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Old 04-26-2016, 12:03 AM   #61
run2pee
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The ball god helps you have a ball

j/k there should be a comma between ball and god

Thanks, yeah that last verse has some issues, it takes a turn I've never been happy with, although I like the weary ice cream man and bored-sick sun

 
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Old 04-26-2016, 12:11 AM   #62
redbreegull
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it's 'onomatopoeia' by the way

 
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Old 04-26-2016, 12:34 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
we don't think in words?

bitch u be trippin
ay, Fulltoke.


yes, indeed. I'm trippin, but nevertheless -- Words translate the meaning we see.




Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
we are shackled by our words, we are IN BONDAGE to language, fool

I agree, but...for instance:

When's the last dream you had where all you saw were words go by describing its meaning?

 
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Old 04-26-2016, 01:28 AM   #64
reprise85
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Well we obviously don't need words to think. Babies think and other animals think. However, language greatly shapes our thoughts - concepts are much easier to think of when they already have names. Without language it would be hard to have extremely complex concepts that rely on other concepts, or at least it'd be hard to explain them to other people, which might as well be the same thing in the end.

I don't see how the dream question has to do with how powerful words are or how enslaved we are to them?

 
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Old 04-26-2016, 11:23 AM   #65
redbreegull
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Correct my layman's understanding if it is incorrect, but don't languages actually build frameworks through which we think, i.e. language plays a more active role in our conceptualization of the universe than just providing names for objects?

So a rose by any other name intuitively makes sense but it's kind of a pre-scientific idea of language.

 
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Old 04-26-2016, 01:59 PM   #66
Disco King
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I'm no expert, but I believe Chomsky thinks that language is an adaptation that developed because of how it allows for more complex abstract thought, which I guess would translate to being able to think about and manipulate the environment better. It didn't develop as an adaptation for communication, in his view, but we started using it for that, so it's more of an exaptation. I think he thinks this because human language isn't just a more developed version of other communication mechanisms other animals have, it's a completely derived trait in humans.

Pinker disagrees with him about it not being an adaptation selected for due to its utility in communication, though. Pinker's view is that it developed because of the cooperative benefit language brings. Essentially, "you tell me where the berries are, I tell you where the fish is."

 
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Old 04-26-2016, 02:34 PM   #67
run2pee
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Originally Posted by Elphenor View Post
I am much more moved by the before mentioned Roger Waters than Freddie Mercury who doesn't really convince me of anything other than he has a lot of range
I've always had a soft spot for unconventional, "shitty" singers who are able to compensate with raw emotion and/or interesting lyrics. Ozzy, Bill Corgan, John Hiatt to name a few. Sometimes people play me stuff and go "oh but listen to his/her voice, what pipes!" but I can't feel it. Singers with "great voices" are about as interesting to me as guitarists who play obscure scales at lightning speed for the pure fuck of it.

 
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Old 04-26-2016, 09:20 PM   #68
reprise85
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Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
Correct my layman's understanding if it is incorrect, but don't languages actually build frameworks through which we think, i.e. language plays a more active role in our conceptualization of the universe than just providing names for objects?

So a rose by any other name intuitively makes sense but it's kind of a pre-scientific idea of language.
Yes this is correct. At its base it is just a programming code for ideas/thoughts, and it requires that we work within its confines, but when we do we are able to create higher level programming languages. Much like electrical stimulation -> transistors -> machine language -> low level programming languages -> mid level -> high level etc

I mean there are a lot of ways to look at it and this is just one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
I'm no expert, but I believe Chomsky thinks that language is an adaptation that developed because of how it allows for more complex abstract thought, which I guess would translate to being able to think about and manipulate the environment better. It didn't develop as an adaptation for communication, in his view, but we started using it for that, so it's more of an exaptation. I think he thinks this because human language isn't just a more developed version of other communication mechanisms other animals have, it's a completely derived trait in humans.

