Gish turns 28

[Mals Marola]

Originally Posted by trev

* but reviews are mostly of albums.
* most music playback systems are more designed to play albums than any other type of compilation.
* if you go to a party and they ask you to put an album on, you aren't going to try and create your own comp mix on the spot, and you aren't likely to have a CDR of the mix in question with you.
* you can't as easily recommend other people listen to you custom comp mixes.
* albums are more official, so work better as presents, etc. than CDR comps

1) so it's about people writing about it? couldn't they have just done that via a Pisces review?
2) tbh i don't know what you mean by this one
3) if someone actually asks you to do this at a party, just put on Pisces? probably starting at Frail, but normal album order nonetheless!
4) you definitely can, considering most people use Spotify & shit these days, where it's just as easy to send a custom playlist as it is an album - but again, Pisces!
5) P i s c e s

as for the tracks that were included on next to nothing, or just patchy various artist compilations/soundtracks (Glynis, Drown) yeah i guess i can kinda see that, but i feel like now more than ever, provided they're online it's way less of a problem than it woulda been 15 or so years ago

[trev]

yeah i was talking about any non album tracks, so like you just said glynis, drown, etc. not specifically only songs on b-sides comps like starla.

but starla on pi vs starla on sd is a big difference when just "choosing an album" in any of those situations.

for media players, i was talking about how formats and players of those formats are mostly designed to play albums. physical formats like vinyl, cass, cd, hdcd, sacd, minidisc, are more suited to albums than custom fan made compilations.
even digital media is mostly geared to play albums - even itunes / spotify for example, it's still mostly grouped by album or release. there's the added functionality of custom user comp mixes, but artists still release mostly albums on those platforms.

[myosis]

since you're talking about formats, why are you criticizing an album from 91 for being too short when it was still the standard album length of the times it was produced? nobody in their right mind would put out an overbloated debut album that doesn't fit on a single LP.

[trev]

gish - 45:45
ten - 53:20
mr bungle - 73:19
temple of the dog - 54:59
orbital - 76:47

Originally Posted by myosis

nobody in their right mind would put out an overbloated debut album that doesn't fit on a single LP.

cool story bro

[Modern90's]

ten and temple fit on a single lp

[Modern90's]

and gish is pretty perfect trackwise how it is

im not sure what else would make sense on it

[FoolofaTook]

starla?

[myosis]

jesus, how much time did you waste to prove me wrong with orbital and mr bungle?
doesn't make me wrong though.

[myosis]

debut albums are your visit card and SP always had commercial ambitions.

[myosis]

ok trev just act like an idiot. mr bungle and orbital are proof that 45 minute albums weren't still the norm in early 90s. cool story bro. add arrogance to ignorance. fuck off.

[Funbags]

I like Gish, but it's definitely a stylistic trap. Gish 2 would have cemented them as a Soul Coughing kind of band.

[trev]

you mentioned "debut album" at first so i limited my replies to debut albums to show that putting more than 45mins on a debut in 1991 wasn't overbloated, wasn't something only for those out of their right minds, and that some can even still fit on an single LP if that's important - and obviously that was getting less important even by 1991.

now you are talking about "the norm" of 1991. i never said it was short in length for "the norm" of 1991, i said it was short compared to other sp albums. since when does doing the norm mean something is a better choice? and since when have sp done things only because it fits the norm?

but if you aren't only talking about just debut albums anymore, we can also add:

blood sugar sex magic - 73:55
screamadelica - 62:31
achtung baby - 55:27
leisure - 50:13
the pod - 76:40

i'm not seeing any huge reason why being in the year 1991 was the reason gish was limited to 45 mins.

[myosis]

i said it, if you read between the lines
1) CD format had only recently become dominant.
2) they were preparing to go major and they were, guess what, prudent, and label-pleasing. yes labels have their say in the final product you put out, even on caroline records.

yes, RHCP put out a long album a few months later that was considered single, and despite critics finding its length excessive, they are one of the popular bands that set the trend for pushing towards the far-limits of the CD (70+). a trend primarily pushed by GnR, and with pop music by MJ, and a trend that churned out many overbloated albums later on.
but if i eliminate the "debut album" parameter it's not to give you a reason to throw out more random examples out there that don't fit the criteria. having examples is not proof ad absurdio! that is just wack. i'm saying that even outside of debut albums, the standard 60-minute label-mandated album was still 2 years away mostly. vinyl had now definitely fallen out of the picture for everyone. times were changing fast back then, like in the 60's. see 1995 with double MCIS, which required some strong label convincing, and they eventually relented. but you'd probably like to think bc had the same level of influence pre-gish than post-SD.

all i was saying was that, yes, there was a time in the 90's when if your favorite major artist put out an album under 60 minutes, you'd be disappointed thinking it's too short, and probably their label too. but 1991 wasn't that time yet.

and nowadays some people say 30 minutes isn't an album, it's an EP. and wack things about their own concepts of proper album length.

