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Old 10-18-2016, 09:21 PM   #2911
redbreegull
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but honestly I think Assange probably wants Trump to win the election and fuck him.

 
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:34 PM   #2912
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He's a rapist? I do care if he's dead, because that means the government fucking killed him for spilling secrets he thought we should know. FUCK that.

 
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:40 PM   #2913
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Sweden wants Assange extradited to face charges of rape and sexual assault against 2 women

 
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:41 PM   #2914
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Yeah, he could be a rapist. He has said he would be willing to face questioning in Sweden if they promised not to extradite him to the U.S. for espionage, but they don't want to do that. It's pretty awful that those women aren't getting justice partly because the U.S. government's interest in nabbing him for espionage. But yeah, if he's a rapist, though what WikiLeaks is doing is good, he doesn't deserve any medals himself.

As for whether he supports Trump, he's said he doesn't like Trump or Clinton. It does seem like WikiLeaks is targeting Clinton far more than Trump, but at the same time, they don't do any hacking themselves, just publish things that whistleblowers and leakers hand to them. It could just be the case that they've been given more dirt on Clinton than Trump, but that this is not intentional on their part.

I mean, it's very likely that whoever is leaking this stuff to them (be it Russia or whoever else) has an agenda. But at the same time, when it comes to investigative journalism, the relevant issue isn't "who is the information coming from," but rather, "is the information true?" Sometimes investigative journalists have to accept information from unsavoury characters.

Last edited by Disco King : 10-18-2016 at 10:07 PM. Reason: Used 'whomever' incorrectly, wrote 'thinks' instead of 'things'

 
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:44 PM   #2915
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a good journalist also doesn't become part of the story

 
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:49 PM   #2916
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What more is there to leak on Trump? It's already obvious why he shouldn't be president. I think Hillary has a lot more she's hiding, for decades

 
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:51 PM   #2917
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if Assange has something seriously damaging on Clinton he was running out of time anyway... a Trump comeback would be a historical first at this point

 
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:57 PM   #2918
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btw poots you are also a statist, you just support different statist policies dumbass

 
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Old 10-18-2016, 11:02 PM   #2919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poots View Post
Listen to this douchebag statist saying how evil Assange is. CNN was telling viewers how many laws Wikileaks is breaking and that it's technically illegal to even read the leaked emails and people should let the media filter it for them or someshit. And don't forget everybody, it's the RUSSIANS doing it. RUSSIA. Did you get that? Pretty fucking chilling huh? Do you really want to read some commie hacked emails? You've got better things to do, like plant a patriot garden.
One argument that governments like to trot out whenever WikiLeaks publishes something is that they are exposing people to danger and risking lives.

Except WikiLeaks has asked the Pentagon numerous times to help them sort through the leaks and redact sensitive information that could lead to needless death, and they always refuse to do so.

WikiLeaks still tries to be sensitive about that stuff and will try not to, say, expose the identities of CIA assets gathering intel on extremist jihadist groups. To this date, I don't believe a single death has been attributed to information released by WikiLeaks, although both Republicans and Democrats keep on insisting that it's dangerous.

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You've yet to explain how voting for the same two parties is going to do the same.
For one, Clinton's Supreme Court picks will probably overturn Citizens United, which would help immensely in getting money out of politics.

 
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Old 10-18-2016, 11:05 PM   #2920
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poots View Post
You've yet to explain how voting for the same two parties is going to do the same.
I'm not laboring under the delusion that voting in a system specifically designed to disarm extreme change is ever going to bring extreme change

I have at least several times pointed to actions which could actually help to break the two party system, but you reject them because you don't actually want change. you want to whine.

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 12:02 AM   #2921
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How about me? I just want to run away!

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 04:58 AM   #2922
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In an election where Americans are faced with the two most unpopular candidates in modern times, I kind of have to wonder if it's really anything in particular about these candidates that is truly awful, or if it's just the electorate that's changed. Candidates have never been pure folks, but maybe the increase of the circulation of information on them through things like the internet and journalistic organizations that publish leaks has caused people to become disillusioned?

Maybe not in the case of Trump, who is clearly disliked because he has more blatantly reactionary and anti-intellectual rhetoric and polices than any modern candidate. But somebody like Clinton, it just seems interesting how she doesn't actually seem exceptionally different from most Democrats, yet people hate her. On some policies, she is further right than Obama, but on many others, further left. There isn't a huge gulf between them anyhow, yet Obama has a pretty good favourability rating right now, even if Clinton is loathed.