Pinker disagrees with him about it not being an adaptation selected for due to its utility in communication, though. Pinker's view is that it developed because of the cooperative benefit language brings. Essentially, "you tell me where the berries are, I tell you where the fish is."
Far be it from me to decide which of these is correct but whatever reason it came about, as a byproduct or emergent property of advanced brains or as a selected-for evolutionary trait itself, it certainly does allow cooperation that would be impossible or unlikely without it. the fact that we can explicitly tell people what we want helps social contracts go way more smoothly than they otherwise could, and helps us identify those who are purposefully breaking it vs those who are just incompetent. which is probably only important to us in a way because morality exists, which also suffers from the same 'is it a by-product or does it actually help our inclusive fitness' question, which boils down really to: does consciousness/self-consciousness/other-consciousness help our inclusive fitness somehow (even though it makes us have less babies and sacrifice ourselves for non-kin more often) or is it also just a byproduct of huge brains?

 
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Old 04-26-2016, 09:24 PM   #69
reprise85
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i'm actually having a test on this on friday. not the language part but the morality/consciousness/spirituality aspects of evolution and theory of mind

scientists are split on this stuff, for what it's worth.

 
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Old 04-27-2016, 04:50 AM   #70
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As far as I'm aware, Chomsky doesn't make any hard claims about the origins of the so-called "language faculty" - obviously it must have evolved somehow, but this isn't what he set out to study. He just assumes that it is there (which, given a loose enough definition, is true by default, but he ends up assigning it more properties than I'm comfortable with without evidence). Then he claims to model this faculty scientifically, but what he actually does is create generative models for grammar (i.e. a system that can correctly produce grammatical utterances while failing to produce ungrammatical ones). Chomsky's work is far away from being scientifically sound if we think of linguistics as a kind of psychology of language (as he does).

Anyway, this is just a personal anecdote, but it seems to me that most of my thinking isn't done in English or Portuguese. A lot of it is done through a kind of visual/spacial manipulation of symbols that stand for general ideas, and it's only when I have to detail those ideas that I switch to a natural language.

 
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:41 AM   #71
soniclovenoize
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Originally Posted by reprise85 View Post
Absolutely agree with all of this this, and also like your lyrics SLN. I wish I could write more like you do, it always feels like I'm somehow trying to say things with the least amount of words possible and I'm not sure why
Thanks as well!

Quality over quantity is fine. Saying the most out of the least is definitely an asset.

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Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
it's 'onomatopoeia' by the way
Please excuse the typo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Run To Me View Post
But this strikes me as an entire song about the therapy/agony of writing music, which is cool

Calliope is a great word too. I used it in a song about my last band ending/the mystery of free time
Thanks!

 
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:54 AM   #72
soniclovenoize
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Originally Posted by Run To Me View Post
I admire this attitude but I find it hard to adopt. Especially growing older the time I take away from friends/family to write music seems unjustifiably selfish if the result is going to be some navelgazingly dense word salad that entertains only me.
Well creating art in the first place is selfish, so why split hairs? If they truly are your friends and family, they wouldn't mind you are doing something for you. I also maintain that there are so many people in the world, that if you made art that entertains only yourself, there would statistically be people who would also be entertained by it, who share your tastes/views/etc. The trick is finding them of course.

But as I said before, if you are operating in full confidence without any notion of artistic corruption, then those people will eventually find you.

Quote:
Its not necessarily "pandering" to be cognizant of the fact you'll be asking someone to sit through it, right? I try to be aware of how I would react to what I'm writing, if I were to, say, hear some stranger at an open mic playing and singing it. Would I be hooked? Would I want to hear the next verse? Or would I be bored or--worse--embarrassed for them (me)?
That's an interesting point, I'll respond in two ways:
1) You shouldn't ask anyone to do anything. it simply exists, and it's up to them to experience it or not. In that mindset, you are completely free to create 100% without the worry of rejection (if that's the worry).
2) Personally, I make music I myself would want to hear or would find interesting. So yeah, the stranger--who is thus me--would be interested. Obviously, this produces a smaller yield, which could be a drawback if that's your goal.

 
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