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Old 09-03-2016, 08:17 PM   #31
redbreegull
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Originally Posted by Elphenor View Post
I think it was said he preferred not to play to click tracks but he had to use a metronome if he wanted to play on time so he played to one recording much of SD

His style is jazzy but for the purposes of an arena rock record you'd want to be right on the time sig

I could be mistaken
I'm also not 100% sure but I seem to remember Billy or Jimmy pointing out that certain songs on SD end faster than they start because of his non-ability to play to a click track, which would mean he didn't use a metronome either. There's definitely a Billy quote to the end of "the paradox of click tracks is that only drummers who already have perfect time can play to them."

IMO it doesn't really matter if a drummer has perfect time or not, arena rock or otherwise. Good rhythm is obviously important but John Bonham for example ends a bunch of Zeppelin songs significantly faster than they begin. STH is the obvious example.

 
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:01 PM   #32
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If only we had the technology to research and fact check these things. Until then, blind speculation will have to do.

 
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:12 PM   #33
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I actually couldn't figure it out with a very simple google search so I gave up

 
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:37 PM   #34
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pre-reunion, it used to be really easy to find any quote or statement by BC that I kind of remembered or whatever. at this point he's spouted off so much shit it can be kind of hard to find specific interviews or writings.

 
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:42 PM   #35
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actually I found this, second result on google for "Billy Corgan click track." Interview with Butch Vig. Some interesting things about SD in there... apparently he kept a journal through the whole process of recording the album, and there is some very "dark" stuff in there he has considered putting out there for the fans. Anyway

Quote:
But [Billy] had a "feel thing" with Jimmy. He really understood Jimmy's drumming. Jimmy had this push/pull thing. He wasn't like a metronomic drummer, you know. He wasn't like a perfect 4/4 click track drummer - I think we used a click track on one or two songs on Siamese Dream. It moves around a lot, and Billy really understood Jimmy's playing. It was like a thick fence, almost, but he was really able to lock in with Jimmy, which is not always easy to do when you have to come back and overdub, when you're not playing live with someone.
http://www.songfacts.com/blog/interviews/butch_vig/

 
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:46 PM   #36
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and an interview with JC from 07

Quote:
The days of safe, Pro Tooled music are over. I just can’t get emotionally connected to something that was recorded to a click track in a computer. I’m too much of a jazz fan and a fan of music in general to get behind anything like that. It just bugs me.

Seeing people respond to this record has been really interesting. We recorded everything live to tape–and we didn’t use click tracks, and we didn’t use Pro Tools. We didn’t do any digital editing at all either, so the drum takes you hear are just me going for it. People really respond to that. They want to hear human beings making music, not a Macintosh G5.
http://www.moderndrummer.com/site/20...-chamberlin-2/

 
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Old 09-03-2016, 11:47 PM   #37
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that's not to say he hasn't used click track or metronome, but it sounds like his philosophy is basically that music shouldn't be computer-perfect.

 
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Old 09-04-2016, 12:32 AM   #38
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Right but my only point was that he used it on songs where he wanted a more "perfect" sound and SD is a record that goes all out in achieving that

Though I don't suspect he used it on MCIS because they just go for synthetic drums when they want that

 
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Old 09-04-2016, 12:47 AM   #39
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I dunno, it's not really evident to me where he used a click track on SD. Jimmy is very very very good but I wouldn't really describe him as a technical math whiz behind the kit and his fluidity is a big part of his sound. Maybe on a song like Today?

I'm not a drummer so this is an outsider's perspective, but I don't really hear a click track having made any kind of discernible difference in his drumming. If Butch Vig recalls correctly and they really only used it on 1-2 songs, there definitely is not any single song that jumps out at me as having more perfect rhythm than any others. The Vig quote kind of made me think he was saying they used the click track on a few songs because Billy couldn't match Jimmy's imperfections when overdubbing without him live, not because they were going for something mathematically perfect sounding. He keeps good enough rhythm that it doesn't matter and the huge range of things he does (on Gish he says he literally never played the same measure twice, ever, on the whole album) obscures the need for extremely tight, perfect drums IMO

Last edited by redbreegull : 09-04-2016 at 12:56 AM.

 
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Old 09-04-2016, 01:16 AM   #40
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I also could not give less of a shit about Metallica. That song sounds pretty sterile to me. I have no idea if that is the result of Lars using a click track or them being the incredibly washed up iteration of a band that was bad from the release of their first material.

I just like talking about J0mmy Chamberlin

 
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Old 09-04-2016, 01:30 AM   #41
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I think Gish drums sound much more loose/live take than SD drums

I'm just saying there's nothing in modern popular rock, production wise, that hasn't been used to a degree on the classic rock albums Run2Me probably likes

but I like a ton of music that's just set to a drum machine and the 80's almighty compressed snare is my jam so

 
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Old 09-04-2016, 04:06 AM   #42
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you guys are not making the necessary differentiation between recording to a click track, and editing recorded audio to perfectly match the click track.

recording with a click track simply forces musicians to adhere to a steady tempo, but they'll still play 'imperfectly' over it, retaining the human feel. this is hardly 'overproducing' - just a more grounded aesthetic than playing freeform with no reference whatsoever.

