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Old 06-09-2020, 12:50 PM   #61
Disco King
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My problem with libertarianism (in the American sense. I’m actually quite libertarian left on the political compass) is that being socially left wing is kinda rendered meaningless if you’re right wing economically. Corporations aren’t people. I try to understand everyone’s views though. One of my two best friends is libertarian. We argue about it a lot but I respect him still. Unless Forgotten Child is advocating for fascism, I agree he shouldn’t be demonized simply for having a view we don’t like.
I see libertarians as largely falling into two camps.

There are the sincere ones who genuinely think that free markets and competition with lift all boats and give everyone a fair chance and improve human welfare and allow everyone to rise to the top. I think they are naive and I don't agree with them, but they are generally okay people. I respect them more than I do traditional conservatives, because at least when they say they want the government out of their lives, they actually mean it, and don't make exceptions for "but I still want the government to tell me who I can marry and to throw me in jail for putting the big no-no substances into my body and to have an interest in promoting one religion over others."

The other camp of libertarians are the ones who aren't under the illusion that capitalism is in the best interest of everybody, but don't care, because "fuck the poor, fuck minorities, fuck women; I've got mine, Jack." A lot of them are closet fascists who, despite thinking that the government should be kept out of markets, still want the government to strictly regulate immigration as a form of trade barrier on cheap labour, because if brown people are willing to work harder for less money, then the government should step in to protect less competitive whites. They tend to embrace shades of cultural- and ethno-nationalism that pretty smoothly greases their slide through the libertarianism-to-fascism-pipeline. And the next thing you know, they have gone from regurgitating Ayn Rand to Tweeting about how female popstars need to stop wasting their eggs and instead stay at home and start making babies before the browns and blacks start outbreeding the whites.


 
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Old 06-09-2020, 01:52 PM   #62
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I wanna know Mark McGrath's thoughts on the issues. You know, mr. racist jive hands while I introduce a Japanese member to sing Blew Away himself

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 01:58 PM   #63
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I see libertarians as largely falling into two camps.

There are the sincere ones who genuinely think that free markets and competition with lift all boats and give everyone a fair chance and improve human welfare and allow everyone to rise to the top. I think they are naive and I don't agree with them, but they are generally okay people. I respect them more than I do traditional conservatives, because at least when they say they want the government out of their lives, they actually mean it, and don't make exceptions for "but I still want the government to tell me who I can marry and to throw me in jail for putting the big no-no substances into my body and to have an interest in promoting one religion over others."

The other camp of libertarians are the ones who aren't under the illusion that capitalism is in the best interest of everybody, but don't care, because "fuck the poor, fuck minorities, fuck women; I've got mine, Jack." A lot of them are closet fascists who, despite thinking that the government should be kept out of markets, still want the government to strictly regulate immigration as a form of trade barrier on cheap labour, because if brown people are willing to work harder for less money, then the government should step in to protect less competitive whites. They tend to embrace shades of cultural- and ethno-nationalism that pretty smoothly greases their slide through the libertarianism-to-fascism-pipeline. And the next thing you know, they have gone from regurgitating Ayn Rand to Tweeting about how female popstars need to stop wasting their eggs and instead stay at home and start making babies before the browns and blacks start outbreeding the whites.

Luckily my friend is in the first camp. He voted for Bernie like me, so there’s definitely some overlap of our views, but it’s mostly social. Economically we’re pretty different.

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 02:09 PM   #64
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I see libertarians as largely falling into two camps.

There are the sincere ones who genuinely think that free markets and competition with lift all boats and give everyone a fair chance and improve human welfare and allow everyone to rise to the top. I think they are naive and I don't agree with them, but they are generally okay people. I respect them more than I do traditional conservatives, because at least when they say they want the government out of their lives, they actually mean it, and don't make exceptions for "but I still want the government to tell me who I can marry and to throw me in jail for putting the big no-no substances into my body and to have an interest in promoting one religion over others."