I think part of it is just that there has been a lot more scrutiny on Clinton due to her higher visibility, being a first lady and a cabinet member. On the other hand, Obama was a congressperson before running for president, so the only people paying much attention to him before his presidential bid would probably be those he represented.

Makes you wonder if Clinton would have a shot if the Republicans didn't nominate somebody so terrible. In retrospect, it feels like the polls would had been a lot different if they nominated Rubio or Paul or something. Maybe nominating Cruz or Bush would had been similar to nominating Trump, because of Cruz's unpopularity and connections people might draw between Bush and his brother. In fact, the DNC leaks show that Rubio was who the Clinton campaign was most afraid of, because they thought his youth might give him that Obama appeal.

I know match-ups during the primaries aren't very predictive of the general election, but those match-ups did have Sanders winning against pretty much any Republican, and people still seem to hold him at high esteem. Since he doesn't have the decades of documented dirt Clinton has that places suspicion on her, I wonder if this election would even had ever been a question if he were nominated. Trump has never led Clinton in the polls, but before the Billy Bush tape leak and sometime after the Democratic convention bump, he was starting to close the gap a bit. Maybe he wouldn't had even done that well if going up against Sanders.

Then again, maybe Sanders wouldn't do as well amongst general voters as with people who identify as on the left, because he describes himself as "socialist," a curse word for a lot of Americans. He's not even really that socialist, more what 50 years ago we would had just called a "liberal," but the spectrum has moved so far right over the past few decades that now even somebody like Sanders is seen as this radical.

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 09:46 AM   #2923
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I think there is a real populist type thing going on with the electorate where simply being part of the establishment is enough to warrant hatred among a block of voters

Obama tapped into that and it's gotten even stronger since him

I'm not really sure what exactly the cause of that is because it actually seems independent of the economic state

Last edited by Elphenor : 10-19-2016 at 09:51 AM.

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 09:49 AM   #2924
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Also Hillary is a woman

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 10:56 AM   #2925
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Intuitively I want to say that if the GOP had run Rubio for example, the race would be a lot closer but Clinton would also be receiving just enough support to give her an edge. I think the lack of enthusiasm for her (although it comes from many places) is partly based in the weakness of her opponent. If the other candidate were stronger, I think the majority coalition of liberal America would have reacted more strongly in favor of her.

but who knows, it's just a hunch. I also suspect Sanders wouldn't have done any better than her against anyone

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 03:14 PM   #2926
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-keeps defending Jill Stein

-is voting for Donald Trump


let it sink in

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 05:13 PM   #2927
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In regards to Bernie, even hardcore Republicans I know wanted to vote for him because of specific issues. I think he would have done pretty damn well, but my circle is kind of (extremely) hippyish

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 05:44 PM   #2928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphenor View Post
Also Hillary is a woman
Possibly. I mean, I can perfectly understand the reasons why liberals, progressives, leftists etc. wouldn't like Clinton (welfare reform, voting for legislation that reduces the ability of the poor to file for bankruptcy so that credit card companies can make more money off of them, hawkish foreign policy, support for TPPA, etc), but those don't seem to be the same reasons the general populace dislike Clinton. The general discourse that isn't coming from left-leaning circles seems to me to just be their perceptions about her character traits rather than any actual polices. Like, she "she seems shifty," or "she seems fake," "she's such an uptight stiff in her pantsuits," "she's too emotional because I saw her cry on TV once," or "like I dunno I just don't like that woman I don't trust her."

A part of it could just be a gendered prejudice against her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
Intuitively I want to say that if the GOP had run Rubio for example, the race would be a lot closer but Clinton would also be receiving just enough support to give her an edge. I think the lack of enthusiasm for her (although it comes from many places) is partly based in the weakness of her opponent. If the other candidate were stronger, I think the majority coalition of liberal America would have reacted more strongly in favor of her.

but who knows, it's just a hunch. I also suspect Sanders wouldn't have done any better than her against anyone
If anything, I would had thought that the weakness of her opponent would make her look better in comparison. But I could see some kind of weird psychological thing pushing it the other way. Like, since Trump is just so obviously an awful candidate, and his antics have drawn a lot of negative media attention, people might want to give the appearance that they are neutral thinkers by going "yeah but they're both bad though." But that's just conjecture, I won't take a strong position that this is actually what's happening.

