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Old 04-28-2018, 08:59 PM   #61
reprise85
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fair enough

 
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:30 PM   #62
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Well, as someone who has read and loved the books, Lynch outright said those are Frost’s stories, that’s it.
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I'd like to talk about how your books fall into the "Twin Peaks" canon. David obviously wasn't involved in either of them, but did you have any discussions with him about what subjects you would — and perhaps could — cover? Did he just say, "Do whatever you want?"

It was a clear division of labor. I certainly didn't want the first book to give away anything that was pertinent to enjoying the series. That's why the two-book structure was gonna work. We gave each other creative license to do whatever we wanted: him with directing and me with writing the books.

You were the showrunner of the original "Twin Peaks," and you've arguably had more influence over this franchise than anyone. But should David's non-participation affect how fans approach the books? There's obviously some room for debate on this, but what are your thoughts? Should we consider the books an equal part of "Twin Peaks" universe?

Look, they are to me. [laughs] Lynch-Frost Productions did the series, but I wasn't involved with "Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me" [Lynch's critically panned 1992 film prequel], and frankly, David wasn't that involved with most of season 1 — he was off making [his 1990 film] "Wild at Heart." I think the analogy I would use is, "This is like the Beatles' "White Album." There are Paul songs; there are John songs; there are Beatles songs." But they're all ultimately on the album. That's how people should think about it.
Salon – The last word on “Twin Peaks” by David Lynch’s co-creator Mark Frost

 
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:58 PM   #63
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https://res.cloudinary.com/jerrick/i...flzlgdgudc01jy

 
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Old 04-28-2018, 10:33 PM   #64
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Why is Fuzzy so dumb?

I mean, I know why, but why?

 
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Old 04-28-2018, 10:34 PM   #65
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He's so dumb, it's disturbing.

 
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Old 04-28-2018, 10:43 PM   #66
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It creates a dilemma between embarking on futile attempts to educate him, and allowing his idiocy to go on unchallenged

I feel like arguing with him just makes me stupider. Like, it's probably only dulling our argumentative and logical faculties to have as a chief interlocutor somebody of his level of rhetorical sophistication.

 
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Old 04-28-2018, 11:18 PM   #67
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you guys honestly cannot stop yourselves from doing this ad infinitum, can't you?

 
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Old 04-28-2018, 11:32 PM   #68
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It creates a dilemma between embarking on futile attempts to educate him, and allowing his idiocy to go on unchallenged

I feel like arguing with him just makes me stupider. Like, it's probably only dulling our argumentative and logical faculties to have as a chief interlocutor somebody of his level of rhetorical sophistication.
some of it is at least subconsciously purposeful and not out of pure stupidity, I think. Anti-intellectuals love making inane and fallacious arguments because they know their opponents feel obligated to follow a set of rules regarding logic and truth. They delight in frustrating their betters by refusing to argue in a way that makes sense or is productive...

it's also a tendency of those with fascistic leanings

 
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Old 04-28-2018, 11:37 PM   #69
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It's a bit like sparring for an upcoming MMA bout with Sealo.

 
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Old 04-28-2018, 11:39 PM   #70
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the kindness regime would like fuzzy to submit to the F-Scale Test

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 04:41 PM   #71
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psychology is a science based on evidence. you can't just say hey this thing seems cool pay attention to me and give me money! shit doesn't work like that, never has and never will. because it's a science and you need to follow the scientific method to come to a conclusion, not come to a conclusion and then try to reverse engineer the facts with whatever bullshit sounds good to you.
This simply wasn't the case in the 50's. There was a lot of assumptions being made, but nothing was based on science or fact. The act of the lobotomy was barbaric. There was no evidence that people would enjoy a higher quality of life after getting them. And while you mention that they still use electroshock therapy, it was a much different procedure in those days. If you do some research you can read about how crippling it was for the patients.

L Ron Hubbard was actually ahead of his time in a lot of ways. Dianetics shares a lot in common with what would later be come to be known as Cognetive Behavioral Therapy. Hubbard pioneered that in a lot of ways.

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i'm not an expert on auditing but it is a strange form of psychotherapy, and it may help people if it wasn't attached to the CoS. But it is, and it's a scam because people are blackmailed to keep giving money to the CoS
No arguments here. I'm certainly not trying to justify the ways in how Scientology is bullshit... I'm simply talking about Dianetics as Hubbards answer to the psychology industry of his time.

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however, it was barbaric back then because it wasn't perfected, and it did a lot of harm to people, and human rights violations were rampant in all forms of medicine at that time. but again it was in its infancy, and that doesn't excuse it being barbaric but it does explain it.
That's precisely the point. None of these operations were done on the basis of scientific fact or evidence that it helps. They were just cashing in at the expense of the patients. It was "hey, this is our best guess on how to help", really no different than Hubbard and his techniques. Only difference is Hubbard wouldn't leave you a drooling fool if you tried his teachings.

