One and Two from the MCIS reissue, and the true end of the band

[Reyngel]

So, what's the deal with this recording? When the reissue dropped, I thought it was exactly the same as the one from Iha's solo album and so never listened to it closely. But after listening to it again, it's clearly different. Things I noticed that were different from the Let it Come Down version:

-Electric guitar picking added on top of the acoustic guitar
-Reverb added to the vocals
-D'arcy's vocals present throughout more of the track
-Extra cello throughout the track
-Extra James vocal backing added here and there
-Drums and other percussion sound like that of a different kit, maybe a different drummer... Jimmy?
-The ending is different, with a concluding synth, keyboard and cello accent

The fact that Billy was in possession of all these extra pieces to remix into the original James solo track leads me to believe that the song was originally intended to be on a Pumpkins release... maybe Mellon Collie, or at the very least TAFH. That said, it's possible that James did acoustic guitar, synths, keyboards and vocals, Billy did backup electric guitar, D'arcy did bass and backup vocals, Jimmy did the percussion, and the strings... who knows.

Perhaps that's why Iha's solo album version is way more stripped down... to purposely omit any traces of "Pumpkins" contributions? And if that's the case, I wonder if Let it Come Down wasn't an innocent solo album as we were led to believe, but rather the first public departure for James from Billy's disagreeing vision for the band.

Chronologically, maybe it looked something like this:

-The true and final "together" album for the Pumpkins, Mellon Collie, is prepared in 1995
-James offers a good number of songs to Billy for the album, like The Boy, The Bells, Believe, A Night Like This and One and Two, which are all subsequently denied by Billy, except for Take Me Down
-Jimmy overdoses and is fired, Melvoin dies, Billy's mom dies, and Billy goes through a divorce, all by Summer of 1997
-Billy falls into a deep depression and emotionally becomes disconnected from the band, leading to the prolonged writing of a major eulogy album, Adore, toward the Fall of 1997
-James, after being stonewalled artistically on a double-album, finds that Billy has become even more alone in the creative process of the band throughout the production and recording of Adore, and thus decides he has had enough. This prompts the beginning of James' solo album, Let it Come Down, toward the end of 1997, including the use of his One and Two track, purposely omitting Billy and Jimmy's performance tracks
-Billy releases his Adore, and James releases his Let it Come Down, in the first half of 1998
-James informs Billy that he is not on board with Billy's reclusive, excluding ethos for the Pumpkins, and voices his desire to leave the band around Christmastime of 1998
-Billy pleads to James to stay on for one more album, explaining that he would bring Jimmy back so that the original 4-some could end it as they started for nostalgia's sake in early 1999. James agrees to a final album
-D'arcy loses her shit during the Arising! Tour of mid-1999 and bails. Billy is completely unsympathetic, much to the annoyance of James, further propelling the alienation
-The Pumpkins record Machina in late-1999, with next to none of D'arcy's contribution added, which adds even more fuel to James' fire
-The band releases Machina in early 2000 and set off on an extended Farewell expedition including the Resume the Pose autograph sessions, 2 world tours, and a never-ending stream of publicity interviews and TV performances... all of which force James to fake it for almost 10 straight months to save face
-December 2, 2000, James has fucking overflowed with being emotionally done with Billy, Jimmy and The Smashing Pumpkins. During the final show, he becomes emotionally distraught and overloaded, burning out during Silverfuck, and subsequently fades away off stage without being able to even muster a goodbye

Maybe?

Just some thoughts, ha.

[starlightvideoproductions]

Every point you made is wrong.

[T&T]

not sure the point about a burnout during silverfuck last show is necessary. he checked out long before that... he completed the work he set out to do and that's it, picked up his hat and walked out

[slunken]

not bad for a shot in the dark

[soniclovenoize]

Originally Posted by Reyngel

So, what's the deal with this recording? When the reissue dropped, I thought it was exactly the same as the one from Iha's solo album and so never listened to it closely. But after listening to it again, it's clearly different. Things I noticed that were different from the Let it Come Down version:

-Electric guitar picking added on top of the acoustic guitar
-Reverb added to the vocals
-D'arcy's vocals present throughout more of the track
-Extra cello throughout the track
-Extra James vocal backing added here and there
-Drums and other percussion sound like that of a different kit, maybe a different drummer... Jimmy?
-The ending is different, with a concluding synth, keyboard and cello accent

The fact that Billy was in possession of all these extra pieces to remix into the original James solo track leads me to believe that the song was originally intended to be on a Pumpkins release... maybe Mellon Collie, or at the very least TAFH.