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Because there's no way that a Stein voter (and I am, and will again in November) could actually be more afraid of Clinton than Trump. Except that Stein just explained it in the above video. If you're having trouble reconciling that fact with yourself, you might actually watch the video and take yourself out of whatever CNN/HuffPo bubble you've encased yourself in.
Stein didn't explain why people should be more afraid of Clinton than Trump. Her language in that video was very careful as to not make any statements about which candidate was worse than the other.

I think that was intentional. If she had to acknowledge that Trump is worse than Clinton, then the question of "what if you help him get elected" carries more force. And then she's up against the wall having to explain how she wouldn't help him get elected, even though it's just a fact of the system that Stein would be taking votes away from Clinton rather than Trump. When this fact is pointed out, the default is just to go to platitudes about voting one's conscious or not giving into fear, which are all well and good slogans, but don't have much to do with the material reality people face.

I'm not saying Stein should just drop out to help Clinton. It's her right to run for office. It's people's right to vote for her. But realistically speaking, no matter how you model it, she is a spoiler candidate, so it makes sense for people to think about that when voting. But of course she will avoid any acknowledgement of that because no candidate is going to give you reasons why you shouldn't vote for them.

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 05:57 PM   #2929
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I gotta laugh every time I get accused of being brainwashed by some liberally biased source I never read or watch. My political take is biased towards having gotten an education in political science, not Huffington Post.

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 05:58 PM   #2930
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I wonder if some game-theoretic modelling that takes into account preferences in the primary process and preferences in the general election could explain why both parties found it rational to nominate the candidates people seem to like the least.

P.S. also wondering how Poots squares posting a video that critiques Clinton's policies on immigration (the mass deportations and night raids on Hondurans seeking asylum) when his own posts have demonstrated opposition to more lenient immigration policies. Or how he squares voting for a candidate that supports BLM and wants reparations for slavery when Poots thinks systemic racism isn't real and black people should just get over it and talking about racism hurts white people's feelings because it makes them feel guilty and the real reason blacks struggle has nothing to do with discrimination or systemic issues, but rather black fathers being deadbeats (also maintains that there are no racial biases in policing or the criminal justice system). Or how he squares voting for the candidate who says that people have a right to affordable housing, universal healthcare, and has criticized welfare reform, when Poots thinks taxation is theft and that people don't have a right to economic security. Or how he...

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 06:00 PM   #2931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
I gotta laugh every time I get accused of being brainwashed by some liberally biased source I never read or watch. My political take is biased towards having gotten an education in political science, not Huffington Post.
yeah but higher education has a liberal PC agenda and indoctrinate their students

same with scientists, they are biased by leftism

pretty much the reason everyone smarter than me is on the left of me is a huge organized brainwashing psyop

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 06:05 PM   #2932
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"fuck the government, the state is an invalid institution with no legitimacy and can't tell me what to do"

"btw government if you're listening pls secure the border and exercise your authority over the state so that people can't freely move into it i mean open borders would pretty much mean stateless societies and that's awful"

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 06:08 PM   #2933
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"The state is illegitimate and is pretty much just a huge protection racket and the police are just their enforcers so we all need guns in order to protect ourselves from them."

"That black kid that got shot by the police clearly had it coming. If he just did what he was told the police wouldn't had had to kill him. Check his Facebook, he posed with guns in some of his photos, and that shows that he's no good.

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 06:08 PM   #2934
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"You filthy statists."

"I'm voting for Jill Stein."

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 07:29 PM   #2935
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Would a vote for Stein be the absolute best option for an intellectually dishonest Trump supporter caught in the throes of denial?

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 07:44 PM   #2936
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seven minutes of Eminem taking a piss on Donald Trump


 
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Old 10-19-2016, 07:50 PM   #2937
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"Stegosaurus. Chuck Norris with a thesaurus."

Seemed like as good a place as any to bail the fuck out of that listening experience.

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 08:01 PM   #2938
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I listened to the whole thing and still don't quite understand what Eminem thinks of Trump.

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 08:01 PM   #2939
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I caught something about banning condoms...?

 
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Old 10-19-2016, 08:20 PM   #2940
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Damn it American Horror Story is on tonight. Although the debate is also an American Horror story.....which one do I watch??

 
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