Zwan/Zeitgeist Streaming

[NovaFritz]

I know this is often talked about in passing on here. But what are the best logics for these albums not being available? I think Billy has also discussed it, but I am not sure how honest he is. I can see him holding back Zwan so that the other members don't get any residuals, if that is the issue. Billy is a spiteful man. For Zeitgeist, though, I really don't understand. I don't think he is any more embarrassed by it than Oceania (which he hasn't banned out of spite to ex-members, btw), and he actually still plays with most of the members from that time. It would be incredibly cheap for a record label to make that available, it would cost them next to nothing. They put all kinds of crap online in the hope it gets a few hundred or thousand streams. Then there is the whole Billy wants to punish the labels/audience for not appreciating his music of the period. But we also don't appreciate the newer music. So why is that available? Someone help me make sense of this.

[TheAlter]

Fuck Zeitgeist, Zwan's MSOTS is the only true post-2000 SP. Female bass player, too.

[TheAlter]

To answer your question,it's hard to see why he's not making those records available. He pretty much cuts ties with everyone sooner or later. It could be the label, it could the former band members, it could be he wants to reboot the whole project, a Zeitgeist super-duper 5 vinyl premium edition in penis pink, the scarsity pronciple, whatever, you name it.

[Spaceboy88]

I think it's a mix of a few things:

1) Contractual issues between the band & Reprise *This is most likely given that even "American Gothic" isn't streaming and they seem to own the rights to that as well.

2) Billy being a little bitch and not liking that a few people on Netphoria shit all over Zeitgeist and Zwan so isn't in any rush to get the issues sorted out

3) A bit of spite to prevent the ex-members from getting the pittance in streaming royalties it would generate

At the end of the day, Billy's only hurting himself. While I personally love MSotS and American Gothic, I can always fire up iTunes and listen to them if I want, but this "new generation of Pumpkins fans" they love to showcase on Instagram is missing out on all this music and if it's not streaming, to them it doesn't exist.

[Joey Goldberg]

i've always found it a bit odd End is the Beginning isn't on Spotify etc as well (at least not in US)

[topleybird]

Uhhhhh, don't know what you're talking about, mate



Friend of mine got a review copy of this album for his college newspaper and, in an act of extraordinary kindness, gave it to me. Nary a stinker in the bunch!

[Forgotten Child]

He usually answers it's because fans didn't like them + TFE. I've my reasons to believe he's just being sarcastic. There was this time on Instagram that he replied that to be honest it wasn't up to him.

Coincidentally those 3 albums (+American Gothic) were released by Reprise... It must be due to a contractual agreement.

[Joey Goldberg]

this is the part of the program i'd like to invite Run 2 Pee into the program to call you all junior scientists and/or detectives

because i get a good chuckle when he does that

[NovaFritz]

The Reprise link is interesting, and now I see it includes all three "bands." What sort of contractual language would prevent either the label or Billy from making any money on these records in the streaming era? That part doesn't make any sense to me. Reprise would earn thousands of dollars a year if they streamed these.

[NovaFritz]

Just to clarify, I am talking like $1000-$3000, not more.

[Spaceboy88]

Originally Posted by Joey Goldberg

i've always found it a bit odd End is the Beginning isn't on Spotify etc as well (at least not in US)

Warner owns that song as part of the Batman & Robin soundtrack. Unfortunately, labels are often too lazy to deal with creating streaming agreements for soundtrack compilations like that where there are so many different rights holders.

[Spaceboy88]

Originally Posted by NovaFritz

The Reprise link is interesting, and now I see it includes all three "bands." What sort of contractual language would prevent either the label or Billy from making any money on these records in the streaming era? That part doesn't make any sense to me. Reprise would earn thousands of dollars a year if they streamed these.

Reprise is a wholly-owned subsidy of Warner. A lot of Reprise staff was laid off in 2011 and it's most likely an issue where Billy burned bridges by keeping those records off streaming when he was fighting with Warner years ago. Now they've probably just moved on and don't think it's worth the pittance they'd earn in streaming revenue to deal with Billy. That last part is just speculation, but the most likely scenario. There's so many more Reprise-owned albums that they probably focus on that do so much better every year than the entire SP/Zwan/BC albums would do combined.

[Forgotten Child]

And as far as I remember, Billy now "owns the music" but not "the recordings". If that makes any sense...

[Spaceboy88]

Originally Posted by Forgotten Child

And as far as I remember, Billy now "owns the music" but not "the recordings". If that makes any sense...

Correct. He owns the publishing, so he can go re-record those songs and put them out any way he sees fit. But the existing album versions of those songs belong to Warner, so he'd have to work with them to release them (and likely fund a big portion of those releases himself or make it worth their while) since none of those albums have people outside of the superfan community knocking down doors to listen to.

[themadcaplaughs]

Originally Posted by Spaceboy88

Correct. He owns the publishing, so he can go re-record those songs and put them out any way he sees fit. But the existing album versions of those songs belong to Warner, so he'd have to work with them to release them (and likely fund a big portion of those releases himself or make it worth their while) since none of those albums have people outside of the superfan community knocking down doors to listen to.

He's said that the masters for all of the WB/Reprise albums (Zwan, TFE, and Zeitgeist) reverted back to him in 2014, so he owns the publishing and masters on all those songs. This is why he'll be able to have Sumerian reissue them (at least, the last I heard that was the plan). Why he's keeping them off streaming now, I have absolutely no idea.

[Joey Goldberg]

really hope Reprise herself shows up soon to clear this up once & for all, really getting ticked I can't blast "Honestly" for my friends & family at dinner parties w/o reaching for the walkman!

