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Old 05-31-2020, 12:24 AM   #121
redbreegull
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cause if "decayed society" does in fact mean a society which is worse off than four years ago, I concede your point. I just don't think that's what West meant and I don't believe he thinks the decay started with Trump, either

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 12:26 AM   #122
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It just really disappoints me to have to do this with grown adults I have at least one thing in common with.



We're talking about whether conditions are as "sound or prosperous" in the United States, where my use of the word decline as analogous conforms perfectly to the authoritative source for American English.

The "sound or prosperous condition" referred to is highly reminiscent of that period you've described as "especially good for an especially large number of people in the US in the last 60-80 years," isn't it?

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 12:52 AM   #123
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The "sound or prosperous condition" referred to is highly reminiscent of that period you've described as "especially good for an especially large number of people in the US in the last 60-80 years," isn't it?
yeah but this hasn't changed. we are still in that period, from the perspective which claims it exists. we can get into like the moral decay of the government and the bureaucracy during the Trump period, but if we are just looking at how the most typical american person is doing, they are doing better now than in the past by a lot of metrics. again.... this is a really stupid fucking argument over definition of terms. what ovary said totally makes sense. cornell west regularly uses colorful and exaggerated rhetoric. I also really like cornell west btw. i also think ovary's objection to his use of "decayed" is legitimate because I do believe the choice of words is meant to make a pathological appeal for action and awareness.

I don't even disagree with his use of it, but it's also legitimate to point out that it bypasses the fact that america has always been bad if not worse for people of color and other minorities. feel free to google stats on deaths by disease and race in the US to find out that people of color die of fucking everything more than whites do. Trump is fucking awful and you know I hate him, but he didn't make America a racist af country. If anything, race relations started decaying from the 90s PC era when Obama was elected and all the racists in america had aneurysms over it. but guess what that beautiful golden era when both black and white americans reported feeling more positively about race relations is the same era in which bipartisan tough on crime legislation sent millions of non-violent offenders to federal prisons and most of them were black and hispanic and that was largely pioneered by nixon, reagan, clinton, and most of the older democrats today like Biden.

it's almost like this is a racist fucking country that is founded on slavery and it has been extremely fucked up for minority races since day 1

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 01:23 AM   #124
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Okay, so you appear to be suggesting that you support ovary's opposition to a word being used according to its dictionary definition because of feelings you both have about a particular writer and leftists other than yourselves. Thank you for explaining.

A summary of your posts so far on the topic would also suggest that you disagree that anything points to any decline justifying the use of this term in America's society or its status within the world and apparently also think that things are trending upwards for you. You are not prepared to acknowledge that China's growth presents a threat to America's status or its objectives on any level or do not believe that China will be successful. Sweet as, cheers.

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 01:34 AM   #125
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what the fuck are you even saying

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 01:40 AM   #126
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A pertinent question, indeed.

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 08:36 AM   #127
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omg this thread BLOWS

both of you stfu!!!

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 10:28 AM   #128
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And seeing lines like the US is still better than the majority of other countries, in a week where it has the worst riots in 50 years, and in a year where it somehow does worse in preventing people from dying in a pandemic than the majority of other countries,
The US has a cultural presence in the world much wider than its actual population and influence, so its struggles get magnified and scrutinized and discussed much more than those in other countries. Yes, we're having bad riots right now, but there are straight up civil wars/genocides going on in a number of states--Syria, Libya, China, Myanmar, Yemen, etc. etc. Look at central America, look at Mexico, which has been engaged in a civil war for years and years that nobody ever talks about. And though the media has found its numbers to claim that "the US leads the world in coronavirus deaths," that ignores both a) all the countries that either areen't counting or are manipulating their numbers more than we are, and b) the per-capita distinction. When looked at per-capita, we're doing better than most of Western Europe.(https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality)

I can understand that making the "eh, it's not too bad" argument can seem like I'm minimizing the real and present problems the US is facing right now, and I apologize for that bad timing. But I've stated several times why I think that framing the US as in decline is counterproductive to leftist goals, which I want to see realized as much as anybody, but nobody has engaged with me on that, so whatever. I don't feel like anyone is engaging with me on any of this at all really, so I will give up.

