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Old 04-14-2015, 05:00 PM   #211
MyOneAndOnly
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at least 40 years ago the bigots were honest

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 06:56 PM   #212
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As a group, homosexuals haven't had to fight for equality in the same way - they have been allowed to attend high schools and universities freely, vote, catch a bus home and sit wherever they like.

Part of that difference is that homosexuality is much more easily concealed than race and I do accept that there is a big difference between being allowed to do something because you're concealing a huge part of your identity, and being allowed to do something while being open about who you are.

But to compare the campaign for rights equality between white homosexuals and black people, ignoring the history of black people brought here as possessions that were traded like cattle, who had to start from there and work slowly towards equality, is something....that only a bunch of white people would ever do.

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:12 PM   #213
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http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/up...TrainWreck.jpg

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:36 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
As a group, homosexuals haven't had to fight for equality in the same way - they have been allowed to attend high schools and universities freely, vote, catch a bus home and sit wherever they like.

Part of that difference is that homosexuality is much more easily concealed than race and I do accept that there is a big difference between being allowed to do something because you're concealing a huge part of your identity, and being allowed to do something while being open about who you are.

But to compare the campaign for rights equality between white homosexuals and black people, ignoring the history of black people brought here as possessions that were traded like cattle, who had to start from there and work slowly towards equality, is something....that only a bunch of white people would ever do.
Your first paragraph is wrong (again it obviously manifests itself in different ways, I shouldn't have to reiterate this with every post). Your third is a straw man.

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:37 PM   #215
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You can't compare any two things unless they're exactly the same!!!!

The legislative solution is, quite obviously, the same. That's why the comparison is made.

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:50 PM   #216
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We point out the similarity to say "Hey, you're not adjusting with time and your ideas are a product of the time you live in and not of logic" not to say "It's literally as bad as 100's of years of subjugation"

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:51 PM   #217
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You can compare any two things if you like, but the usefulness of the comparison obviously isn't guaranteed.

You analysis of my first paragraph is wrong. And my third paragraph is not a straw man.

The legislative solution is only the same because in both cases, laws have been passed.

You're essentially saying seat belts are like marriage equality - we know it's worth making a comparison because in both cases, laws have been passed as a solution to a problem.

I mean, that's an interesting point I guess. But it doesn't really convince me that seat belts and marriage equality are very similar things, speaking more generally. So maybe comparing marriage equality to seat belts isn't actually that helpful...

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:54 PM   #218
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Really dumb

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:57 PM   #219
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really puerile comment

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:15 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
You can compare any two things if you like, but the usefulness of the comparison obviously isn't guaranteed.

You analysis of my first paragraph is wrong. And my third paragraph is not a straw man.

The legislative solution is only the same because in both cases, laws have been passed.

You're essentially saying seat belts are like marriage equality - we know it's worth making a comparison because in both cases, laws have been passed as a solution to a problem.

I mean, that's an interesting point I guess. But it doesn't really convince me that seat belts and marriage equality are very similar things, speaking more generally. So maybe comparing marriage equality to seat belts isn't actually that helpful...
We aren't talking about marriage, we are talking about american civil rights and public accommodation laws. So no, it's not anything like mandating seat belts. It's prohibiting businesses open to the public from discriminating against certain classes of the public.

You either really are that simple (in which case wow) or you're being willfully obtuse.

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:18 PM   #221
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Idk how many times you can explain civil rights to someone before you just give up

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:23 PM   #222
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Are there any incidences of this discrimination happening outside of the wedding industry though?

Because if not, that's not comparable to blacks not receiving any service at diners. That refusal of service was based on the idea that a human being's intrinsic value and worthiness of respect could be judged by the colour of their skin.

That is not the same AT ALL to the idea that it isn't good for two people of the same sex to be married, and very politely declining to cater for that wedding.

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:28 PM   #223
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its not the same at all except that it's a business open to the public refusing service to a certain class of the public based on an immutable trait and rooted in animus and ignorance.

And in many states we are actually a protected class. So it's not like I'm some radical here.

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:32 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poots View Post
Why does there have to be a comparison between gay rights and black rights? Why not just argue in favor of gay rights on its own merits?
Because the way to do it is to add sexual orientation and gender identity to existing civil rights statutes which were largely conceived as an attempt to remedy racism (although things like gender were added at the time, even though discrimination based on race and gender are... WAIT FOR IT... Really different!)