The other camp of libertarians are the ones who aren't under the illusion that capitalism is in the best interest of everybody, but don't care, because "fuck the poor, fuck minorities, fuck women; I've got mine, Jack." A lot of them are closet fascists who, despite thinking that the government should be kept out of markets, still want the government to strictly regulate immigration as a form of trade barrier on cheap labour, because if brown people are willing to work harder for less money, then the government should step in to protect less competitive whites. They tend to embrace shades of cultural- and ethno-nationalism that pretty smoothly greases their slide through the libertarianism-to-fascism-pipeline. And the next thing you know, they have gone from regurgitating Ayn Rand to Tweeting about how female popstars need to stop wasting their eggs and instead stay at home and start making babies before the browns and blacks start outbreeding the whites.

I never ever encounter the former irl

the official Libertarian Platform is pro-immigration

but never have I talked to a Libertarian who doesn't suddenly go full Law and Order when it comes to brown people entering the country

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 02:13 PM   #65
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capital L as an ideology in The States (idk about Canada) is another word for some fucked up Randian worldview

but libertarian as a tradition really means a type of socialist

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 02:23 PM   #66
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Lol let me check

Fascists advocate for / I believe in

Media regulation / freedom of the press
Economic interventionism / Economic Freedom
Protectionism / free market
High taxes / less taxes as possible
Authoritarianism / Libertarianism


Yeah, right, I ticked every box. Didn't I? Did you?
We know what libertarians are all about. Those dichotomies are bullshit. You don't support free speech or the freedom of press, or else you would be livid that the Murdochs of this world yield so much control over it. You have nothing to say about it other than maybe "it wouldn't happen if we were all ancaps!", while going against every policy or grassroots movement that could improve the situation.

You don't even support the spirit of the 2nd Amendment in the US, or else you would be furious that white people are allowed to walk into town with a bazooka while black kids are killed for cosplaying as a samurai outside.

You can think yourself a freedom lover all you want, but face it - when push comes to shove, you will side with white supremacy, in America, Brazil and anywhere else. It's a pathetic sleight of hand, and no one is buying it.

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 02:23 PM   #67
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post-punk is really a metal sub-sub-genre

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 02:28 PM   #68
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lol metal

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 02:45 PM   #69
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It's a thread with everybody talking about politics, calling people names such as "fascists", only for saying left wing organizations can be as extreme and violent as the far right ones, or racists, or transphobics, and monster! Did I see you threatening to ban anyone else tho? No, i didn't! Did I see you mentioning to close the fucking thread to follow the "no politics" policy here, or even moving it to the "general chat" section? hell no! Is there a "no politics" policy in place, or is it just a "no politics that I disagree"?
The no politics talk on the SP board was once agreed upon so that nobody would get banned.
I don't give a shit about either at this point, what I do give a shit about is equating BLM and the KKK. What the problem with that remark is, you might wonder? That remark is where sharing your opinion ends and something else starts. What else could that be? You'll find that out, prerferably in silence, thanks!

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 02:55 PM   #70
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so

anyone else find the band's silence on the recent civil rights abuses a bit weird?

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 02:56 PM   #71
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can we please also ban elphenour for loling at metal?

thank u

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 03:01 PM   #72
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you're right, there's absolutely nothing funny about metal


 
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Old 06-09-2020, 03:01 PM   #73
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I'm just minding my own buiz listening to Big Star

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 03:03 PM   #74
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metal is so lol it makes anyone who plays the guitar now kinda lol

the dream is over, music is over

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 03:06 PM   #75
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bullfucking shit it is. boris are just hitting their second plateau. deny that and GET BANNED.


Ram! You know what to do.

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 03:06 PM   #76
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My problem with libertarianism (in the American sense. I’m actually quite libertarian left on the political compass) is that being socially left wing is kinda rendered meaningless if you’re right wing economically. Corporations aren’t people. I try to understand everyone’s views though. One of my two best friends is libertarian. We argue about it a lot but I respect him still. Unless Forgotten Child is advocating for fascism, I agree he shouldn’t be demonized simply for having a view we don’t like.
I'm not very much in favour of calling people fascists but he should deinitely be demonized. He brought that on himself by that choice little post of his

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 03:07 PM   #77
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you're right, there's absolutely nothing funny about metal

yeah they look like a bunch of doofuses 4 sure

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 03:07 PM   #78
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insert that meme pic of the anime guy holding the butterfly labelled "books" saying "is this nihilism?"