We already know all this. It was apparently a MCIS outtake James revamped for his solo album.

-James offers a good number of songs to Billy for the album, like The Boy, The Bells, Believe, A Night Like This and One and Two, which are all subsequently denied by Billy, except for Take Me Down

A Night Like This was a cover, recorded with other covers specifically for the TAFH boxset. Check your facts.

-James, after being stonewalled artistically on a double-album, finds that Billy has become even more alone in the creative process of the band throughout the production and recording of Adore, and thus decides he has had enough. This prompts the beginning of James' solo album, Let it Come Down, toward the end of 1997, including the use of his One and Two track, purposely omitting Billy and Jimmy's performance tracks

Well, we already have a history of Corgan just letting James go to his own devices when he has his own song, with "Blew Away" for example. To say James intentionally mixed them out is a stretch, since we don't know they were there in the first place. It's more likely James worked on the song himself while Corgan was in a different studio doing 400 guitar overdubs for Ruby.

Also, the majority of Adore was recorded after Let It Come Down was finished. There really wasn't a clash between the two.

-Billy releases his Adore, and James releases his Let it Come Down, both in the Summer of 1998

Check your facts.


The thing about James is, for every bad song he wrote, Corgan wrote ten good songs; for every good song James wrote, Corgan wrote ten more good songs. How do you even compete with that? You don't. You admit defeat and become a sidesman.

Eventually, you get tired of being a sideman. I wouldn't look into it more than that.

[Reyngel]

Originally Posted by soniclovenoize

We already know all this. It was apparently a MCIS outtake James revamped for his solo album.


A Night Like This was a cover, recorded with other covers specifically for the TAFH boxset. Check your facts.



Well, we already have a history of Corgan just letting James go to his own devices when he has his own song, with "Blew Away" for example. To say James intentionally mixed them out is a stretch, since we don't know they were there in the first place. It's more likely James worked on the song himself while Corgan was in a different studio doing 400 guitar overdubs for Ruby.

Also, the majority of Adore was recorded after Let It Come Down was finished. There really wasn't a clash between the two.


Check your facts.


The thing about James is, for every bad song he wrote, Corgan wrote ten good songs; for every good song James wrote, Corgan wrote ten more good songs. How do you even compete with that? You don't. You admit defeat and become a sidesman.

Eventually, you get tired of being a sideman. I wouldn't look into it more than that.

You keep telling me to check my facts, when clearly I was speculating in just about everything I posted... which was the point.

Regardless, how do you figure James "revamped" One and Two for his solo album? If you listen to it, it sounds much more like he just simply took stuff out... and it just so happens that the stuff not present are electric guitar work and different sounding drums/percussion, hense my speculation on those parts being done by Billy and Jimmy.

Also, I think it's a bit of a stretch for you to claim that there is a history of Billy "letting James go to his own devices" with Blew Away. Blew Away... and, what else? Plus, Blew Away wasn't even on an actual album... it was part of the rest of the demos/throw-aways/B-sides that made up Pisces. It wasn't until Mellon Collie that James' contributions are even known about. And out of those 7, 8, maybe 9 songs that James wrote for the Pumpkins during that era, Billy only chose to use 1 for the actual album... an album that had 28 tracks, in fact. All of the rest of James' work was thrown into the rest of the TAFH box set... again, just a collection of throw-aways and demos.

Also, while adore was technically released after Let it Come Down, I thought that what happened was Adore started most of the RECORDING process before James started Let it Come Down. Then Billy started getting obsessive with the mixing and arrangements of Adore which delayed Adore well beyond the intended 6-month completion target... during which, there was a lull where James and D'arcy had nothing to do, and so James set out and finished his solo album. He even borrowed Flood and Matt Walker to help out with mixing and drumming for the album since Billy had pretty much finished with both of them by that point. My guess is that the version of One and Two from the Mellon Collie reissue is with Jimmy. Then, after Jimmy overdosed and was fired, James elected to omit his drums and re-record them using the newly-acquired Matt Walker... but again, this is just me speculating.

