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Old 12-22-2012, 08:46 PM   #61
reprise85
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basically kids treated like shit are more likely to feel like shit and treat others like shit and grow up to continue these behaviors, how's that for a summary

even if they dont remember the first time they got treated like shit. because they will learn that the world treats you like shit (because in the formative years your caregivers ARE your whole world), and respond to everyone else as if they will also treat them badly. it's a survival strategy.

 
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:12 PM   #62
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i dunno. i'm not convinced. physical damage - sure, that would be pretty bad. but how exactly do you arrive at attachment issues without memory? i really am a little curious because this seems to be at the base of certain psychotherapeutical premises and i wonder what our board shrink would have to say about it
I agree a baby (I don't mean a toddler, but a 1 year old baby) is very unlikely to experience rape like older kids or adults. You need a sense of boundaries to feel violated, and as far as I know babies don't have a strong one. Their parents need to do everything for them, from feeding to carrying them around to changing diapers. I imagine the psychological consequences of rape would be the same as any act of extreme violence against the baby - except maybe the baby would associate that pain with specific body parts and people. You don't need to remember what caused you to be afraid of, say, spiders (if there is a specific cause) for you to flinch when you see one. I assume the same is true for other things. I don't remember learning how to walk, but I can walk. I don't remember learning how to speak, but I am indeed capable of producing utterances.

Obviously I'm not claiming abusing 1 year olds is OK if they don't feel pain - by all means, lock up everyone who does that. I'm just saying that (luckily for the victimized babies) they probably wouldn't be more traumatized than a dog or a cat would.

 
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:37 PM   #63
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have you ever seen a traumatized cat or dog

i mean by all means they are not people but if they could talk and had higher functioning brains you could certainly tell they are emotionally scarred...?

 
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:37 PM   #64
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uh...

 
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:39 PM   #65
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I imagine the psychological consequences of rape would be the same as any act of extreme violence against the baby - except maybe the baby would associate that pain with specific body parts and people. .
I pretty much agree with you and but the idea that sexual abuse is somehow worse than any other kind is kinda a myth imo (having been a victim of sexual, physical, emotional, etc by various people)

 
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:56 PM   #66
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have you ever seen a traumatized cat or dog

i mean by all means they are not people but if they could talk and had higher functioning brains you could certainly tell they are emotionally scarred...?
That's exactly my point. If a human touches a puppy inappropriately, the puppy won't even know what bodily autonomy is, much less that it's being violated. But if you physically hurt the puppy, it can grow scarily paranoid and violent.

Humans develop a much more sophisticated sense of self, and that's one of the reasons why (non-physically damaging) sexual abuse even exists. We don't know when exactly we develop it, but still, it's really not unreasonable to just tell adults to keep their hands off kids.

 
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:06 PM   #67
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I pretty much agree with you and but the idea that sexual abuse is somehow worse than any other kind is kinda a myth imo (having been a victim of sexual, physical, emotional, etc by various people)
I don't think it's always worse. It probably depends on the individual and the severity of the abuse. Sexual abuse is tricky because other than it being abuse, a lot of people treat you like you're damaged goods, and the victim is often taught to blame themselves. What I mean is that as a society we send mixed signals that are themselves very damaging. On the one hand, if you are sexually abused, you are supposed to be a broken person, scarred for life. On the other hand, people obviously don't take it seriously enough, or else they wouldn't facilitate it and support practices that allow it.

In short, I agree with you, but I feel like I have to explain why or else I'm going to accused of saying it's not a big deal that rape happens.

 
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:09 PM   #68
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Believe me I understand victim blaming both from myself and others. Maybe I see it a little differently because all of mine were intermingled. But with interpersonal sexual abuse/rape (as in, not a stranger/acquaintance), it is the actual betrayal part of it that - to me - is worse than the actual acts or the stigma of the acts.

 
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:12 PM   #69
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No, I know, sorry if I sounded condescending. I knew we were more or less on the same page, so I wasn't explaining it for your benefit. I was just trying to make sure I wouldn't be misunderstood by anyone else.

 
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:27 PM   #70
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Oh, did you add in that last sentence a little after the other stuff? Sorry, I missed it. It's all good.

 
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:03 AM   #71
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I assume the same is true for other things. I don't remember learning how to walk, but I can walk. I don't remember learning how to speak, but I am indeed capable of producing utterances.
this is actually a bad example because learning how to walk and, say, learning how to use a computer are two pretty different things. as humans we are basically hard-wired to learn how to walk, that's one of the key characteristics of human physiology. and in fact, the same thing can be said about language. see chomsky's language-as-organ theory.

basically i don't believe we are tabulae rasae when we are born but i can't imagine babies have a sense of what's happening to them when they're raped at age one, and if it doesn't hurt (which it probably does) they won't even know that it's wrong

that being said, of cause it is wrong and pretty fucking disturbing too

 
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:25 AM   #72
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this is actually a bad example because learning how to walk and, say, learning how to use a computer are two pretty different things. as humans we are basically hard-wired to learn how to walk, that's one of the key characteristics of human physiology. and in fact, the same thing can be said about language. see chomsky's language-as-organ theory.

basically i don't believe we are tabulae rasae when we are born but i can't imagine babies have a sense of what's happening to them when they're raped at age one, and if it doesn't hurt (which it probably does) they won't even know that it's wrong

that being said, of cause it is wrong and pretty fucking disturbing too
The language-as-organ theory isn't actually very well supported empirically (so far at least). I think Chomsky's contribution to psychology is more important due to his mentalist approach (vs behaviorism) rather than his specific language theories. Either way, it doesn't much matter what causes us to learn to walk or talk - nature or nurture. It's always a combination of the two. Even if we have a language organ, we still need verbal stimuli, and we still have no memories of how that happened.