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:33 PM   #225
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You need to have a basic understanding of of American civil rights laws to be able to participate in a productive discussion about this

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:39 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
its not the same at all except that it's a business open to the public refusing service to a certain class of the public based on an immutable trait and rooted in animus and ignorance.

And in many states we are actually a protected class. So it's not like I'm some radical here.
Yeah but I'm no radical either - opinion is split among legal/philosophical academics from what I understand. Because not everybody agrees with your point that the situation is as simple as a business refusing service...

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:45 PM   #227
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I appreciate your point about having a basic understanding of American civil rights and thank you for explaining how rights are granted through amending current statutes and what those statutes are & their history. That does help me to see where you're coming from, and I do agree with you.

I wonder if in particular, the wedding issue should be treated as a special case - only because it might keep the peace better than playing hardball. Hard to tell if it would only cause more division. But little mom and pop type small businesses being allowed to continue politely declining to cater for gay weddings doesn't seem like the same thing to me as point blank refusing all service to gay people.

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 09:59 PM   #228
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why are humans so terrible anyway

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 10:14 PM   #229
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http://www.evolbiol.ru/gene/images_3rd/1cover.jpg

 
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Old 04-14-2015, 10:22 PM   #230
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When I recall that the word "meme" was invented by richard Dawkins, that's how I know that there is real evil in the world and that we need God to protect us.

 
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Old 04-15-2015, 12:55 AM   #231
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what is wrong with the concept that ideas are viral?

 
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Old 04-15-2015, 01:00 AM   #232
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A meme is not a viral idea, necessarily, in that it doesn't necessarily hijack an existing idea the way that viruses hijack pre-existing genetic info.

A meme is just an idea that replicates similarly to how genetic information does.

It's an imprecise and possibly useless concept.

 
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Old 04-15-2015, 01:00 AM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
The persecution complex of the American christian makes me want to barf so hard.
the entire white male right wing you mean

MRAs
gamergate
christian right
tea party
etc

Last edited by Trotskilicious : 04-15-2015 at 01:24 AM.

 
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Old 04-15-2015, 01:03 AM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
I would have thought that being a dyed-in-the-wool Amurrican, you would be all into the laissez-faire freedom of contract type situation...
incomprehensibly stupid comment

 
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Old 04-15-2015, 01:12 AM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottytheoneand View Post
at least 40 years ago the bigots were honest
ikr

 
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Old 04-15-2015, 01:23 AM   #236
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dear netphoria,

you're not going to like this

1. first of all having compare and contrast pissing contests between minority groups is stupid, has to stop, and is indeed something only white people do. equal rights for all is really the only common denominator. oppression of homosexuality and oppression of race are not fungible. they're so different on a psychological and historical scale. the issue when you try to bring them together it's like you're raking people's oppression. it's like the very stupid question of who was worse, hitler or stalin or pol pot or etc. everyone's equal, so is their struggle (except you know who obvs)

2. poots sometimes has a good point that he puts in the stupidest way possible so everyone ignores it but the cake thing is like...why are you going to MAKE someone make something edible for you when they are full of spite towards you? So would it be acceptable for them to put up a bunch of jesus stuff in their store so you know what you're getting into? I mean...cake for a gay wedding from a bunch of backwoods Christians is at the very least going to be made poorly out of spite.

3. GOD HATES FAGS

Regards,
B. Sweeney

Last edited by Trotskilicious : 04-15-2015 at 03:43 AM.

 
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Old 04-15-2015, 01:30 AM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
It's just a lunch counter

-vixnix in 1962
comparing the climate of jim crow south in the 60s and the climate of rural Indiana in 2010s is every bit as ridiculous as vixnix comparing you to Lenin...

these things just aren't fungible. i'm not trying to rank gays and blacks on the "how oppressed are you?" buzzfeed quiz, i just don't think it's appropriate.


(PS they were better off under Lenin compared to the Tsar)

 
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Old 04-15-2015, 01:46 AM   #238
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(well....some of them)

 
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Old 04-15-2015, 01:52 AM   #239
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yeah the aristocracy got the short end of the stick

 
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Old 04-15-2015, 01:53 AM   #240
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because if you were a peasant that starved to death under Lenin it's actually the same result you'd get under Tsar Nicholas II

withdrawing from WWI was immediate improvement on its own

there was a civil war of course

 
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