And lastly, I know A Night Like This is a cover... but what I didn't know was that it was recorded SPECIFICALLY for TAFH. Are you sure of this? My impression was that after Mellon Collie, there were a TON of left-over songs, including covers like A Night Like This, Clones, Dreaming, etc... and these all got compiled into a leftovers-boxset. I didn't think stuff was specifically written/arranged/recorded for the boxset...?

[Reyngel]

Originally Posted by T&T

not sure the point about a burnout during silverfuck last show is necessary. he checked out long before that... he completed the work he set out to do and that's it, picked up his hat and walked out

True, true. I agree with that.

[soniclovenoize]

It's about fucking time we had an interesting conversation here!

Originally Posted by Reyngel

You keep telling me to check my facts, when clearly I was speculating in just about everything I posted... which was the point.

There is nothing wrong with speculation, but you should do it on fact instead of fiction.

Regardless, how do you figure James "revamped" One and Two for his solo album? If you listen to it, it sounds much more like he just simply took stuff out... and it just so happens that the stuff not present are electric guitar work and different sounding drums/percussion, hense my speculation on those parts being done by Billy and Jimmy.

What extra percussion are you talking about? I'm listening to them both, and the original track sounds like a programmed drum sequence, and the LICD version sounds like that same exact drum pattern with Matt Walker overdubbed onto the choruses. I know you want to believe that that the "extra guitar" is Billy, but I'd say there's an equal chance it's Iha, since, you know, he also played guitar. Also, the drum pattern you hear in the orignal is probably a programmed drum beat (as was done in Thirty Three). If it had been Jimmy, he would have been credited on the album (Matt, Flood and D'Arcy all were).

Also, I think it's a bit of a stretch for you to claim that there is a history of Billy "letting James go to his own devices" with Blew Away. Blew Away... and, what else? Plus, Blew Away wasn't even on an actual album... it was part of the rest of the demos/throw-aways/B-sides that made up Pisces.

It was a contender for Siamese and ended up as a b-side for that album... The fact that it didn't make the album is not really relevant. And Corgan has said himself he took a hands-off approach to it. Just how hands off we don't know, maybe Corgan didn't play on it at all! Not sure, but I know Corgan didn't play on Believe, did he?

It wasn't until Mellon Collie that James' contributions are even known about.

What? We didn't know about Blew Away or Bugg Superstar?

And out of those 7, 8, maybe 9 songs that James wrote for the Pumpkins during that era, Billy only chose to use 1 for the actual album... an album that had 28 tracks, in fact. All of the rest of James' work was thrown into the rest of the TAFH box set... again, just a collection of throw-aways and demos.

What's your point here? Generally the weakest songs fall to the wayside. Also James had admitted all along that it was generally Corgan's band. Which is why Corgan pushed James to do a solo album. I'd say the opposite is true from what you claim: Corgan didn't want to snuff James, so he wanted to give him room to breath. Research interviews, both Corgan and Iha both said Corgan encouraged James to make LICD.

Also, while adore was technically released after Let it Come Down, I thought that what happened was Adore started most of the RECORDING process before James started Let it Come Down.

No. They started demoing early in 97 (which is where Annie Dog comes from). The first formal sessions were in Chicago in fall 97 with brad Wood. They only recorded six or so songs before the sessions stopped. Those sessions did not pan out so well, so the band regrouped in early 1998 to rerecord anew and to clean up the basic tracks the recorded in Chicago. The bulk of Adore was done in LA in spring 1998.

So LICD was apparently finished and released just as the band relocated to LA, where the bulk of Adore was recorded. Your timeline doesn't fit.

Then Billy started getting obsessive with the mixing and arrangements of Adore which delayed Adore well beyond the intended 6-month completion target... during which, there was a lull where James and D'arcy had nothing to do, and so James set out and finished his solo album.

*sigh* no see above. His album was released by the time the famous stories of those two just hanging out in the lobby were happening.

He even borrowed Flood and Matt Walker to help out with mixing and drumming for the album since Billy had pretty much finished with both of them by that point.

Matt Walker had quit the band before they relocated to LA in early 1998. Also Flood had nothing to do with LICD; it was produced by Jim Scott and James. The only thing Flood had to do with the album was one song... Can you guess what it was? It was "One and Two". Why? Because it was a MCIS outtake from 1995.