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 10:35 AM   #129
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good

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 01:51 PM   #130
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But I've stated several times why I think that framing the US as in decline is counterproductive to leftist goals...
And that's where we disagree.
Framed or actually in decline, I think we are through with that.

Counterproductive for leftist goals, to me, is comparing the US to Syria, Lybia, and China.
Could it be worse? No shit, somewhere I'm sure they grill babies in case we run out of countries that are shittier to live in than the US.
This complacency that yea, it could be worse, no decline, it was rotten at the core from day 1--that's where I personally don't see any productivity coming from. It's a cosy way out, that's all that is.
If you feel productivity for leftist goals when you see no decline, then good for you. Someone else might get going by seeing decline.

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:17 PM   #131
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A little taken aback by ovary's claim that he's stated several times why he thinks that framing the US as in decline is counterproductive to leftist goals and how absolutely nobody will engage him on that, I had a look back through his posts and only found two examples of such. Neither contain any reasoning or support whatsoever.

Quote:
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I think that the left will win elections when it tells a story of ascendance and progress (Obama, Biden) rather than decline and decay (Sanders).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovary View Post
the left wins when it runs on optimism and hope and loses when it runs on negative critical messages, and i want the left to win.
Mysteriously, his argument seems to have gone from "it'd be inaccurate to describe America as in decay" to "there is no decline because we abolished slavery and invented disinfectant" to "I just think that leftist candidates have a better chance of winning if we say positive stuff." Lucky for Greg Shulz that ovary is too busy with his chronic analysis to take over as campaign manager with such a maverick election strategy as that.

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 10:10 PM   #132
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So if we don’t see a massive increase in COVID cases, what will the excuse be?

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 10:20 PM   #133
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So if we don't run out of pork and meat, what will the excuse be?

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 10:46 PM   #134
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wow ninsp, so thought-provoking. i guess we'll see, huh!

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 11:27 PM   #135
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So if we don’t see a massive increase in COVID cases, what will the excuse be?
what if we had feet for butts and butts for faces?

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 11:37 PM   #136
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what if we had feet for butts and butts for faces?
...so what would we have for feet

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 11:58 PM   #137
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Burn this country to the fuckin ground

 
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Old 05-31-2020, 11:59 PM   #138
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I didn't know Zack de la Rocha posted on Netphoria!

 
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Old 06-01-2020, 12:39 AM   #139
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I didn't know Zack de la Rocha posted on Netphoria!
must spread rep

 
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Old 06-01-2020, 07:27 AM   #140
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...so what would we have for feet
faces duh. bring that shit full circle.

 
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Old 06-01-2020, 02:58 PM   #141
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...so what would we have for feet
yeah i messed that one up

 
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Old 06-09-2020, 10:53 AM   #142
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12 COVID cases traced to Jersey Shore Memorial Day weekend gatherings: Officials
The cases were found in residents of Bucks County, Pennsylvania.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/12-covid-c...ry?id=71134011

 
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Old 06-11-2020, 06:50 PM   #143
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REMEMBER THE CORONAVIRUS? That was the pandemic which we were told by public health experts since February was so grave — the worst public health threat since the 1918 Spanish Flu — that we could not go outside for any reason, even if it meant a collapse in the global economy, tens or hundreds of millions of people suffering from unemployment, the permanent shuttering of small businesses, sustained mental health damage, and the separation of people from their loved ones and communities, including barring them from visiting dying spouses and parents and children in the hospital or even attending an outdoor burial.

...

What has changed — dramatically, radically and abruptly — is the messaging from public health experts and even public officials about the virus. Beginning roughly two weeks ago, we all watched as mass stay-at-home orders and self-isolation gave way to massive street protests, where tens or hundreds of thousands of people gathered together in the U.S. and around the world, often one on top of the other, chanting, yelling and singing: a virtual laboratory for what we had spent four months hearing was exactly what one must not do in the middle of this pandemic.

