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Old 12-15-2008, 06:49 PM   #1
carapatricia
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Default in response to the press saying pumpkins "don't play the hits"

Hipstersunited.com has broken down the tours into statistics, trying to prove... something.

Hipsters United // a blog about the Smashing Pumpkins Tour breakdowns by album-era

Quote:
I’m sure by now we’re all well aware of the claims that this last tour was, at least according to the popular press, made up almost entirely of Zeitgeist material, with a dearth of older fan-friendly hits. I recall at least one mention in one of the latest podcasts about wondering how the breakdown compared to other tours, so I decided to run a quick query.

The results below are broken down as follows: each album-era tour is split into date ranges according to when the tour either obviously started (i.e. the Double Door shows for MCIS, Arising! for Machina, or a 7-year gap for Zeitgeist), or from the first show at which a significant perecentage of songs played were from that era’s album (note that most, if not all, of these eras precede the actual albums’ release dates). For a song to be counted as part of that era, it must be a released track from that album, or one of its b-sides, as noted below. Also, no soundchecks (not that there’s that much data to throw it off), and only full performances are counted (no teases/abandons).

Gish: Gish and Lull
SD: Siamese Dream and Pisces Iscariot (may ******* some Gish-era b-sides, but it was easier to count this way)
MCIS: Mellon Collie and The Aeroplane Flies High box set
Adore: Adore and TEITBITE (the Adore-era b-sides were only played once or twice each, if at all, and aren’t counted)
Machina: Machina and Machina II (this means LMGTWTY counts as Machina-era in the scores below)
Zeitgeist: Zeitgeist, American Gothic and G.L.O.W

All other unreleased tracks and covers are listed under ‘Unreleased/Other’. So, how did each tour stack up?

Album/Era -- Distinct Songs -- Song Performances -- % of song perf
Gish Tour (1990/06/16 - 1992/09/??) : 474 total song performances
Gish: 11 310 65.4 %
SD: 7 101 21.3 %
Unreleased/other: 19 63 13.3 %
SD Tour (1992/06/09 - 1994/09/08) : 1678 total song performances
Gish: 12 359 21.4 %
SD: 22 1143 68.1 %
MCIS: 1 3 0.2 %
Unreleased/other: 18 173 10.3 %
MCIS Tour (1995/02/20 - 1997/12/05) : 3084 total song performances
Gish: 2 79 2.6 %
SD: 15 701 22.7 %
MCIS: 34 2172 70.4 %
Adore: 4 18 0.6 %
Unreleased/other: 32 114 3.7 %
Adore Tour (1998/01/15 - 1998/12/12) : 826 total song performances
Gish: 0 0 0.0 %
SD: 2 5 0.6 %
MCIS: 9 196 23.7 %
Adore: 15 552 66.8 %
Machina: 3 17 2.1 %
Unreleased/other: 16 56 6.8 %
Machina Tour (1999/04/10 - 2000/12/02) : 2585 total song performances
Gish: 5 74 2.9 %
SD: 11 359 13.9 %
MCIS: 11 458 17.7 %
Adore: 10 267 10.3 %
Machina: 23 1123 43.4 %
Unreleased/other: 18 304 11.8 %
Zeitgeist Tour (2007/05/22 - 2008/12/08) : 3743 total song performances
Gish: 4 67 1.8 %
SD: 10 509 13.6 %
MCIS: 22 752 20.1 %
Adore: 9 255 6.8 %
Machina: 18 522 13.9 %
Zeitgeist: 19 879 23.5 %
Unreleased/other: 51 759 20.3 %

Looks like the average range was about 60-70% new album material for each era up through Adore, and then dropped sharply down to 43% for the Machina-era tour. This last tour was less than 25% (released) Zeitgeist material. Even if we count the ‘Unreleased/Other’ category as all brand-new songs (which they’re not, since there were a few covers thrown in, plus I Am One part II), that’s still only about 44% “Zeitgeist-era” material - exactly the same ratio as there was during the Machina tour. The only thing different about this tour is the sheer number of unique unreleased songs, but this is largely because there haven’t been many b-sides released for Zeitgeist. If we excluded Machina II, we might see similar numbers for the Machina era.