My guess is that the version of One and Two from the Mellon Collie reissue is with Jimmy. Then, after Jimmy overdosed and was fired, James elected to omit his drums and re-record them using the newly-acquired Matt Walker... but again, this is just me speculating.

Why would they do that? The band didn't do it with The Aeroplane Flies High... Again, see my comment above, it was probably a drum machine.

[soniclovenoize]

Originally Posted by Reyngel

And lastly, I know A Night Like This is a cover... but what I didn't know was that it was recorded SPECIFICALLY for TAFH. Are you sure of this? My impression was that after Mellon Collie, there were a TON of left-over songs, including covers like A Night Like This, Clones, Dreaming, etc... and these all got compiled into a leftovers-boxset. I didn't think stuff was specifically written/arranged/recorded for the boxset...?

Looks like you edited and edited this before I started replying...

Not everything on TAFH was recorded all at once during the MCIS:
- most of the Tonight Tonight single were demo tapes from 1994 (with the exception of Medellia and Tonight Tonight (reprise))
- half of the Zero single comes from the MCIS sessions (God, Tribute to Johnny) but the rest was apparently recorded afterwards in their practice space on an 8-track specifically for b-side use (Pennies, Marquis In Spades, Mouths of Babes)
- the 1979 single seems to all date from the MCIS sessions
- he Thirty Three single b-sides (Aeroplane, Last Song, Trasnformer) were all done in between touring in 1996.
- the covers on the Bullet single were specifically recorded for the boxset, which was being planned while Chamberlin was fired.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

Originally Posted by soniclovenoize

- the covers on the Bullet single were specifically recorded for the boxset, which was being planned while Chamberlin was fired.

exactly.

all other singles in the box set had enough b-sides (from all uk singles combined). bullet only had one. so they added the covers.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

Originally Posted by Reyngel

Maybe?

Just some thoughts, ha.

have you read billy's story on "take me down" in the mcis reissue liner notes?
in short: james refused to let anyone change anything about it.

so maybe it's as simple as that: one and two on the album is james' song. one and two on the reissue is what might have happened if billy had a say on it.

[Reyngel]

All good info... thanks guys. I really was just speculating. Interesting to learn more.

But, I'd also add a few things...

[Reyngel]

Originally Posted by soniclovenoize

It's about fucking time we had an interesting conversation here!


There is nothing wrong with speculation, but you should do it on fact instead of fiction.



What extra percussion are you talking about? I'm listening to them both, and the original track sounds like a programmed drum sequence, and the LICD version sounds like that same exact drum pattern with Matt Walker overdubbed onto the choruses. I know you want to believe that that the "extra guitar" is Billy, but I'd say there's an equal chance it's Iha, since, you know, he also played guitar. Also, the drum pattern you hear in the orignal is probably a programmed drum beat (as was done in Thirty Three). If it had been Jimmy, he would have been credited on the album (Matt, Flood and D'Arcy all were).


It was a contender for Siamese and ended up as a b-side for that album... The fact that it didn't make the album is not really relevant. And Corgan has said himself he took a hands-off approach to it. Just how hands off we don't know, maybe Corgan didn't play on it at all! Not sure, but I know Corgan didn't play on Believe, did he?


What? We didn't know about Blew Away or Bugg Superstar?

What's your point here? Generally the weakest songs fall to the wayside. Also James had admitted all along that it was generally Corgan's band. Which is why Corgan pushed James to do a solo album. I'd say the opposite is true from what you claim: Corgan didn't want to snuff James, so he wanted to give him room to breath. Research interviews, both Corgan and Iha both said Corgan encouraged James to make LICD.


No. They started demoing early in 97 (which is where Annie Dog comes from). The first formal sessions were in Chicago in fall 97 with brad Wood. They only recorded six or so songs before the sessions stopped. Those sessions did not pan out so well, so the band regrouped in early 1998 to rerecord anew and to clean up the basic tracks the recorded in Chicago. The bulk of Adore was done in LA in spring 1998.

So LICD was apparently finished and released just as the band relocated to LA, where the bulk of Adore was recorded. Your timeline doesn't fit.


*sigh* no see above. His album was released by the time the famous stories of those two just hanging out in the lobby were happening.



Matt Walker had quit the band before they relocated to LA in early 1998. Also Flood had nothing to do with LICD; it was produced by Jim Scott and James. The only thing Flood had to do with the album was one song... Can you guess what it was? It was "One and Two". Why? Because it was a MCIS outtake from 1995.