what's so awful about modern music is that the human element is completely gone from it. whether you're listening to electronic music or acoustic music, it's all relentlessly edited and made to sound like it was played by a perfect robot, and everything is always in the pocket with everything else that's simultaneously going on. but 'more accurate' is certainly not always 'better'. (btw, there's also the issue of lack of dynamics, because music these days is really, really, really compressed, and that cancels out most of the natural dynamics in people's playing. so you end up with a recording that is always on computer-perfect time, with very little variation in volume. very sonically ungratifying, at least for me)

also, it's mainly a difference in recording technology. re: elph's point, rock might have always been heavily produced (let's take Queen's A Night at The Opera for example). but when you're recording to tape, fucking with recorded audio is much more complicated and difficult than it is with DAW's. and even if you do do it, it's less precise. so that doesn't say nothing was ever fixed on tape - but rather, that fixes were few and far between, and you had to live up to a certain standard as a musician to keep up with it. so seeing as tape was mainly gone from the music industry around 2000, that's about the cutoff point i was referring to. doesn't even have to do with the actual music, really - just the way it is presented in its finalized form.

Last edited by teh b0lly!!1 : 09-04-2016 at 06:02 AM.

 
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Old 09-04-2016, 04:12 AM   #43
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It was just an example of one of many studio tools used to make things more robotic

Again "modern music" you mean Pop music or popular rock I assume. Well yeah it's all overproduced but Queen is overproduced too

And if it's electronic music well what do you expect?

There is more post production going on with a Queen album than there is on say an Animal Collective album in reality or at least about the same

I don't at all see this as a modern issue its just most everything is overproduced

 
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Old 09-04-2016, 04:50 AM   #44
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i think we have different ideas of 'overproducing'.

you dig skin-and-bones punk stuff, but that doesn't necessarily mean queen was overproduced. their studio practice was lavish and extravagant, no doubt, but it was all about bringing their vision to life. what i mean by overproducing is inadequately treating the music at hand. i'm not saying any computerized time editing is automatically terrible. some stuff sounds great with quantized-ish grooves and a colder feel. more than anything else i was complaining about the lack of variation i guess. these days almost any band that walks into a studio is going to get produced and homogenized according to Production 101, unless they explicitly and insistingly demand otherwise (radiohead's a good example for this that i know of).

if i were to compare it to visual arts, i guess for this purpose i'd compare queen to baroque art, with lots of ornaments, embellishments and details (which is not inherently a flaw - just a choice), and what i refer to as 'overproduction', as the practice of ripping model images in photoshop. like, it's a different ballpark.

i mean yeah, of course it's possible to find bands that don't follow this, but they're becoming increasingly rare because it's just an industry standard everybody kinda needs to align to, unless you put your foot down and say NO to it. and most people will just go 'yeah whatever, lets just record'.

Last edited by teh b0lly!!1 : 09-04-2016 at 06:03 AM.

 
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Old 09-04-2016, 06:23 AM   #45
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a click track was used on luna and mayonaise. i'm pretty sure about that. you can check this website out to search for a song a look at its BPM deviation diagram: http://labs.echonest.com/click/
the bigger the deviations in tempo are, the more likely it is that there was no click track.
I personally enjoy it when you can hear that the music is pretty much a live studio take, without a click track. it adds specific dynamics and feel to the music that you can't get with robotic, computerized drums. it adds energy to the music when it needs it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphenor View Post
His style is jazzy but for the purposes of an arena rock record you'd want to be right on the time sig
time signature? do you know what a time signature is?

 
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Old 09-04-2016, 11:25 AM   #46
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Is it like a tramp stamp?

 
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Old 09-04-2016, 11:26 AM   #47
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What about erosion?

 
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Old 09-04-2016, 11:57 AM   #48
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"Right on the time sig" as in being glued to it

Not like "oops I played in the wrong one"

 
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Old 09-07-2016, 11:41 AM   #49
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so since this is the old people metal thread

how come slayer still sound just as pissed off and relentless as they did in their heydey

how can a guy still scream his balls off like that after 30 years


 
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Old 09-07-2016, 12:15 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1 View Post
so since this is the old people metal thread

how come slayer still sound just as pissed off and relentless as they did in their heydey

how can a guy still scream his balls off like that after 30 years

Holy shit that song ripped my face off

 
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Old 09-07-2016, 01:31 PM   #51
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I didn't mind the metallica song.

Sounds like a band doing their thing and having fun.

 
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Old 09-07-2016, 03:36 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1 View Post
so since this is the old people metal thread

how come slayer still sound just as pissed off and relentless as they did in their heydey

how can a guy still scream his balls off like that after 30 years

The power of Christ compels him.

Coincidentally, I'm listening to that album as I type this, and yes, it most certainly does rock, but also sounds a little tired and forced (this is my third time sitting through it in the year since it came out). It works better in small doses (2-3 songs at a time). I'm just too lazy to change it.

 
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Old 09-07-2016, 03:38 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brutechinasky View Post
tbf i kinda liked death magnetic
Would've been a killer album if it hadn't been mixed so poorly and if they had shaved down the length of half the songs. As it stands, it's just this big, bloated noisy mess with good songs buried underneath.

 
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Old 09-07-2016, 05:17 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphenor View Post
It was just an example of one of many studio tools used to make things more robotic

Again "modern music" you mean Pop music or popular rock I assume. Well yeah it's all overproduced but Queen is overproduced too

And if it's electronic music well what do you expect?

There is more post production going on with a Queen album than there is on say an Animal Collective album in reality or at least about the same

I don't at all see this as a modern issue its just most everything is overproduced

It was all tape and tubes in the 70's, much different head-space going into post-production back-in-the-day.

 
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