Now, I don’t know about you, but I certainly don’t recall the press claiming back then that the Machina tour was “entirely new material” with a dearth of older hits. If any tour qualifies for that, I would have to say it’s the Adore tour, with over 90% of the tour made up entirely of Adore and Mellon Collie tracks, less than 1% Siamese Dream songs, and not a single Gish song performance.


I could probably come up with slightly more accurate numbers by matching each individual song, rather than matching album tracks, and the Gish data is obviously far less complete than tours since MCIS, but I don’t think the results would vary by more than a few percent. Bottom line? The media frequently have no idea what they’re talking about. But then again, I suppose - at least around here - we already knew that.

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 08:42 PM   #2
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the thing is, none of those tours were billed as "20th anniversary tours"

and I don't think anyone is peeved at the song variety on the ZG tour, it was pretty great.
Its just that this tour's title was misleading to most people. While I enjoyed it, I can't blame people for being upset.

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 08:48 PM   #3
Esty
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Does HU ever, and I mean EVER, say one fucking negative thing about Corgan?

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 08:53 PM   #4
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I'm actually with Esty on this one. For me, it's nice to see mostly intelligent voice against all the hate but they can stop S'ing his D at any time.

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 08:56 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avsfan7733 View Post
the thing is, none of those tours were billed as "20th anniversary tours"

and I don't think anyone is peeved at the song variety on the ZG tour, it was pretty great.
Its just that this tour's title was misleading to most people. While I enjoyed it, I can't blame people for being upset.
i bet if you break down the anniversary tour it will show a pretty good selection of their 20 years as a band. do it, i dare you.

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 09:13 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlissedandGone2 View Post
i bet if you break down the anniversary tour it will show a pretty good selection of their 20 years as a band. do it, i dare you.
they do it here:

Quote:
Zeitgeist Tour (2007/05/22 - 2008/12/08) : 3743 total song performances
Gish: 4 67 1.8 %
SD: 10 509 13.6 %
MCIS: 22 752 20.1 %
Adore: 9 255 6.8 %
Machina: 18 522 13.9 %
Zeitgeist: 19 879 23.5 %
Unreleased/other: 51 759 20.3 %
They use all the dates from release of Z to now.. being of the same 'era'.

20% of songs being from MCIS, 23% from Zeitgeist, 13% of SD and Machina.. 20% of it was unreleased/other, meaning non-album tracks, i think (like iamonpt2 etc) and covers.

I think the article is trying to say that compared with say, the Adore tour, this last tour was full of old material and the press labeled it as 'not playing to the fans'.

The thing about HU is, they never really get to their point..

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 09:31 PM   #7
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this whole thread is tl;dr but if the perception is they're not playing their hits and hence people think the tour is shitty it doesn't really matter what the math is

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 09:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlissedandGone2 View Post
i bet if you break down the anniversary tour it will show a pretty good selection of their 20 years as a band. do it, i dare you.
All I'm saying is that I can understand how people would be upset at the song selection.

I can (somewhat) enjoy 25 minutes of Billy Corgan on the timpani... but can the casual audience?? Probably not.

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 09:33 PM   #9
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i like it on the timpani when you hit it and then push the tuning pedal thing and it goes



BOOWWWWWwwoooooooooOOOOOOOO

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 09:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenguy2000 View Post
i like it on the timpani when you hit it and then push the tuning pedal thing and it goes



BOOWWWWWwwoooooooooOOOOOOOO


I used to do that all the time in orchestra.

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 09:45 PM   #11
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i used the chicago shows since they were the last ones.

WC:
* Ava Adore - Adore
* Cupid de Locke - MCIS
* 1979 - MCIS
* 99 Floors - Z
* Owata - Z
* Sunkissed - Z
* Soma - SD
* Cherub Rock - SD
* Zero - MCIS
* Bodies - MCIS
* Crestfallen - Adore
* I of the Mourning - MACH
* A Song for a Son - Z
* Landslide [Nicks] - SD/cover
* Disarm - SD
* Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness - MCIS
* Galapogos - MCIS
* Gossamer - Z
* As Rome Burns - Z
* The Sounds of Silence [Simon] -cover
> Li'l Red Riding Hood [Blackwell] -cover
* The March Hare - Z
> Suffer -GISH
* Age of Innocence - MACH
* That's the Way (My Love Is) - Z
* I Am One Pt. 2 - GISH

