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Old 02-27-2014, 09:05 PM   #31
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Order 66 View Post
you can take out a terrorist network and still some kid will still strap a bomb to his vest and walk to gaza... but the cycle is slightly less likely to repiclate itself as quickly because economic motivators >> zealotry
your last point is correct, and it is why the point before it is incorrect. Being willing to strap a bomb to your chest is an ultimate act of complete political, social, and economic helplessness. Religion becomes the justification, but it's really about human beings having no control over their lives, no clout to change things around them, no prospects of economic mobility, and no respect or recognition from the world. Add in the factor of US soldiers shooting up your compadres all the time, and you have only increased how quickly people will want to sign up.

The mitigating factor here is that the US has ostensibly been surprisingly adept at taking apart the top levels of leadership of prominent terror cells. Doesn't decrease how many wannabes will blow up cafes in Baghdad, but it decreases the likelihood of big Islamist attacks in western countries because that shit takes a lot of planning and well-educated, skilled people.

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:13 PM   #33
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but they bombed us first

no but i agree, unless it's terrorist networks we're having to ******* with that. al queada in particular become so diluted as a name it doesn't really mean anything

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:16 PM   #34
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btw i understand there are other "terrorists" out there other than those with brown skin in the desert

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:21 PM   #35
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like theres the other side of the coin like tim mcveigh who wasn't really repressed or anything he just wanted to kill a bunch of people because

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:21 PM   #36
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it just gets frustrating because you get the media automatically calling any type of violent attack terrorism. a guy shooting up a school with no endgame in mind because he is mentally sick is not an act of terrorism

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:22 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Order 66 View Post
like theres the other side of the coin like tim mcveigh who wasn't really repressed or anything he just wanted to kill a bunch of people because
of Waco

that was domestic terrorism, to him he was declaring war on the federal government

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:26 PM   #38
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he was raised Catholic so I'm calling shenanigans on no repression


but in seriousness, I don't actually know that much about his motives but perusing a few articles reveals he cites revenge for Waco (I already knew this) and US attacks on foreign countries as his justification. In the strictest sense of the word, I'm not sure an act of revenge is really terrorism unless there is a strategic goal defined.

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:28 PM   #39
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I mean I guess his acts have an implicit goal in how he wanted the Feds to react and how he wanted people to view the Federal government, but its definitely a lot more loosey goosey than bin Laden, who told us exactly what he wanted.

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:29 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Trotskilicious View Post
of Waco

that was domestic terrorism, to him he was declaring war on the federal government


yeah.. and that's why i'd inch that above "organized crime" in atrocities .. lot of time its just zealotry not just drones. though US imperialism is a huge role i know. but that doesn't abrogate that there's people with the mindset innocents should die because of some dumb thing (edit: well waco was an atrocity, it wasn't dumb. but i'm decrying 'eye for an eye' here

speaking of.. i can't believe youtube doesn't have any of the early 2000 "if you do drugs you're a terrorist" PSAs. that was the best thing to come out of the bush admin

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:32 PM   #41
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they're both pretty cool.

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:32 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
I might ask you the same question because that literally is what terrorism is. The use of fear by way of violence to achieve a political goal.
I think I'm just having problems with your gang example. Gangs are motivated by personal interests like money or power, not some actual political change in society like terrorists are. Gangs can become terrorist organizations, but your example is of common crime I think.

I mean, is there not a clear difference here? Also your gang against gang example would be more comparable to state attacking state which would be just aggressive war?

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:40 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Order 66 View Post
speaking of.. i can't believe youtube doesn't have any of the early 2000 "if you do drugs you're a terrorist" PSAs. that was the best thing to come out of the bush admin
i remember watching the Pirate Bowl in a bar in san antonio when one of those came on, the booing was deafening.

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:54 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by bignothing View Post
I think I'm just having problems with your gang example. Gangs are motivated by personal interests like money or power, not some actual political change in society like terrorists are. Gangs can become terrorist organizations, but your example is of common crime I think.