Why would they do that? The band didn't do it with The Aeroplane Flies High... Again, see my comment above, it was probably a drum machine.

-Maybe it's just me then, because One and Two from the reissue definitely sounds like the drums are different, especially in my headphones. While the one from Let it Come Down sounds totally stripped down. So when you say that "if it were Jimmy, he would have been credited," that's exactly my point: the mix from Let it Come Down is without Jimmy, while the one from the Mellon Collie era, the one one provided on the reissue, might be Jimmy. Especially if it was originally a Pumpkins demo from 95, as you are stating. Why, especially in 95, would a Pumpkins demo have drums from someone other than Jimmy?

-It's tough to say whether Billy or James did the electric guitar work for One and Two, I agree. But, what I do know is Billy did the electric guitar work for Blew Away, as was confirmed in 2000 during an interview with both of them in the room. The interviewer asked James about his guitar playing for Blew Away since they were touring with it at the time, and Billy explained that he had done the solo work for it for the album... and is probably why he played the solo live for the Machina tour, too.

-Where are you getting that Billy "pushed James to do a solo album?" I think it's pretty common belief that Billy has very much rewritten history to favor him as a non-stop do-gooder, martyr and sacrificial lamb, especially during the SD and MCIS eras. I certainly have never heard James support the notion that Let it Come Down was ignited by Billy's support... so if you're quoting Billy, then I might be inclined to chalk it up to a lot of the seemingly-false, albeit interesting, one-sided takes of Billy's that can be found in places like his confessions blog, etc.

-Regarding the hands-off approach by Billy, I agree with you... although I was initially responding as though you were inferring that "hands-off" meant allowing James to contribute equally to the band, which is obviously not true given the band's history. I think my point was more that considering there were 11 tracks on Gish, 13 tracks on Siamese Dream, 28 tracks on Mellon Collie, 17(originally) tracks on Adore, 15 tracks on Machina and 14 tracks on Machina 2, and only TWO of those songs with James in the driver's seat in Take Me Down and Go. I'm not counting Pisces, TAFH or the other half of Machina 2, as all of those were "extras" that "didn't fit" on the album. So, while Billy may have allowed James to be in the driver's seat for Blew Away, I count Blew Away as a song that, as you confirmed, was only relegated, by Billy, to be a throw-away from the SD sessions and left to be tossed onto Pisces with the rest of the demos and outtakes.

Personally, I've always had the feeling that Billy only included Take Me Down on Mellon Collie in order to dilute some of public's perceptions of his ego being out of control... which surely would have been even greater had the Pumpkins released a huge double-album full of 28 songs and ALL of them having Billy be the front man. And as for Go, I think the same thing applied: Billy probably didn't want to deal with the scorn of fans up in arms over the final Pumpkins album not having a little piece of Iha, especially when many of James' contributions over the years were heavily beloved. So he "allowed" it, but less as a supportive measure, and more as a selfishly insecure gesture. Think about it: James had written of Billy somewhere around Adore, and Billy basically had to beg James to stay in the band in 1999, as admitted by Billy himself. So it stands to reason that Billy lacked any real kind of support or compassion for James anyway.

[Reyngel]

Also... where are you getting your timeline for the Adore sessions? I know and agree that they began in early 97, which was my original point in that most of the work by the BAND was done before Let it Come Down. But from my understanding through interviews and that Adore documentary, it went something like this:

++The tragedies of Billy's personal life(Melvoin dying, Jimmy being fired, his Mom dying, his crazy divorce, and possibly that fan being trampled to death?) sparked the dark, inter-personal song-writing for what would eventually manifest itself into Adore... all beginning in early 97.

++The band begins demoing the post-MCIS material and even playing some songs live in 1997. From what I remember, I know Ava Adore, Eye, The End is the Beginning is the End and Blissed + Gone were experimented with live at this time. And Eye, although on the Last Highway Soundtrack, was originally a to-be Adore track that Billy reworked for a collaboration with Shaquille O'Neal after having Tear being turned down.

++By late 1997, Billy is set on his vision for the record: that it would be the antithesis of MCIS, and that it would be his personal eulogy to all that happened over the previous year. The band begins recording and gets through most of the album with the help of Flood and Alan Moulder over a 6-month period.