...

How is it remotely within the scope of the expertise of epidemiologists to pick and choose which political protests should be permitted and/or encouraged and which ones banned and/or denounced? Those are plainly political judgments, not scientific ones, and the shoddy, glaring conflation of them is nothing less than a manipulation, an abuse, of public health credentials. For scientists to purport to dictate which citizens can and cannot safely choose to leave their house — based not on health judgments but on their political ideology — is repressive, and certain to erode the credibility of their profession. Yet this is exactly what they are doing: explicitly and shamelessly.

...

But what we should not tolerate, and what the scientific community cannot permit if it is to retain its credibility, is the abuse and manipulation of health expertise for political ends. One of two things is true; either 1) these protests will lead to a significant spike in coronavirus infections and deaths, in which case public health experts should reconcile that outcome with how they could have encouraged and endorsed them; or 2) it will not lead to such a spike, in which case it will appear that the months of extreme, draconian lockdowns — which caused great suffering and deprivation around the world — were excessive, misguided and unwarranted.

At the very least, it is vital that we have the same health and legal standards apply to all citizens and all political ideologies when it comes to the right to leave one’s home, protest or engage in other legal activities. And at least as importantly, we need to understand whether public health experts were too restrictive in their advocated measures at the start of the pandemic, are being too lax now, or somehow can reconcile the radical shift in their posture on scientific rather than political grounds.


https://theintercept.com/2020/06/11/...ss-gatherings/

 
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:02 PM   #144
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if it doesn't lead to huge spikes it will mean that we got it to a low enough level to stop it from high circulation because of lockdown.

but we didn't. the most we can hope for is it takes a month or two until it gets bad again.

there is a disconnect though, when people say protesting is worth it but x wasn't. usually filled with 'haircuts' and 'going to the bar' etc, but really it's not about haircuts or bars but barbers and the livelihood of those who work at the establishments, at a higher level.

i still think it was worth it, and sure some people really do mean 'haircuts' when they complain about wanting to get a haircut.

so the question is, are tens of thousands or more of extra deaths worth businesses staying in business? or, will the toll be so high - if they do stay open - that it won't matter anyway, business will have to close because all the workers will be sick, people will be too afraid to go out anyway, etc?

and the current question is, are tens of thousands or more of extra deaths worth significant police reform and acknowledgement of the wrongness of the confederacy and real measures to get past that on a societal level? or, when all those people do get sick, will the movement itself be vilified as 'causing' so much death for a not good enough reason?

Last edited by reprise85 : 06-11-2020 at 07:09 PM.

 
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:11 PM   #145
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of course there are plenty of other things... family gatherings, religious meetings, etc

but just for what that article was talking about

 
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:41 PM   #146
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so the question is, are tens of thousands or more of extra deaths worth businesses staying in business? or, will the toll be so high - if they do stay open - that it won't matter anyway, business will have to close because all the workers will be sick, people will be too afraid to go out anyway, etc?

and the current question is, are tens of thousands or more of extra deaths worth significant police reform and acknowledgement of the wrongness of the confederacy and real measures to get past that on a societal level? or, when all those people do get sick, will the movement itself be vilified as 'causing' so much death for a not good enough reason?

I think 400 years of genocide, slavery, apartheid, and school-to-prison is worth the risk.

We are on the brink of an all out fascist government. If fixing some of this isn't worth it than nothing is.

 
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Old 06-11-2020, 08:24 PM   #147
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Yes, I agree. Apparently so do a lot of people. But it's also going to be a very high cost and I hope hospitals are using this time to really prepare for what is going to come soon.

 
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Old 06-12-2020, 07:09 AM   #148
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Sweden will be at herd immunity in a couple of weeks.
(NINSP, April 2020)

 
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Old 06-12-2020, 11:23 AM   #149
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What's that, soyboy? I can't see your post because I blocked you and pierced my eyeballs with hot pokers.

 
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Old 06-12-2020, 01:33 PM   #150
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an organizer said in speech that was barack hussein obama is white supremacy in black face and i was like OH SNAP

 
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