I mean, is there not a clear difference here? Also your gang against gang example would be more comparable to state attacking state which would be just aggressive war?
I don't agree with the distinctions you are making. As Catherine Wheel pointed out when I aimed too narrowly trying to figure out what he was saying before, "politics" is not just governments and international relations. Politics is just the interaction and power relations of human beings, really, at least according to Aristotle. All our actions are political. You are being a little reductive in saying that gangs are motivated by "personal interests," as if they do not foster the same fundamental ideas of community, cause, ideology, ingroup/outgroup, blah blah that any other type of organization does. You might think gangs are terrible and I wouldn't argue, but they seek to serve the same social purposes as any other example of humans organizing themselves into groups. There is no such thing as a "terrorist organization," just an organization that uses terrorism to get what it wants. If you are killing just to kill, you are not a terrorist. And states can use terrorism too. It's just a tactic. Like guerilla warfare, assassinations, missile strikes, espionage.

It might seem small to you compared to get your fucking troops out of my country, but shooting a dude up to get his bros to stop selling on your corner is still a political goal. It involves power and money.

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:04 PM   #45
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Oh okay we've fallen into that black hole of trying to define terrorism. You have a degree in Political Science, right? Surely you've studied the difference between terrorism x guerilla warfare x freedom fighters etc. Also how by definition States can't use terrorism. I was focusing on these differences I suppose.

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:05 PM   #46
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Your idea of the concept of politics is more broad and all-encompassing than what bignothing and I had in mind.

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:19 PM   #47
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Oh okay we've fallen into that black hole of trying to define terrorism. You have a degree in Political Science, right? Surely you've studied the difference between terrorism x guerilla warfare x freedom fighters etc. Also how by definition States can't use terrorism. I was focusing on these differences I suppose.
I don't have a degree in political science, I was one class short. But terrorism is a tactic, you aren't going to find anyone who seriously studies terrorism and thinks it is like an ideology or a type of organization. That shit all came from Bush and the knuckle dragging media. I'm not sure where you are getting that states can't use terrorism. Remember how the US dropped nuclear bombs on Japanese cities to coerce the military into surrendering?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine Wheel View Post
Your idea of the concept of politics is more broad and all-encompassing than what bignothing and I had in mind.
well tbh I still don't know how you are defining your terms, you have been incredibly vague and opaque in what you mean by "terrorism" and "organized crime"

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:24 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Catherine Wheel View Post
Your idea of the concept of politics is more broad and all-encompassing than what bignothing and I had in mind.
I mean at first I thought you meant terrorism to mean terrorism to affect national and international politics, but then you refuted me when I used political to refer to only the workings of large organizations of people. Then I stepped back and offered that I really agreed with you and had been confused, but I do usually think of political as being much more broad than just NGOs and states, but then you refute that too and say I am looking at more widely than you

so I am totally lost

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:26 PM   #49
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Organized crime is motivated by finance. They use fear and intimidation to achieve their goal which is financial. Terrorists groups are motivated by political upheaval. They use fear and intimidation to achieve their goal of political change.

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:32 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Catherine Wheel View Post
Organized crime is motivated by finance. They use fear and intimidation to achieve their goal which is financial. Terrorists groups are motivated by political upheaval. They use fear and intimidation to achieve their goal of political change.
you fail to recognize the very, very extreme economic factors underneath the surface of why terrorists want political upheaval. This is 2014, can't we recognize that economics is pretty much at the bottom of everything?

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:41 PM   #51
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The terrorism going on right now in Africa is motivated by religion.

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:42 PM   #52
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honestly I am tired tonight and don't want to debate this anymore until tomorrow (although we should all pat ourselves on the back for having a debate without cursing at each other or being terrible), but I do think that most terrorism, like most political violence in general (by this I just mean violence which seeks to change power structures) has a big old root in money.

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:46 PM   #53
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The terrorism going on right now in Africa is motivated by religion because the terrorists recognize that religious leaders have political power.
uuuuuurrrrrg can't not respond

I am going to assume you are talking about Nigeria and surrounding areas? That's what's been in the news I guess recently. I would argue (and so would some IR guys), that just because what you see on the surface is Islam vs. Christianity, that does not mean religion is the root cause. Religion and ethnicity are often the fault lines along which populations split in times of extreme economic turmoil.

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 11:00 PM   #54
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a confederacy of dunces

 
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Old 02-27-2014, 11:12 PM   #55
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redbreegull is a scrawny ol' windbag.

 
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:07 AM   #56
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I'm working on beefing up

 
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:18 AM   #57
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oh great. he is sleep-posting again.

 
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Old 02-28-2014, 01:27 AM   #58
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Old 03-01-2014, 07:03 PM   #59
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What if I told you all that capitalism is organized crime?

 
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