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09-12-2008, 03:20 PM | #1 | |
Demi-God
Posts: 404
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Obama's healthcare plan. Is it scary?
I was researching McCain and Obama's positions on healthcare today after realizing I was unclear on some of the finer points of both candidates plans. I took the following from Barack Obama's official website.
http://origin.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/ Quote:
This really struck me because I've heard many times from Obama supporters that If I didn't like the healthcare plan it was no big deal since I could still purchase my own insurance. (I'd have to pay more taxes to fund the government plan and buy my own but...) Still, I was under the impression that the private sector would still have a role in providing healthcare to those who'd rather but this "National Health Insurance Exchange" would basically remove the last shred of choice Americans would have in healthcare. Surely at least a few of the Libertarians around here also take issue with this. (there are no conservatives) Am I the only one who's really scared about this level of government control? |
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09-12-2008, 03:31 PM | #2 |
Apocalyptic Poster
Posts: 2,349
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No.
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09-12-2008, 03:42 PM | #3 | |
Demi-God
Posts: 404
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Quote:
Last edited by candycane : 09-12-2008 at 03:49 PM. |
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09-12-2008, 04:02 PM | #4 |
Apocalyptic Poster
Posts: 2,349
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I speak from empirical experience, having lived in countries with nationalized healthcare. You have nothing to be scared of (except the taxes).
Oh wait, the waiting times suck as well. You can always go for a private company in case you are unsatisfied, though. here's an interesting read |
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09-12-2008, 04:10 PM | #5 |
*sigh*
Posts: 8,845
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have these other countries been as big as the United States of America?
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09-12-2008, 04:27 PM | #6 |
The Man of Tomorrow
Posts: 26,965
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Yes, yes they have.
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09-12-2008, 04:28 PM | #7 |
Apocalyptic Poster
Posts: 2,349
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Yes, and they are definitely doing better economically than the US. I also believe their literacy rates are higher if not equal to those of the US, in case you care, Monte.
America, fuck yeah! |
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09-12-2008, 04:30 PM | #8 |
huh
Posts: 62,456
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09-12-2008, 04:32 PM | #9 | |
Demi-God
Posts: 404
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Quote:
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09-12-2008, 04:41 PM | #10 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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Nothing in that paragraph says that the govt is "nationalizing" (i.e., taking over) private health insurers.
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09-12-2008, 05:02 PM | #11 | |
*****
Posts: 15,731
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Quote:
I haven't really dug deep on how it works for other countries. I realize alot of people feel that some health care is better than none, when it comes to NHC but I would disagree. I've lived without insurance for many years, and know how it is to go to a free clinic. It's not the best of places to go, but at least you're not waiting for a procedure and you can pay on a sliding scale fee. Now that I have had insurance the past few years (blue cross), I've met challenges with it too. They wanted to cut off treatments I was getting a year ago, all because the doctor felt I was very improved, but continuing treatments is what keeps me well. Blue Cross stopped paying for it, so now I pay out of pocket and pay the insurance premium. Either way we go, NHC or private insurance, it's not working the way it should. |
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09-12-2008, 05:04 PM | #12 | |
Demi-God
Posts: 404
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Quote:
I'm left scratching my head wondering: how in the world can a private insurance company compete with the federal government when the government stacks the deck? How can a private insurer give me a good rate when I'll be having to pay for 1 million cancer patients treatment even though I'm healthy and will already be paying for 10 million cancer patients when my taxes go through the roof? It seems obvious to me that Socialized medicine proponents know they wouldn't be able to compete with private industry so just like in Canada they make it as difficult as possible for insurance companies to do business. I'm scared! Can't you tell? How many questions did I just ask? |
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09-12-2008, 05:15 PM | #13 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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Fedex, DHL, UPS are all private companies competing with the federal government.
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09-12-2008, 05:22 PM | #14 |
Demi-God
Posts: 404
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I don't think Fedex and UPS have nearly as many regulations as the insurers will. Fedex, DHL and UPS also don't have the Feds seting prices, the market sets the prices.
