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Old 12-01-2013, 11:07 PM   #181
Order 66
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the way i see it netphoria should be paying me

 
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Old 12-01-2013, 11:12 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Araneae View Post
That's great, I'm sure there is, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. We're discussing a very specific situation where the people in question were not having their work stolen or losing money from it. Everyone on this forum should pay for the use of their fucking avatars if we're going to use that logic here.
unfortunately no since i'm sure tina fey and steve buscemi have been very well compensated for the media that i've taken a screen shot of

we're talking about basic compensation for photography and you're trying to act like you're entitled to free shit

whatever, fuck you!

 
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Old 12-01-2013, 11:14 PM   #183
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Fucking hell, Trots, that's how the law works.

 
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Old 12-01-2013, 11:38 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Araneae View Post
Fucking hell, Trots, that's how the law works.
There is no international standardized copyright law, otherwise it would be a lot easier.

 
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Old 12-01-2013, 11:50 PM   #185
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That was in reference to Trots' comment. He wouldn't be sued by Tina Fey or Steve Buschemi because anything they do on, what I'm assuming is from SNL, is owned by SNL, whose rights are owned by NBC. And if NBC wanted to go after a bunch of fan sites they technically could, they just wouldn't because there's no money in it.

 
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Old 12-01-2013, 11:59 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by pavementtune View Post
For me personally that doesn't change that I love a lot of music "they" put out within two decades, but it is what it is. Good luck with your teahouse and give me the fucking Adore reissue.
Yes, please. It would have been interesting to hear the album had Jimmy recorded his own drum parts for it, which I think is something he mentioned at one point.

Now that he has quit, I wonder if Billy will ever release that book of his. Seems like a waste to spend two years writing it and then abandon it because he feels "under-appreciated."

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 12:29 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Araneae View Post
That was in reference to Trots' comment. He wouldn't be sued by Tina Fey or Steve Buschemi because anything they do on, what I'm assuming is from SNL, is owned by SNL, whose rights are owned by NBC. And if NBC wanted to go after a bunch of fan sites they technically could, they just wouldn't because there's no money in it.
it's from 30 rock and you're really trying to change the subject from the fact that you don't think bystarlight should pay people for their photographs

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 12:49 AM   #188
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I'm not and I never said that. 30 Rock is still copyrighted and your use of it on a fan site still allows the law to sue people who use it without permission. I'm arguing on the principle that Bystarlight serves the same function that Infinite Pictures did, which is a harmless fan site that compiled a database of photographs for archival purposes. Bystarlight took the extra step to ensure that all known photographers were credited and disclaimers were added, nothing was used for commercial purposes. With the way things unfolded, it appears to me that a photographer wanted more than just having their photographs taken down. Now it does get into the gray here, but that's where I feel it crosses the line. I personally don't mind people using my work without compensating me as long as it is not used for commercial purposes, which does color my stance on this.

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 01:15 AM   #189
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it just seems like "concert photography" is constantly being bumped down to amateur level where nobody ever gets paid for anything unless you're hip and you know a guy at pitchfork or something

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 01:19 AM   #190
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Well on the other hand, good shots that are 20 years old are just being archived, no profit whatsoever. And photogs threaten to sue. I mean what the hell. With the current state of SP those pics would never surface anywhere else, because nobody would pay to use them. So why not allow a fanpage to archive your old pics - with credits - before nobody ever looks at it again.

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 01:27 AM   #191
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i think what i'm getting at is that these photographers are poor and the internet is using all of their work for free

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 01:28 AM   #192
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print doesn't pay anybody anything when they can find an image with no watermark by trolling flicker

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 03:26 AM   #193
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It's this - making profit off something else someone created while they receive no compensation whatsoever is wrong. If you could prove that someone was profiting off your copyright, you would be 100% legally covered. But, here in a America, due to how we value free speech and the ability to quote and remix old forms into new forms for the sake of art, criticism, commentary, and expression, the onus must be on the originator of the work to prove wrongdoing or harm. Shit like SOPA (which thankfully, did not pass...though other, similarly provisioned "free trade" bills are currently pending of course) attempts to completely reverse that relationship so the onus is always on the user/archiver/satirist/documentarian, etc. to prove that they are NOT doing anything intrinsically wrong or illegal.

