Corgan Quote Audit and Discussion

[Deadeyes]

Originally Posted by sleeper

i think he only really sold out post adore, so i wont say he was a humping gimmicks and cliches all the way back, although i do think he was very conscious of the way audiences and industry worked and exploited it cynically in a way that is inconsistent with his own professed beliefs, yes, but also common decency. so if he isnt a dirtbag, hes at least as hypocrite, although id say hes enough of both.


i think alternative has its roots in that stuff and i think that a lot of people today are just cynics exploiting that legacy through cheap symbols that idiot audiences buy into as part of the whole rock myth. i think a guy can win cheap love by playing off these preconceptions, and its only possible for him to do so because of, yes, how inane and phony rock audiences are. i hate bringing this guy up as some kind of martyr or something, i think that so tacky, but cobain didnt seem to pleased with exactly this, with "grunge shirts" being sold at walmart and how fake it all really was past a certain point.

i mean i was part of those audiences and still sometimes am, so im not saying that as a rule somebody who likes the music is such a tool, but that so many are. like i said, though, this is in all popular music it seems. its just too easy to be a demagogue, and i dont like those that stoop to that level and play that game. all told corgan isnt at the bottom of the barrel (rolling stones and flagrant opportunists like velvet revolver are there) but hes bad enough


and i wrote a lot in this thread about how i still love the music, even the music made in bad faith. i wont repeat myself now with that stuff but its there to read if youre curious

He's hypocritical for sure, but I do seem to recall him saying you can only steal the best parts from past music and mix it up into your own. I don't view him as indecent towards popular music past, and he has given credit where it's due.

Perhaps the base thing about the Pumpkins that draws me is that I do relate to much that Corgan says (within the music) and I know some of it very emotive and even hard for him to do (was atleast). Maybe he has grown up to become somewhat of a mess, and Zwan and TFE was more a desperate attempt to use some kind of broadening horizons tactic (though I think creatively it was cool for him to experiment) to test the waters, or do quickly before he faded away or revived The Smashing Pumpkins (he may have planned it to fall back on). But that emotion was not lies, not fickle words to draw the crowds, he meant it and it shows.

I know how he felt, and that want to connect is to me powerful art. You can look at it and call it selfish, but it is something that he needed to express. I think the industry and his failures have been what has caused him to change. Also I guess once he bled those things out and people loved him for it, he thought that no matter what he did people would understand/accept, ego sky rockets, and then boom...Adore.

Great now I have taken this in a complete different direction to defend him
Well I don't defend him, perhaps I just think of him more as he was, I can't really dislike the guy.

[teh b0lly!!1]

its really sad that a guy who did literally little to no wrong from 1988 to 2000 (at least in my eyes) is taking such a steep fall for the past seven years.
i dont really feel like repeating points that were discussed in this thread, but yet its surprising to me that this thread is going on for 7 pages with some people even defending billy. what is there to defend?
there is no argument here whatso-fucking-ever.
the guy has been a complete fucking loser who cant do any single thing right for the past 7 years. its like bizarro billy. he had a near flawless decade with the pumpkins and now he can't do a single thing right.
zwan sucked, his solo album was mediocre, the things that were actually worthwhile weren't released, now he's about to butcher the smashing pumpkins' name (hopefully im wrong about the last one).
he made so many promises and didnt keep a single one.
i secretly hope that the zeitgeist is good, but that it will flop like no billy album has flopped before. just so he fucking gets it through his skull that all his stupid games and mindfucks serve nothing and no one else but himself.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

This is definitely true.

In a lot of ways, I see Corgan kind of revelling in the fact that he can do something and people automatically latch onto it (within the context of the Pumpkins.) A power trip? Maybe. Perhaps it's just because he feels that the world needs to hear what he has to say, which is, in and of itself, narcissistic.

I've known people who are like him, but on a lesser scale. They feel everything they have to say is some sort of major revelation and that the art that they produce have some lasting value that's above everyone else's head.

In the end, I think the guy is innocent enough, and I think he has the potential to make good music. It doesn't mean I have to like his personality and everything that he does, though.

Bottom line: people who are good at music can be bad at life.

i definitely think things have gone to his head. i think he actually believes he has like a "mission to ROCK" or whatever.

certainly if his music was worse he'd be a million more times insufferable. but hes rapidly losing his capital in that area, what with zwan and TFE. if zeitgeist bombs hes lost all right to be 'bad at life' or whatever

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by sleeper

i dont know. i get the impression that the music is kind of being generated automatically, by, as said, the kind of rock rulebook he developed over the years. zwan was such an encapsulation of this i think, where it just this weird assemblage of the most tired rock cliches and everything. i think in the ways it differed from those cliches were actually accidental, a failure. bottom line is that i think post adore hes been very calculated in everything hes done. i think some broader material ambition is greater than any actual musical desire. the latter is following the former, to one degree or another.

yes, i agree with you that zwan was the exception - that he forced himself to write in a far more typical rock style than is his wont, at least with those songs that made the album; which is why it jarred with so many pumpkins fans. certainly he has shown a tendency to over-think his next move. hopefully he will break out of this cycle of behaviour with zeitgeist.

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

In a lot of ways, I see Corgan kind of revelling in the fact that he can do something and people automatically latch onto it (within the context of the Pumpkins.) A power trip? Maybe. Perhaps it's just because he feels that the world needs to hear what he has to say, which is, in and of itself, narcissistic.

I've known people who are like him, but on a lesser scale. They feel everything they have to say is some sort of major revelation and that the art that they produce have some lasting value that's above everyone else's head.

most people, with no positive reinforcement (sales, fans, critical hoopla) evidence this kind of behaviour, the need to be heard or admired. this is easily demonstrated by the mass desire of the ordinary to become celebrities, via the reality tv route. but, on a more mundane level it can be seen in those wishing to dominate others, by force of personality, the many blowhards encountered virtually anywhere, even on internet message boards.

nobody who writes and desires to perform their own material is exempt from an excess of self-belief. especially those who gain recognition. is it disappointing to see one's heroes demonstrating the frailties of a mere mortal? of course. should it be entirely unexpected? no. and, even in his heyday billy often referred to himself as an asshole; it was just easier to overlook his flaws because he produced better music. they've always been there.

[wHATcOLOR]

for all the smack i about the bill corgan of recent years, i ought to be fair and give credit where credit is due. mcis, tafh, and adore are pretty much untouchable in my mind. even though i don't listen to them as often as i used to, they'll still always be super significant to me

[Kayfabe]

Originally Posted by benjamin619

Zwan was on a magazine cover, and inside Billy said the band was better than sex. Clearly, this was not quite the case.

not to other band members, at least

[selection7]

You're a strange bunch...a very silly bunch of wannabe shrinks, indeed. It's weird watching you people egg each other on and pat each other on the back for it while the rest of us just shake our heads. You've all lost your minds.

But anyways, I'll leave it to you ...knock yourselves out.

[Mablak]

Originally Posted by selection7

You're a strange bunch...a very silly bunch of wannabe shrinks, indeed. It's weird watching you people egg each other on and pat each other on the back for it while the rest of us just shake our heads. You've all lost your minds.

But anyways, I'll leave it to you ...knock yourselves out.

You're already one of us, you have proven yourself.