It's easy to look at Hubbards foray into psychology as a malicious venture, but you have to consider how different things were when he released that book. That's a huge thing people overlook when considering his legacy.

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 04:46 PM   #72
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many therapies can help and afaik it's basically a talk therapy. but scientology is only a tiny bit about the actual therapy. and L Ron created the religion, not just the therapy part of it.
There's many arcs to Hubbards career path. I'm certainly not here to defend the antics that he displayed later in his life.

Essentially what happened was that he was pissed off that the medical industry was ignoring his work and he felt that it wasn't getting the attention that it deserved, so starting a religion was a way to really put a focus and benefit from what he thought was groundbreaking therapy.

Obviously he then made some shit up for his religion to make it more "religiony" and that's not ethical. He's obviously flawed, but still a compelling and intriguing figure nonetheless.

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 04:51 PM   #73
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they are not separable. there's no such thing as patient-auditor privilege and what is disclosed is used against people later. yes the process of disclosing things that are bothering you can help you. that's called catharsis.
They are separable. Scientology came along much later. The process of auditing with the E-meter was something that he taught people to do on there own, and they could in turn do their own auditing and so on and so forth. When it caught on, there was really no way for Hubbard to even profit from it because people would use the practice apart from him.

It was only once the religion started that they realized they could hold the therapy content over peoples heads.

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 04:55 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
He's so dumb, it's disturbing.
Did you feel better about yourself after this incredibly insulting display?

A little tip from me, it's better to keep feelings like that that you have about people to yourself. Sometimes I'll be out and about and I'll come across people and be thinking to myself "god, is that person ever fucking stupid" but I never actually make a point of starting a display in an attempt to make them feel bad. It's a futile effort, my friend.

I hope you gain more self esteem in the future in order to avoid these insulting outbursts.

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 04:59 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
some of it is at least subconsciously purposeful and not out of pure stupidity, I think. Anti-intellectuals love making inane and fallacious arguments because they know their opponents feel obligated to follow a set of rules regarding logic and truth. They delight in frustrating their betters by refusing to argue in a way that makes sense or is productive...

it's also a tendency of those with fascistic leanings
You are just a narrow minded person. You're what the truther community would refer to as a sheep. You worship the major institutions and you never dare question anything regarding them and anyone who does you target with ridicule. You're doing the dirty work of these institutions and you're doing it by their design, that's the ironic thing.

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:02 PM   #76
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You are just a narrow minded person. You're what the truther community would refer to as a sheep. You worship the major institutions and you never dare question anything regarding them and anyone who does you target with ridicule. You're doing the dirty work of these institutions and you're doing it by their design, that's the ironic thing.
fuck you you fucking racist sexist piece of shit. burn in hell

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:17 PM   #77
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They are separable. Scientology came along much later. The process of auditing with the E-meter was something that he taught people to do on there own, and they could in turn do their own auditing and so on and so forth. When it caught on, there was really no way for Hubbard to even profit from it because people would use the practice apart from him.

It was only once the religion started that they realized they could hold the therapy content over peoples heads.
you have a source for this?

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:22 PM   #78
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Yeah, it's detailed in the book Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood, and the Prison of Belief by Lawrence Wright. He's a Pulitzer surprise winner, so I reckon his word is legit. It's actually quite a great book, I'd highly recommend checking it out (even though I'm only halfway through it lol).

They also talk about it in the HBO documentary of the same name (Going Clear), which is also fantastic and a must-see.

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:24 PM   #79
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Reprise, I just checked for you and they have the documentary on Youtube. If you haven't seen it before, I think you'll really enjoy it


 
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:29 PM   #80
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The documentary film kinda bungles the story though. They act as if Dianetics was written to be a religion, but the religion didn't come along until much later once the dianetics therapy had lost steam.

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:31 PM   #81
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This simply wasn't the case in the 50's. There was a lot of assumptions being made, but nothing was based on science or fact. The act of the lobotomy was barbaric. There was no evidence that people would enjoy a higher quality of life after getting them. And while you mention that they still use electroshock therapy, it was a much different procedure in those days. If you do some research you can read about how crippling it was for the patients.

L Ron Hubbard was actually ahead of his time in a lot of ways. Dianetics shares a lot in common with what would later be come to be known as Cognetive Behavioral Therapy. Hubbard pioneered that in a lot of ways.
This isn't true, and it wasn't the case in the 50's. There just wasn't as much known. That goes for every other medical field as well. Before the stethoscope, doctors literally put their head on the patient's chest to hear the heart. Then they could use a stethoscope to help diagnosis. Now we have EKGs that monitor it in real time, electronic imaging to project the image of the heart and how full it is, etc. Before psych meds, they tried physical methods. Then they improved the physical methods and the psych meds. Psych meds mostly won out, but some physical means are still used. There were some doctors who were more gung-ho about lobotomies etc and some of them no doubt were sadists or psychopaths.