[Joey Goldberg]

anyway at the end of the day, when all's said & done, & the sun is literally setting for the moon to literally rise

it all seems like new industry vs old industry pobs, especially w/ soundtrack shit

but that, my friends, is an opinion held by just 1 man. & that's all it is.

[NovaFritz]

Billy Corgan, I declare myself, declare myself, of faaaaaaiiiiiith.
I would stream Zwan on Youtube until the ads get too annoying to skip through. Please put them online, it has already been 8 years since you got the rights.

[Spaceboy88]

Originally Posted by themadcaplaughs

He's said that the masters for all of the WB/Reprise albums (Zwan, TFE, and Zeitgeist) reverted back to him in 2014, so he owns the publishing and masters on all those songs. This is why he'll be able to have Sumerian reissue them (at least, the last I heard that was the plan). Why he's keeping them off streaming now, I have absolutely no idea.

Oh nice, I didn't know he had the masters revert to him.

If they're not on streaming and he owns the masters then he's likely being a bitch and not putting them on due to "fan backlash."

Or he's delusional and thinking that the market will be dying for these releases so much for his Sumerian vinyl reissues that he's going to make more money by building up demand.

[Forgotten Child]

[NovaFritz]

Him being unhappy with the mix makes more sense than it getting a bad reception. Everything he has released since then has also gotten a bad reception.

Sounds like he is just very bitter about the 2003-2008 period of his life. Irrationally bitter about it. This was a period when at least the song-writing was still OK, if not the mixes and instrumentation choices.

[Spaceboy88]

"It'll be back up *soon enough."

*Soon enough = by 2041, once Machina reissue, Chicago songs, MCIS 2, and the Christmas album are released.

[Spaceboy88]

Originally Posted by NovaFritz

Him being unhappy with the mix makes more sense than it getting a bad reception.

I would agree with this if he hadn't said publicly in the past that he took them down to punish Warner Bros., and that he removed them because the fans crapped all over them.

Billy is the king of changing the narrative to when it suits him.

[themadcaplaughs]

Originally Posted by Spaceboy88

Oh nice, I didn't know he had the masters revert to him.

If they're not on streaming and he owns the masters then he's likely being a bitch and not putting them on due to "fan backlash."

Or he's delusional and thinking that the market will be dying for these releases so much for his Sumerian vinyl reissues that he's going to make more money by building up demand.

Yeah, it was a surprisingly forward thinking move on his part to get masters back for a record contract that was probably signed in the early 2000s.

I remember at one of those pre-show Q&As he did (I want to say back on the Manson tour), someone asked him about it right around the time Zeitgeist disappeared from streaming and iTunes. He definitely said at the time it was to punish the record company, and it was not until later that he started this "the fans weren't ready for it" shit. All I can think is that perhaps WB/Reprise still gets some sort of (very minimal) cut of streaming/downloads for those records even if the rights reverted back to Corgan.

TL : DR: I doubt Corgan even keeps his motives and grudges straight. Whatever the reason initially was for pulling those albums, he probably could not coherently voice that reason today. As others have pointed out, it seems like a particularly odd stance for someone to take who talks about how "forward thinking" those albums were, and who constantly talks about how he wants fans (particularly newer ones) to appreciate the entirety of his work.

[Joey Goldberg]

people need to stop treating ZG like it's fucking Death Magnetic or something - the mixing/mastering ain't that bad and shit, at least we hear Jimmy loud & clear!

[Forgotten Child]

And Billy's guitar loud and clear. And Billy's voice loud and clear. And Billy's bvs loud and clear.

Everything is loud and clear. Brickwalled.

[Joey Goldberg]

hurts


so





GOOD

[NovaFritz]

Originally Posted by Forgotten Child

And Billy's guitar loud and clear. And Billy's voice loud and clear. And Billy's bvs loud and clear.

Everything is loud and clear. Brickwalled.

I don't think mixing could save this album though. The problems are also in the recording production and the instrumental choices (billy chorus). You could drop parts out and move the mix around but it will always sound like Zeitgeist, as that recent dropped vox mix showed.

[topleybird]

Originally Posted by Spaceboy88

Warner owns that song as part of the Batman & Robin soundtrack. Unfortunately, labels are often too lazy to deal with creating streaming agreements for soundtrack compilations like that where there are so many different rights holders.

In this case, though, the soundtrack is on Spotify (officially, I think?). But the two Pumpkins songs are grayed out for me, meaning they're not available in my country (the US), but they are available somewhere. You seem to know a lot about this kind of shit (I'm being sincere here); do you know what could be going on there? I'm really curious.

There's some clunky tool out there for figuring out what countries can play a specific song on Spotify, but I had a devil of a time finding and using it on a different occasion, so, if anyone feels like punishing themselves to determine that it's, like, Djibouti alone that can play those tracks, be my guest

[Spaceboy88]

Originally Posted by topleybird

In this case, though, the soundtrack is on Spotify (officially, I think?). But the two Pumpkins songs are grayed out for me, meaning they're not available in my country (the US), but they are available somewhere. You seem to know a lot about this kind of shit (I'm being sincere here); do you know what could be going on there? I'm really curious.

There's some clunky tool out there for figuring out what countries can play a specific song on Spotify, but I had a devil of a time finding and using it on a different occasion, so, if anyone feels like punishing themselves to determine that it's, like, Djibouti alone that can play those tracks, be my guest

Spotify just replaces those songs with the versions that are available for streaming from other releases. You can tell because you'll play the song from the album and you'll see the cover art from it's streaming release.

Since TEitBitE is only found on Batman & Robin, it's not able to be replaced with an existing version.

In the US at least, Revolution (R.E.M.), Gotham City (R. Kelly), The Bug (Soul Coughing) and TBitEitB (SP) are all unavailable as no versions of those songs w/streaming rights here exist.