[FoolofaTook]

You got something to say to that, Trev?

[topleybird]

You said "wack" twice

[trev]

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

You got something to say to that, Trev?

not really, not that hasn't already been said.

i think gish should have had 1 or 2 more tracks. it's really missing a shorter punchier song like slunk for a bit of variety.

[Mals Marola]

but it was their first album. like myosis said, back then especially it was crucial to not overstay their welcome on a debut album and quite frankly i don't think it needs anything

[Mals Marola]

i guess it's just par for the course to complain about Corgo's 90s output tho. even when he gets it completely right, people are gonna debate whether or not Starla shoulda been on Gish, Jerry on MCIS, LMGTWTY on Adore, etc

[myosis]

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

You got something to say to that, Trev?

quite frankly, i don't think that debating music history should be a fight, i just took offense at the snide way used to reply to my point.

i don't think i have much more to say either that can change anyone's mind.

[myosis]

Originally Posted by topleybird

You said "wack" twice

never been sure how to spell this and i remember someone laughing at me on AMSP back in the 90's for using it, but i know it's been in wide use at least somewhere however wack that is.
i'm pretty sure my english has improved since the 90's but not my use of the term "wack".

[topleybird]

Last time I went to a dinner party and took over the stereo with Gish, the host overturned the tureen of consommé on my head and sent me out the door with a boot to the buttocks

[Mals Marola]

sounds wack

[trev]

Originally Posted by Mals Marola

complain about Corgo's 90s output tho. even when he gets it completely right

first if i'm gonna complain about corgan's output, it's not from the 90's that's for sure lol

it's not a binary of good / bad, i didn't say gish wasn't good. but i don't think sp has released a perfect record, there's ways they all could have been improved.

i don't see why discussing that is a bad thing? i don't think it even counts as complaining.

[Modern90's]

what needs to be improved on sd?

[reprise85]

silverfuck should have been on gish, obviously

[trev]

sd is my fav sp album, but personally i would have put hello kitty kat on it, and taken off spaceboy. maybe change the tracklisting around the last half too, not just a straight swap cause silverfuck sounds great kicking in after a soft song or soft ending.



i think a non-stop start to finish loud song like hkk on the second half would be better though, and to have 1 less soft song on the second half.


maybe disarm, hkk, soma, geek, mayo, silverfuck, sweet sweet, luna,
or
disarm, soma, geek, mayo, hkk, sweet sweet, silverfuck, luna


something like that.

[MyKeyZ]

Originally Posted by trev

something like that.

This is a playlist I made that I quite enjoy. A much heavier Siamese Dream and it flows quite nicely...

SIAMESE NIGHTMARE
01 Cherub Rock
02 Quiet
03 Frail & Bedazzled
04 Today
05 Hummer
06 Pissant
07 Rocket
08 Hello Kitty Kat
09 Geek U.S.A.
10 Mayonaise
11 Starla
12 Blue
13 Soma
14 Plume
15 Silverfuck
16 Spaced

[Mals Marola]

Originally Posted by trev

first if i'm gonna complain about corgan's output, it's not from the 90's that's for sure lol

it's not a binary of good / bad, i didn't say gish wasn't good. but i don't think sp has released a perfect record, there's ways they all could have been improved.

i don't see why discussing that is a bad thing? i don't think it even counts as complaining.

no but people saying Starla should have been on Gish is just fuckin' bizarre to me

like of all their record Gish is probably the most sealed, it has exactly what it needs and ends exactly where it needs to. i can't imagine Starla being on that record without either killing the momentum or feeling like an addition too many. of course i'm completely with the hypotheticals & whatnot but this is just one that never particularly made sense to me

[trev]

Originally Posted by MyKeyZ

03 Frail & Bedazzled*
10 Mayonaise*

what do the asterisks mean?

[trev]

Originally Posted by Mals Marola

i can't imagine Starla being on that record without either killing the momentum or feeling like an addition to many.

i agree, there's also rhino and window paine that are similar sort of structured songs so another like that would have been too much.

not to mention it wasn't even written yet, if starla was to go on an album it would have been sd, not gish.