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 03:07 PM   #79
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I'm not very much in favour of calling people fascists but he should deinitely be demonized. He brought that on himself by that choice little post of his
we're talking about boris now plz and thank you

if your banned dont blame me.

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 03:21 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
I see libertarians as largely falling into two camps.

There are the sincere ones who genuinely think that free markets and competition with lift all boats and give everyone a fair chance and improve human welfare and allow everyone to rise to the top. I think they are naive and I don't agree with them, but they are generally okay people. I respect them more than I do traditional conservatives, because at least when they say they want the government out of their lives, they actually mean it, and don't make exceptions for "but I still want the government to tell me who I can marry and to throw me in jail for putting the big no-no substances into my body and to have an interest in promoting one religion over others."

The other camp of libertarians are the ones who aren't under the illusion that capitalism is in the best interest of everybody, but don't care, because "fuck the poor, fuck minorities, fuck women; I've got mine, Jack." A lot of them are closet fascists who, despite thinking that the government should be kept out of markets, still want the government to strictly regulate immigration as a form of trade barrier on cheap labour, because if brown people are willing to work harder for less money, then the government should step in to protect less competitive whites. They tend to embrace shades of cultural- and ethno-nationalism that pretty smoothly greases their slide through the libertarianism-to-fascism-pipeline. And the next thing you know, they have gone from regurgitating Ayn Rand to Tweeting about how female popstars need to stop wasting their eggs and instead stay at home and start making babies before the browns and blacks start outbreeding the whites.


Ermm .... no. Those two are the same one

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 03:52 PM   #81
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You're right. Nobody who disagrees with us economically has ever been an okay person.

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 04:26 PM   #82
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The other camp of libertarians are the ones who aren't under the illusion that capitalism is in the best interest of everybody, but don't care, because "fuck the poor, fuck minorities, fuck women; I've got mine, Jack." A lot of them are closet fascists who, despite thinking that the government should be kept out of markets, still want the government to strictly regulate immigration as a form of trade barrier on cheap labour, because if brown people are willing to work harder for less money, then the government should step in to protect less competitive whites. They tend to embrace shades of cultural- and ethno-nationalism that pretty smoothly greases their slide through the libertarianism-to-fascism-pipeline. And the next thing you know, they have gone from regurgitating Ayn Rand to Tweeting about how female popstars need to stop wasting their eggs and instead stay at home and start making babies before the browns and blacks start outbreeding the whites.
I don't consider those ones libertarians or even conservatives. I call them reactionarists, and I don't agree with them at all. I don't believe capitalism is perfect or irreplaceable, I believe it's the best system we've came up with so far – and it's the best way to fight against poverty, which is what keep minorities so marginalized.

I'm am not an AnCap tho, I consider myself more of a "classical liberal" highly influenced by Hayek and Milton Friedman, which means I still believe it's ok if the government takes part in the educational system, health care and public security (while I'm still against government monopolies). I'm a pro-choice, I support same-sex marriage, LGBTQ+ adoption, drug liberalisation, and free movement. What else is left there? I'm also a vegan, for the exact same reasons.

Still, I get called a fucking fascist. You know how ridiculous that sound, specially when one of the mods support that kind of message and threats to ban me instead?

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 04:41 PM   #83
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I haven't interacted with you much and know nothing about your political opinions beyond what's been shared in this thread, but equating either BLM or "social justice warriors" more broadly to the KKK is false equivalence that muddies the waters of debate in a way that only really serves the far right.