BS: Set:
* Roctopus - Z/unreleased
* Everybody Come Clap Your Hands [Searchers] - cover/unreleased
* Tarantula - Z
* G.L.O.W. - Z
* Siva - Gish
* Eye - Adore
* Mayonaise - SD
* Tonight, Tonight -MCIS
* Speed Kills - MACH
* Transformer - MCIS
* Superchrist - Z
* United States - Z
* Once Upon a Time - Adore
* Again, Again, Again (The Crux) - Z
* The Rose March -Z
* Today - SD
* Bullet with Butterfly Wings - MCIS
* The Beginning Is the End Is the Beginning - Adore
* Heavy Metal Machine - MACH
* Glass' Theme - MACH
* Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun [Pink Floyd] - cover/unreleased
* We Only Come Out at Night - MCIS
* Everything Is Beautiful [Ray Stevens] - cover/unrleased

One-off
Set:
* Tonight, Tonight -MCIS
* Tarantula - Z
* Stand Inside Your Love - MACH
* Mayonaise - SD
* Today - SD
* Gossamer - Z
* 99 Floors - Z
* Owata - Z
* Soma - SD
* Cherub Rock - SD
* Zero - MCIS
* Bodies - MCIS
* United States - Z
* A Song for a Son -Z
* Medellia of the Gray Skies - MCIS
* Communion - Z
* Bullet with Butterfly Wings -MCIS
* Superchrist - Z
* Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun [Pink Floyd] -cover/unrleased
* Ava Adore - Adore
* 1979 - MCIS
* Disarm - SD


not counting the halloween show cause that was mostly covers. anyone wanna run with this ?
or debate designation of eras?

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 10:22 PM   #12
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THE MCIS TOUR WAS AWESOME BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T PLAY ANY NEW CRAP LIKE STUFF FROM MACHINA GUYS!!

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 10:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carapatricia View Post
they do it here:



They use all the dates from release of Z to now.. being of the same 'era'.

20% of songs being from MCIS, 23% from Zeitgeist, 13% of SD and Machina.. 20% of it was unreleased/other, meaning non-album tracks, i think (like iamonpt2 etc) and covers.

I think the article is trying to say that compared with say, the Adore tour, this last tour was full of old material and the press labeled it as 'not playing to the fans'.

The thing about HU is, they never really get to their point..

theres a big difference between all the sets from zeitgeist to now and from teh anniversary tour. you missed my point.

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 10:36 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carapatricia View Post
i used the chicago shows since they were the last ones.

WC:
* Ava Adore - Adore
* Cupid de Locke - MCIS
* 1979 - MCIS
* 99 Floors - Z
* Owata - Z
* Sunkissed - Z
* Soma - SD
* Cherub Rock - SD
* Zero - MCIS
* Bodies - MCIS
* Crestfallen - Adore
* I of the Mourning - MACH
* A Song for a Son - Z
* Landslide [Nicks] - SD/cover
* Disarm - SD
* Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness - MCIS
* Galapogos - MCIS
* Gossamer - Z
* As Rome Burns - Z
* The Sounds of Silence [Simon] -cover
> Li'l Red Riding Hood [Blackwell] -cover
* The March Hare - Z
> Suffer -GISH
* Age of Innocence - MACH
* That's the Way (My Love Is) - Z
* I Am One Pt. 2 - GISH

BS: Set:
* Roctopus - Z/unreleased
* Everybody Come Clap Your Hands [Searchers] - cover/unreleased
* Tarantula - Z
* G.L.O.W. - Z
* Siva - Gish
* Eye - Adore
* Mayonaise - SD
* Tonight, Tonight -MCIS
* Speed Kills - MACH
* Transformer - MCIS
* Superchrist - Z
* United States - Z
* Once Upon a Time - Adore
* Again, Again, Again (The Crux) - Z
* The Rose March -Z
* Today - SD
* Bullet with Butterfly Wings - MCIS
* The Beginning Is the End Is the Beginning - Adore
* Heavy Metal Machine - MACH
* Glass' Theme - MACH
* Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun [Pink Floyd] - cover/unreleased
* We Only Come Out at Night - MCIS
* Everything Is Beautiful [Ray Stevens] - cover/unrleased