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09-12-2008, 05:23 PM | #15 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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The healthcare system problem is massive and convoluted. I can't easily explain in all the problems with it and at the same time clear up all the numerous misconceptions you have on other countries national healthcare systems.
I highly suggest you find a hour of your time to watch this documentary from pbs. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...roundtheworld/ "Watch full program online" It's highly illuminating and shows the pros and cons of five national healthcare systems around the world. and when you finally get back to America, you need to realize this: America already spends more money per capita and highest % of its GDP on healthcare than all other industrialized countries in the world. And here's the punchline: all those other countries cover 100% of their citizens and they have better results (i.e., longer life spans, healthier, lower infant mortality rate). We spend more, but get less from our healthcare. Something is seriously wrong with the status quo. Last edited by Debaser : 09-12-2008 at 05:45 PM. |
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09-12-2008, 05:37 PM | #16 | |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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Quote:
The Fed does set prices. It sets the price of USPS courier rates. And due to lobbying from fedex and UPS, the Fed prohibits the USPS from charging bulk rates--preventing the USPS from competing fairly against fedex and UPS for courier deliveries. Even the govt uses Fedex instead of the USPS for courier service. So there's government regulations alright, but its against the govt for the specific benefit of private companies. pretty sure I cribbed all that from Everything for Sale: The Virtues and Limits of Markets by Kuttner |
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09-12-2008, 05:49 PM | #17 |
Master of Karate and Friendship
Location: in your butt
Posts: 72,975
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09-12-2008, 05:50 PM | #18 | |
Master of Karate and Friendship
Location: in your butt
Posts: 72,975
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Quote:
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09-12-2008, 05:52 PM | #19 | |
Demi-God
Posts: 404
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Quote:
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09-12-2008, 05:54 PM | #20 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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Also, since healthcare insurance is a for-profit business, the overhead is extremely high compared to all those other nations.
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09-12-2008, 05:56 PM | #21 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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pretty sure it's the way you like it more often than not these days. Why use the army to cook food when you can shove taxpayer money to Taco Bell stands at MOB's in Iraq? Why have the Army Corp of Engineers, um...engineer shit in Iraq, when you can shove taxpayer money into Haliburton and KBR, who then shamelessly overcharge the government? Why use the our soldiers to protect our ambassadors, when we can overpay Blackwater?
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09-12-2008, 06:00 PM | #22 | |
Demi-God
Posts: 404
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Quote:
I brought this up because I was surprised to learn that Obama's plan was even worse than I thought. I wish I'd have looked at it before. |
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09-12-2008, 06:06 PM | #23 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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If anything, Obama's plan doesn't go nowhere near far enough.
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09-12-2008, 06:06 PM | #24 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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go watch that documentary.
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09-12-2008, 06:09 PM | #25 | |
Demi-God
Posts: 404
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Quote:
I'm more likely to pin the blame on the uninsured not paying for care and going to the emergency room when they have a cold. |
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09-12-2008, 06:10 PM | #26 |
Demi-God
Posts: 404
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I will probably watch it later.
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09-12-2008, 06:16 PM | #27 |
Master of Karate and Friendship
Location: in your butt
Posts: 72,975
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after that, watch Sicko. I'm sure it's just as non-partisan.
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09-12-2008, 06:20 PM | #28 | |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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Quote:
As for jabbing at for-profit companies, I don't think its thievery. But think about this: health insurance companies make more money in profit the less they payout, right? So it's in their interest and profit margin to not cover you as much as you want. The worse you get treated, the more corners they cut, the more profit they make. It's perverted. The evidence is out there. And just look at other countries healthcare systems for comparison. |
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09-12-2008, 06:21 PM | #29 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
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09-12-2008, 06:24 PM | #30 |
Immortal
Location: like liutenant dan i'm rollin'
Posts: 21,016
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remember debaser pbs is a liberal hate machine
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