Simply putting ton of images that were already floating around freely out there, in addition to those which people VOLUNTARILY submitted/uploaded, in a single accessible place so that they can be viewed hardly seems threatening or lawbreaking in any fashion. If you tried to use any of those images in any commercial way whatsoever (such as a site that generated revenue as a business) someone could still rightly sue the shit out of you.

I've had to pay for use of stock images on a commercial website and that seems fair enough. Also, if you want a truly quality print the publisher will always have control of that - unless they were so stupid as to publish a lossless graphic format photo directly to the internet for everyone to access and download freely to create their own glossy 8x12 prints. However I suspect that many of these online stock photo sites probably pay the photographers pennies on the dollar for their work. Again it's the middleman siphoning a majority of the profits away from the actual creator of the work because they can. That's how it always seems to function.

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 03:39 AM   #194
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and what is your solution to this? is there one?

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 04:13 AM   #195
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I feel the gross imbalance would decrease immediately and at least somewhat upon just getting decent people in positions of political leadership from which they are now precluded due to pissing off all the wrong people who would give them money enough to run viably for such a position. Which of course is really an issue of all the quasi-bribery that goes on at the congressional level and within pretty much any federal regulatory agency it seems. Start with a real fucking democracy, that would be start. Have laws authored by actual autonomous beings and not corporate sponsors/patrons. Meaningful changes could flow from there. Not to denigrate the frankly courageous mayors and cities that have stepped out to defy their state governments or even the federal government on issues such as expanded broadband connectivity, living wages, marijuana legalization or gay marriage. It is in these changes where I am seeing hope.

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 04:32 AM   #196
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Politics are basically just a tool where I come from, and nothing else. There is no interest to run a country as actual democracy.
But hey, maybe Texas is completely different. And you'll see a working democracy in your lifetime. Something that keeps failing since, um, Athens 500 B.C.?
(Don't shoot me trots, accurate history dates are not my thing.)

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 04:40 AM   #197
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sounds about right.

to the wikipedia!

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 04:41 AM   #198
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yep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#Ancient_origins
"Led by Cleisthenes, Athenians established what is generally held as the first democracy in 508-507 BCE."

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 04:49 AM   #199
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Reprise life lesson: Unless you are EXTREMELY lucky as well as ridiculously benevolent and intelligent (and even then), you will only be able to help those who you 1) interact with personally or 2) interact with directly or indirectly in a small sub-field of society

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 04:53 AM   #200
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like it is possible to make changes and shit like legalizing pot is really awesome i'm not trying to be facetious, but like wowzers too bad about all them homeless people at least they can smoke pot

i mean big picture less people will become homeless of the cascade of being caught with pot and charged with some ridiculous felony and then not be able to get a job with a record and etc etc and that really is something good and something to be proud of so who am i to shit in your sandwich really

 
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Old 12-02-2013, 08:58 AM   #201
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I went to a copyright seminar.

The lawyer on the panel said that copyright laws were created to protect the artist so that they were able to make money off their artwork to create future art. However, as many laws there are grey areas and is an old law. It was never intended to be used to extort money from fans who are just passionate about the band. It needs to be updated to protect fans. Fans who create elaborate websites like bystarlight actually aid the artist to make money. It is unfortunate that one photographer was such a cunty bitch.

I still think bystarlight, should have let Billy know what happened. I am pretty sure he would have been pissed, since no one shits on his fans but him. A lawyer letter from his bff who is an attorney would have shut that guy up.

 
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:59 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by reprise85 View Post
like it is possible to make changes and shit like legalizing pot is really awesome i'm not trying to be facetious, but like wowzers too bad about all them homeless people at least they can smoke pot

i mean big picture less people will become homeless of the cascade of being caught with pot and charged with some ridiculous felony and then not be able to get a job with a record and etc etc and that really is something good and something to be proud of so who am i to shit in your sandwich really
This is really about the "hot" issues (pot, gay marriage, mandatory max sentencing, living wage, etc.) reaching critical mass within the conscience of the collective general public, which EVENTUALLY tends to influence judiciary rulings and legislators, thereby changing the paradigm with time. It's about building pressure and publicity. Unless you're fucking Bono or Oprah or whomever rich benefactor, you can't rain money on a problem to change it directly. Hell, THEY don't even really alleviate problems as a whole...they just create highly visible examples that further raise awareness but only directly help a small subset (as you point out) and of course make themselves feel warm and fuzzy inside as they convince themselves that they are saving the world.