One-off
Set:
* Tonight, Tonight -MCIS
* Tarantula - Z
* Stand Inside Your Love - MACH
* Mayonaise - SD
* Today - SD
* Gossamer - Z
* 99 Floors - Z
* Owata - Z
* Soma - SD
* Cherub Rock - SD
* Zero - MCIS
* Bodies - MCIS
* United States - Z
* A Song for a Son -Z
* Medellia of the Gray Skies - MCIS
* Communion - Z
* Bullet with Butterfly Wings -MCIS
* Superchrist - Z
* Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun [Pink Floyd] -cover/unrleased
* Ava Adore - Adore
* 1979 - MCIS
* Disarm - SD


not counting the halloween show cause that was mostly covers. anyone wanna run with this ?
or debate designation of eras?
so wht do the percentages end up being?

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 10:48 PM   #15
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http://hipstersunited.com/blog/archi...album-era.html

*test post*

Just seeing if Hipster's United post this post in their comments section because I mention HU in it.

Last edited by Shallowed : 12-16-2008 at 07:25 AM.

 
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Old 12-15-2008, 11:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlissedandGone2 View Post
theres a big difference between all the sets from zeitgeist to now and from teh anniversary tour. you missed my point.
thats why i posted the new setlists. someone do the math!

 
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Old 12-16-2008, 12:03 AM   #17
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Here is the breakdown of the two standard shows from this tour:

--Gish era- 2 songs, 4.08% of setlists
--SD era*- 6 songs, 12.24% of setlists
--MCIS era- 10 songs, 20.4% of setlists
--Adore era- 5 songs, 10.2% of setlists
--Machina era- 5 songs, 10.2% of setlists
--Zeitgeist era**- 12 songs, 24.48% of setlists
--New songs***- 9 songs, 18.37% of setlists

*Landslide is included
**Includes Zeitgeist, its b-sides, the residencies, American Gothic, and other shit they have done up until this current tour
***Songs never played before this tour, including covers

Also...

--Covers- 6 songs, 12.24% of setlists
--Singles- 16 songs, 32.65% of setlists
--Pre-reunion songs- 29 songs, 59.18% of setlists
--Post-reunion songs- 20 songs, 40.82% of setlists

Conclusions:

ONE THIRD of all songs played across the two nights were singles
THREE FIFTHS of all songs played across the two nights are from before the breakup
ONE FOURTH of all songs played across the two nights came from the Zeitgeist era, that is from the reunion until just before this latest tour.
less than ONE FIFTH of all songs played across the two nights were totally new, this includes covers

Last edited by redbreegull : 12-16-2008 at 12:09 AM.

 
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Old 12-16-2008, 12:09 AM   #18
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whatever, both of these setlists were fucking awesome. not perfect, but fucking awesome.

if you would have told me one year ago that i would see Transformer, TBITEITB, Siva, Eye, Mayo, Speed Kills, Once Upon a Time, Ava Adore, Cupid de Locke, SOMA, BODIES, Crestfallen, I Of the Mourning, and Age of Innocence over the course of two shows, I wouldn't be fucking complaining.

Why do people go to a show that is going to be 2+ hours if all they want is 1979 and Bullet on repeat? The shows were good.

 
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Old 12-16-2008, 12:47 AM   #19
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--Acoustic songs- 10 songs, 20.4% of setlists
--Songs with extended jamming- 9 songs, 18.37% of setlists
--Heard on August tour- 20 songs, 40.82% of setlists
--Performed while Billy was dressed like a Bowie-esque prom queen- 1 song, 2.04%
--Co-written by James Iha- 2 songs, 4.08% of setlist
--Written when Kurt Cobain was alive- 13 songs, 26.53% of setlists
--Written when Monte lived with his parents- 49 songs, 100%
--Butch Vig produced studio version- 8 songs, 16.33% of setlists
--Flood produced studio version- 15 songs, 30.61% of setlists
--Roy Thomas Baker wrecked studio version- 3 songs, 6.21% of setlists
--Songs that are by Pink Floyd- 1 song, 2.04% of setlists
--Songs during which Billy was heckled- 49 songs, 100%
--Songs written before Netphoria existed- 23 songs, 46.93% of setlists
--Written when Billy had hair- 18 songs, 36.73% of setlists
--Written when Billy was wearing a dress- 5 songs, 10.2% of setlists
--Written when Billy was on drugs- 24 songs, 48.98% of setlists
--Songs that suck dick (even to the smallest extent)- 11 songs, 22.44% of setlists

 
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Old 12-16-2008, 12:50 AM   #20
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redbreegull you are awesome.