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 04:54 PM   #84
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I'm not very much in favour of calling people fascists but he should deinitely be demonized. He brought that on himself by that choice little post of his
I agree. I already mocked him for that. It’s a terrible thing to say. I get the point he and Billy are trying to make it but the analogy is so farcical, insensitive and offensive it just makes them sound like at best racially insensitive jackasses. My point was people shouldn’t be censored for their political views. Demonized was a poor choice of words, as I frequently demonize peoole for their political views.

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:15 PM   #85
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I haven't interacted with you much and know nothing about your political opinions beyond what's been shared in this thread, but equating either BLM or "social justice warriors" more broadly to the KKK is false equivalence that muddies the waters of debate in a way that only really serves the far right.
To be honest I didn't even notice Pale Princess misquoted Billy once again, swapping SJWs for BLM. Secondly, Billy never said "SJWs are like the KKK", that is simplistic and distorted version of what was actually said by him – without wasting too much time on this (cause I believe the video itself is still out there for anyone to watch it instead of reading click bait tabloids) Billy was talking about freedom of speech and how the SJWs mob mentality represents a threat to it, then Jones compared how SJWs wants to shut down everybody purely out of hate, "like a stupid Klan guy that kills someone coming home from work just because they are black" (or something like that). Billy picks up that analogy and says something like "if you go back to a time where racism was accepted and institutionalised, don't you think a Klan guy spitting in a person of colour's face thought he was actually right?"

Now you can still disagree with him about that, but those two quotes are quite different, aren't they?

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 06:59 PM   #86
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Old 06-09-2020, 07:06 PM   #87
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can't tell if this dude's back-trackin' by way of hamfisted Corgan/Jones points or actually didn't see the all-caps BLM in pp's original post

what it DO, Forgotten Chile???

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 07:25 PM   #88
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To be honest I didn't even notice Pale Princess misquoted Billy once again, swapping SJWs for BLM. Secondly, Billy never said "SJWs are like the KKK", that is simplistic and distorted version of what was actually said by him – without wasting too much time on this (cause I believe the video itself is still out there for anyone to watch it instead of reading click bait tabloids) Billy was talking about freedom of speech and how the SJWs mob mentality represents a threat to it, then Jones compared how SJWs wants to shut down everybody purely out of hate, "like a stupid Klan guy that kills someone coming home from work just because they are black" (or something like that). Billy picks up that analogy and says something like "if you go back to a time where racism was accepted and institutionalised, don't you think a Klan guy spitting in a person of colour's face thought he was actually right?"

Now you can still disagree with him about that, but those two quotes are quite different, aren't they?
I certainly agree that some people go too far in deciding what is and isn’t okay to say, but most of these people are well meaning. I don’t see how you could possibly say the KKK were anything but pure evil. The fact that some of them believe they are good just shows you how truly warped their values systems are. I believe freedom of speech is important and I definitely am probably much more absolute than that than the majority of this board. So while “SJWs” might get on my nerves I do not feel like they are doing it out of malice like the KKK does with their attempts to control society.

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 07:27 PM   #89
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can't tell if this dude's back-trackin' by way of hamfisted Corgan/Jones points or actually didn't see the all-caps BLM in pp's original post

what it DO, Forgotten Chile???

I honestly didn't notice it. One of the reasons why I didn't notice it was because PP has been misquoting Billy on that one for years now and, even tho people pointed that out, PP ignores them and keep saying "Billy compared BLM to KKK". And I can prove it:

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Originally Posted by pale_princess View Post
Bill being a terrible person, whether he's threatening and misgendering a transwoman or comparing BLM to the KKK. Just when you think he's said the worst thing ever, he'll top it.

Last edited by Forgotten Child : 06-09-2020 at 07:51 PM.

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 07:31 PM   #90
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That makes Billy’s quote better but still not exactly good. Although I believe George Carlin said political correctness is fascism masquerading as politeness and he wasn’t what anyone could possibly call right wing. Like I said I agree with Billy’s point that there are many people who are trying to censor freedom of speech, but he used such an awful analogy that it just made him look like a shitty person. It didn’t help that he said it while hanging out with Alex Jones, who might well have some sympathies towards actual fascism.

 
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