I'm not arguing for reliance upon individual actions solve things, not at all. (It tangentially reminds me of the delusional "charities will solve everything" mentality which conveniently ignores that charities can't pool the billions of dollars in money, resources, and logistics necessary which will go missing if you cut off every government entitlement/welfare/subsidy/etc. and rely purely upon voluntary contribution.) But a multitude of actions over time collectively DO work, even if it is terribly messy and takes a good long while to see the effects. I mean, I DO think the gay marriage thing is a really good example here because the vast majority of people over a decade ago couldn't even conceive of such a thing, yet, here we are and city by city, state by state, it is happening, and even the federal judiciaries now seem to be on board with defending the new and enlightened understanding of secular marriage which a statistical majority of the country now supports. Same thing with pot. Same thing with a number of living wage measures taken up by individual cities. People have had it and the tide is starting to change in a number of areas which desperately need attention.

It happens because on some level it is actually possible to change things within one's most localized sphere of influence, simply because the numbers required to reach "critical mass" is so much smaller at the local level, and it is that much less difficult to be the loudest voice and raise holy hell on a particular issue. (Walkouts, strikes, public stunts, civil disobedience all included.) Sometimes at this level particular positions have yet to become politicized so clearly to one side or another (neighbors and all) that individuals are willing to stand on the "other side of the fence" without feeling like they are betraying their overall affiliation or whatever, just because, on a human-to-human level, it feels like the right thing to support. Sometimes the outside influence also has less effect, or is simply not as engaged (read: using extremely well connected special interest groups to throw money and propaganda into the fight) as they may become once it reaches the national level of "change threat". "Change threat" tends to bring the sharks right out of the deep.

Quote:
Politics are basically just a tool where I come from, and nothing else. There is no interest to run a country as actual democracy.
But hey, maybe Texas is completely different.
I agree 100% about that. Texas is no different, and very pathologically run as you can imagine. It is very telling that any initiative which would substantially alter laws in such a way as to make the government more just, representative, and/or directly democratic is always inevitably rejected wholesale by BOTH party structures and initiatives from people like Bernie Sanders don't stand a chance in hell. A well entrenched, supposedly "progressive" party democrat like Nancy Pelosi would fuck him over on an issue in two seconds flat. (Note, the Bernie Sanders type representatives are never invited to be a part of the leet "select committees" on anything.) They actually love this shit, just the way it is.

Last edited by stumpycat : 12-05-2013 at 09:05 PM.

 
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:18 PM   #203
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aare you fucking serious

 
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:51 PM   #204
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ok so i read your post and understand your points but i dont know where this is going

like i think what i said here:
Quote:
Reprise life lesson: Unless you are EXTREMELY lucky as well as ridiculously benevolent and intelligent (and even then), you will only be able to help those who you 1) interact with personally or 2) interact with directly or indirectly in a small sub-field of society
is the bottom line. now, if you can be happy with influencing what and who you can, that seems more important to me than finding out some way to change the world, which is not possible on a large scale for anyone unless perhaps it's something awful like starting a nuclear war, etc

but yeah i dont even know if that's what we're talking about and i refuse to re-read the thread

 
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:09 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by reprise85 View Post
ok so i read your post and understand your points but i dont know where this is going

like i think what i said here:


is the bottom line. now, if you can be happy with influencing what and who you can, that seems more important to me than finding out some way to change the world, which is not possible on a large scale for anyone unless perhaps it's something awful like starting a nuclear war, etc

but yeah i dont even know if that's what we're talking about and i refuse to re-read the thread
No, that's exactly what my post was talking about. It seems really the messages are in agreement. I was just saying that in reality, our ability to change things relies upon being able to comprise part of a more collective tide pushing in that direction. The degree of influence most of us do or don't have as individuals, we can probably never come to know except to believe that we were somehow part of something bigger. Yeah, some individuals obviously become cause celebrities, and may have that rare degree of disproportionate influence but most of us don't and never will. I guess the message is...just do what you can without becoming too anxious about the degree of influence.

 
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:14 PM   #206
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aare you fucking serious
When you boil over with sarcasm like that it is really hard to interpret what in particular has offended your sensibilities, or even your actual sincere opinion. Like you always think I am trying to rub you the wrong way of something.

 
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Old 12-06-2013, 05:23 AM   #207
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He has no horse in this race. Ignore him.

 
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Old 12-06-2013, 05:34 AM   #208
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http://exclaim.ca/images/darcy.jpg

 
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