult devotees in cheap soda called Faygo, Violent J and Shaggy 2 Dope are more notorious for their beef with Eminem than their ham-fisted rap-rock music." And their nadir, Blender said, the worst musical moment from the worst band ever, is The Wraith: Shangri-La, the album that climaxes with Thy Unveiling.

I suddenly wonder, halfway through our interview, if I am looking at two men in clown make-up who are suffering from depression. I cautiously ask them this and Violent J immediately replies. "I'm medicated," he says. "I have a lot of medicine that I take. For depression. Panic attacks are really a serious part of my life." He points at Shaggy. "He's gone through some things as well."

"You do a show in front of how many hundreds or thousands of people." Shaggy nods. "You're giving your full being, your soul, to every person in that crowd, every pore in your body is sweating, you're fighting consciousness, just to get it out of you, and after the show all your fans are partying, 'Yeah! Rock and roll!' And you're just here." He glances around the dressing room. "You're just fucking sitting here."

Violent J turns to him and says, softly, "If we moved furniture for a living we'd have a bad back or bad knees. We think for a living. We try to create. We try to constantly think of cool ideas. And every once in a while there's a breakdown in the engine… I guess that's the price you pay."

Shaggy nods quietly. "I get anxiety and shit a lot," he says. "And reading that stuff people write about us… It hurts."

"Least talented band in the world," Violent J says. "No talent. When I hear that I think, 'Damn. Are we that different from people?'"

He looks as if he means it – as if he sometimes feels hopelessly stuck being him.

It's just a terrible twist of fate for Insane Clown Posse that theirs is a form of creative expression that millions of people find ridiculous. But then suddenly, palpably, Violent J pulls himself out of his introspection. They're about to go on stage and he doesn't want to be maudlin. He wants to be on the offensive. He shoots me a defiant look and says, "You know Miracles? Let me tell you, if Alanis Morissette had done that fucking song everyone would have called it fucking genius."

[Eulogy]

My favorite part:

"So all those unpleasant characters in the songs," I ask, "like the narrator in I Stuck Her With My Wang, they're examples of people you shouldn't be?"

"Huh?" Violent J says.

"Well, it's very unpleasant," I say. "'I stuck her with my wang. She hit me in the balls. I grabbed her by her neck. And I bounced her off the walls. She said it was an accident and then apologised. But I still took my elbow and blackened both her eyes.' That's clearly a song about domestic violence. So your Christian message is... don't be like that man?"

"Huh?" Violent J repeats, mystified.

There's a silence.

"I Stuck Her With My Wang is funny," Violent J says. "Jokes. Jokes, man. Jokes. Jokes. Jokes. It's just a ridiculous scenario. Silly stories, man. Silly stories. What's she doing kicking him in the balls? We find it funny. But we're saying, while we're close, while we're hanging, hey, man, do you ever ask yourself what's in your riddle box? If you had to turn the crank today?"

[Rider]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

My favorite part:

He is basically and correctly saying "Why the fuck are you guys taking us seriously".

[Trotskilicious]

Mainly because they're not funny.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Rider

He is basically and correctly saying "Why the fuck are you guys taking us seriously".

I don't think that's an accurate reading of the situation

[Rider]

Originally Posted by ilikeplanets

Oh what a lovely bottle of wine on the table...expensive and old. But it is supposed to be donated to some cause or other....do I take it?

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._4407399_n.jpg

[duovamp]

Do not take what you have not earned.

[slunken]

That's a pretty gay tattoo.

[killtrocity]

How big is your ringmaster?

Who looks at the stars at night and says, 'Oh, those are gaseous forms of plutonium'?

I would go running at night, and my feet wouldn't even touch the ground.

If you died today, God forbid, if you were hit by a car and you had to turn the crank to your own riddle box, what would pop out?