If you want another example, I have one single memory of me trying to learn how to ride a bike, but that's all I remember. I can't remember the moment when I learned. I can't remember practicing at all.

Likewise, when a person has certain types of amnesia, they usually know things even when they have no memories. They may not recognize their doctor, but they know what a doctor is. They may not remember they have a car, but they can still drive. I suppose you could still call those "memories", but they aren't what we are usually referring to when we say that we don't keep any memories from when we are babies.

Last edited by Rairun : 12-23-2012 at 10:35 AM.

 
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:38 AM   #73
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but that's the kind of memory that i had in mind. something that is worked into your development. not sure if babies can do that with such abstract concepts as rape.

the point i tried to make about walking and language is that, under normal conditions (i.e. unless you have some kind of disability or are mowgli), everyone is able and WILL learn how to walk and talk. ability doesn't enter into it. the fact that you need external input isn't that important since, as you said, nurture is a part of "learning" anything. i think riding a bike is a different thing but in the end the boundaries are never quite clear. i just think, as you pointed out earlier, for rape to be understood as something other than just physical pain you need a concept of self, of personal rights, of the responsibility of people around you etc.

 
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:22 AM   #74
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according to my gf there has been research to this very topic. there is psychological damage for people that were raped at such an early age. if their parents never told them, at a certain age they often get unstable without knowing how.

 
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:11 PM   #75
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really though rairun, dont you think its likely that troskicliosu has raped a baby

 
Old 12-23-2012, 12:12 PM   #76
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if this lost profphets guy wanted to keep things legal he could have gone out with a dude with a micropenis like jonathan monte of monte IT

 
Old 12-23-2012, 01:21 PM   #77
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that's all well and good but i don't need some kind of hyperbole about how i'm a neo nazi
WAH WAH WAH!

 
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:48 PM   #78
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according to my gf there has been research to this very topic. there is psychological damage for people that were raped at such an early age. if their parents never told them, at a certain age they often get unstable without knowing how.
in my experience, women often start showing symptoms of PTSD "out of the blue" when they have kids, or when their kids become the age they were when they were or started getting abused *disclaimer - anecdotal

 
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:11 PM   #79
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Often? How many women do you know who were sexually abused as 1 year old babies?

 
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:58 PM   #80
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i've known a few because of being hospitalized in a PTSD program

and many more at any time in their childhood, i'm talking people who were mostly serially abused

most of them, in my experience, have dissociative symptoms chronically but have delayed signs of PTSD until their 30s or 40s

i dont claim to know exactly why but that's what i observed. i first was there at 22 years old and was the youngest, but i had abuse outside the home as a fledgling adult that i never really repressed at all, suppressed yes, but most of these woman have marriages, children, careers before it all falls apart. i never got to that point for whatever reason

and i dont know for sure but i was abused starting at an early age, one i don't know but certainly by three or four

 
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:26 PM   #81
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Hmm, if he was incarcerated in an American prison, he'd at least get what he deserved whle in prison if you know what I mean.

 
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:45 PM   #82
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No, please explain it to us. Pictures would also be helpful

 
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:51 PM   #83
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i think expressing excitement over another person being prison raped should be grounds for a thorough psychological examination

heh but really great joke jesse miller i see what you're saying

 
Old 12-24-2012, 02:52 PM   #84
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i think it's understandable to think but not really want

 
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Old 12-24-2012, 04:30 PM   #85
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i think expressing excitement over another person being prison raped should be grounds for a thorough psychological examination

heh but really great joke jesse miller i see what you're saying
I'm neither joking nor excited.

But these guys ony get like 8 years in the joint, and thats fucked up. But then those eight years can be a living hell depending on the movement policies of the prison they are at, which makes it a little better.

 
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:09 PM   #86
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you are a terrible human being.

 
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:50 PM   #87
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I am a terrible human being for believing that child molestors deserve to be beaten and extorted by other inmates while they are serving an insignificant sentance for permanently scarring a child?

 
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:55 PM   #88
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awful thread wouldnt read again

 
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:43 PM   #89
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I am a terrible human being for believing that child molestors deserve to be beaten and extorted by other inmates while they are serving an insignificant sentance for permanently scarring a child?
Yes. Don't forget you wanted them raped as well.

 
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:10 PM   #90
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Wow if you think I'm terribe for that, then I don't want to know what you think about child molestors! :0

 
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