 
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Old 12-16-2008, 01:25 AM   #21
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statistic lie. even if set the controls was only one of the 51 songs played, its still an inordinate amount of the total set time.

 
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Old 12-16-2008, 01:26 AM   #22
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set the controls is awesome.

 
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Old 12-16-2008, 01:44 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
statistic lie. even if set the controls was only one of the 51 songs played, its still an inordinate amount of the total set time.
Someone give Dr. Obvious a fucking award for his research into statistical reliability.

 
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Old 12-16-2008, 03:20 AM   #24
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I said the same thing in the Cleveland thread immediately after that show, which was also before anyone knew the BS/WC setlists, since Cleveland was a "one-off" show, and yet already complaining that it didn't qualify for 20th Anniversary billing. Yet I think 13 or the 22 songs were old songs. LOL.

The Pumpkins can't please people because people will say and believe anything, despite the facts. 11/18 Chicago rant FTW. People are fickle and stupid.

 
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Old 12-16-2008, 06:29 AM   #25
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Quote:
The media frequently have no idea what they’re talking about. But then again, I suppose - at least around here - we already knew that.
I don't feel like counting the blog posts on hipstersunited.com and then making some statistics, but a lot of them are about how wrong the media is. And I'm tired of those. I got the point already. I'm not waiting for quotes from yet another review, followed by the same arguments about how they do play the hits, et cetera.

Anyway, carry on if you want to.
Just letting you know that I find it quite redundant.

 
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Old 12-16-2008, 08:13 AM   #26
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If they're gonna play with stats, why not realize that Gossamer and Set the Controls together take up 30+ mins easily. The time that people are there in the crowd waiting around for something familiar or some melody or something is crucial to crowd energy and reception. Figure out a % of the time of each show where people are standing/sitting around going WTF?

And surely new songs + newly played covers count as Zeitgeist era, just as Landslide counts as SD, Tranmission as Adore, Once in a Lifetime as Machina, etc.

 
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Old 12-16-2008, 12:51 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoshinobu's revenge View Post
If they're gonna play with stats, why not realize that Gossamer and Set the Controls together take up 30+ mins easily. The time that people are there in the crowd waiting around for something familiar or some melody or something is crucial to crowd energy and reception. Figure out a % of the time of each show where people are standing/sitting around going WTF?

And surely new songs + newly played covers count as Zeitgeist era, just as Landslide counts as SD, Tranmission as Adore, Once in a Lifetime as Machina, etc.
They don't play gossamer and set the controls back to back tho.

According to my live recording of the 11/21 chicago show:

Superchrist 6:26 followed with United States at 21:48
then at the end you have
heavy Metal Machine at 10:51, glasstheme at 1:50 and Set the Controls at 19:23 back to back.

Thats 60 minutes of Jams in one Black Sunshine show.

11/19 White crosses has the Gossamer at 16minutes followed by a short As Rome Burns then goes into whole Song of Silence > Lil Red Riding hood > March Hare > Suffer which is about 23minutes. Thats 40 minutes right there of unfamiliar music to the average fan. Then the I Am One pt 2 encore lasts about 14 minutes.

But I think thats what makes SP shows great and unique- they are fucking LONG and experimental at times. Adore tour he did like a 25 minute version of 'transmission' by joy division and it was fantastic. Maybe its more interesting if you arent up in the balcony, or if you are GA, but its great to watch them shred like that. No one does that anymore.

 
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Old 12-16-2008, 12:54 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carapatricia View Post
No one does that anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carapatricia View Post
No one does that anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carapatricia View Post
No one does that anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carapatricia View Post
No one does that anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carapatricia View Post
No one does that anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carapatricia View Post
No one does that anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carapatricia View Post
No one does that anymore.

 
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Old 12-16-2008, 12:54 PM   #29
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come on, really?

 
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Old 12-16-2008, 12:56 PM   #30
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whats your point

 
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