There is a lot about the history of psychology and especially clinical psychology that you are discounting with this argument, but your basic reasoning flaw is hindsight bias. OF COURSE lobotomies look barbaric; but at the time, if the choice was lobotomy or 24/7 restraints for the rest of someone's life, you might see how it could be better for the patient and the hospital to try desperate measures. This was what lobotomies were supposed to be for - last resort patients. This isn't how they were used all the time, but it wasn't an epidemic of lobotomies, either.

ECT is the same story except not as extreme. ECT works for a lot of people, and it worked a lot back then. Especially before modern antidepressants, ECT was a miracle for many people especially those with major depression with psychotic features.

So your second logical flaw is comparing apples to oranges; no one who was sick enough to be eligible for a lobotomy or ECT would have been healthy enough to greatly improve by talk therapy in general, and those who could improve from that kind of talk therapy were not the kind of people who needed lobotomies or ECT.

Quote:
It's easy to look at Hubbards foray into psychology as a malicious venture, but you have to consider how different things were when he released that book. That's a huge thing people overlook when considering his legacy.
I have learned nothing about Hubbard that makes me think he wanted to help others, and his e-meter bullshit is psychotherapy in disguise, with someone who isn't trained. Talking to someone about your problems can help you feel better. If e-meter therapy worked for somebody, it is because of the merits of talking to others and the big-ass placebo hit one would get for spending 10,000 a week on therapy.

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:33 PM   #82
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I've seen going clear and it's about how fucked up Scientology is. I can't watch your link because it's blocked in the USA but I do not remember it being kind to LRH. It is much more brutal to the people still alive who are in leadership positions though. Who of course deserve it.

Gotta congratulate you on having a semi-reasonable argument on this issue btw

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:59 PM   #83
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This isn't true, and it wasn't the case in the 50's. There just wasn't as much known. That goes for every other medical field as well. Before the stethoscope, doctors literally put their head on the patient's chest to hear the heart. Then they could use a stethoscope to help diagnosis. Now we have EKGs that monitor it in real time, electronic imaging to project the image of the heart and how full it is, etc. Before psych meds, they tried physical methods. Then they improved the physical methods and the psych meds. Psych meds mostly won out, but some physical means are still used. There were some doctors who were more gung-ho about lobotomies etc and some of them no doubt were sadists or psychopaths.

There is a lot about the history of psychology and especially clinical psychology that you are discounting with this argument, but your basic reasoning flaw is hindsight bias. OF COURSE lobotomies look barbaric; but at the time, if the choice was lobotomy or 24/7 restraints for the rest of someone's life, you might see how it could be better for the patient and the hospital to try desperate measures. This was what lobotomies were supposed to be for - last resort patients. This isn't how they were used all the time, but it wasn't an epidemic of lobotomies, either.

ECT is the same story except not as extreme. ECT works for a lot of people, and it worked a lot back then. Especially before modern antidepressants, ECT was a miracle for many people especially those with major depression with psychotic features.

So your second logical flaw is comparing apples to oranges; no one who was sick enough to be eligible for a lobotomy or ECT would have been healthy enough to greatly improve by talk therapy in general, and those who could improve from that kind of talk therapy were not the kind of people who needed lobotomies or ECT.



I have learned nothing about Hubbard that makes me think he wanted to help others, and his e-meter bullshit is psychotherapy in disguise, with someone who isn't trained. Talking to someone about your problems can help you feel better. If e-meter therapy worked for somebody, it is because of the merits of talking to others and the big-ass placebo hit one would get for spending 10,000 a week on therapy.
I understand what you're getting at and I do agree. You're right that his anger with the psychology industry was likely because he wasn't getting the attention he felt he deserved, but he certainly had a point to be made when he'd criticize the methods of the industry as well. The medical industry does typically capitalize on people being sick, so it's why they push their own medications as opposed to herbal remedies that are much more effective, and certainly there's some truth with that in psychology, at least back then.

Hubbard did genuinely believe in what he's doing and that thought he solved the ills of mental illness. He'd continuously use the e-meter and audit himself. He wouldn't do that if he thought he was scamming everyone. He definitely did wanna make money off of his methods though, that's unquestionable, but he felt he was justified in doing so.

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 06:01 PM   #84
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I don't mean to seem like I'm praising L Ron Hubbard or something. Clearly he was a pretty fucked up guy in a lot of ways, but he was also quite a brilliant man too.

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 06:34 PM   #85
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what's your take on brigham young

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 07:01 PM   #86
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The school? Don't know much about it other than their sports programs.

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 09:08 PM   #87
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you think this is a game?

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 09:20 PM   #88
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Essentially what happened was that he was pissed off that the medical industry was ignoring his work and he felt that it wasn't getting the attention that it deserved, so starting a religion was a way to really put a focus and benefit from what he thought was groundbreaking therapy.
watch out for kimani shorter

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 09:48 PM   #89
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He's not a threat. I'm sure that charisma, or at least some measure of basic social awareness, is necessary to form a personality cult.

 
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Old 04-29-2018, 11:12 PM   #90
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He's a Pulitzer surprise winner, so I reckon his word is legit.
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