++By the very end of 1997 and beginning of 1998, Billy becomes overly obsessive with getting the record to sound exactly like it sounded in his head, prompting him to take over as producer of the album. This forces James and D'arcy to fly out to L.A. to Sunset Sound Studios to sit around and wait until their services were needed while Billy tinkered away as Captain of the mixing board. Meanwhile, with all of his free time in L.A., James finishes up his solo album, which was basically a collection of songs he had been working on independently throughout his years with the Pumpkins... perhaps songs that Billy didn't allow onto albums.

++In January of 1998, and continuing with his hyper-obsession with perfecting Adore, Billy begins to break down and lose focus, prompting the Viper Room show in L.A. to demo Adore arrangements to a crowd so as to seek guidance, confirmation and reassurance. Rather than having the full band play the songs, Billy elects to do them all as a solo acoustic set... while having James do his own separate solo set of a couple Let it Come Down songs as a crowd-warmer...

...which begins to support my theory that it was at this time, during Billy's reclusive, exclusive, go-it-alone stretch during Adore that James officially reaches his breaking point, prompting a discussion with Billy of his feelings about quitting the Pumpkins. I mean, just look at James' body language in the Adore documentary when being asked questions about the recording process. He's clearly beginning to feel quite a bit of tension. These feelings of his, though, probably get ignored and swept over by:

++Adore is completed and released in June of 1998, the world tour quickly ensues, followed by the U.S. charity tour.

++When everything begins to settle down, James meets with Billy to rehash the unfinished conversation of James wanting to quit the band. Billy then begs James to stay for one more album, and Billy goes and hastily wrangles up Jimmy for the last hurrah... all around Christmastime of 1998.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

didn't bc feel betrayed that james had finished let it come down behind his back?
didn't that come out fairly recently (last couple of years)?

[vajohna]

Originally Posted by soniclovenoize

Also James had admitted all along that it was generally Corgan's band. Which is why Corgan pushed James to do a solo album. I'd say the opposite is true from what you claim: Corgan didn't want to snuff James, so he wanted to give him room to breath. Research interviews, both Corgan and Iha both said Corgan encouraged James to make LICD.

The last two sentences are kinda fishy. In recent interviews, Belly seems awfully butthurt that James wouldn't take any input, criticism, or even listen to him regarding the music on Let It Come Down. Something about Belly mocking what he believed was James' persecution as "a stifled talent" at the time.

[Reyngel]

Originally Posted by Cool As Ice Cream

didn't bc feel betrayed that james had finished let it come down behind his back?
didn't that come out fairly recently (last couple of years)?

That's what I recall too... which I think further supports the fact that Billy did not, in fact, encourage James to do the album, but instead felt bitter that James would even want to do something on his own.

[vajohna]

Somehow Belly is the asshole here. That's for sure.

[Reyngel]

Originally Posted by Cool As Ice Cream

have you read billy's story on "take me down" in the mcis reissue liner notes?
in short: james refused to let anyone change anything about it.

so maybe it's as simple as that: one and two on the album is james' song. one and two on the reissue is what might have happened if billy had a say on it.

Yeah that's kind of what I'm thinking, too. And, while I actually really like James and his solo record, "Billy's version" of One and Two sounds much, much better.

[Reyngel]

So I'm listening to them both again right now, and I think even more, now, that whoever did the drums for the Let it Come Down version of One and Two is not the same drummer as the one from the Mellon Collie reissue. The Let it Come Down version actually sounds more in line with Matt Walker's style of play, and the reissue has a lot more of the power and finesse that Jimmy brought. Coincidence? Maybe. But they do sound very different...

[teh b0lly!!1]

TLDR

[soniclovenoize]

Originally Posted by Reyngel

-Maybe it's just me then, because One and Two from the reissue definitely sounds like the drums are different, especially in my headphones. While the one from Let it Come Down sounds totally stripped down. So when you say that "if it were Jimmy, he would have been credited," that's exactly my point: the mix from Let it Come Down is without Jimmy, while the one from the Mellon Collie era, the one one provided on the reissue, might be Jimmy. Especially if it was originally a Pumpkins demo from 95, as you are stating. Why, especially in 95, would a Pumpkins demo have drums from someone other than Jimmy?

Because the orignal version is a drum machine, it's not Jimmy. You can hear it on BOTH versions, but the LICD version is mixed down and understated, and James had added Matt Walkers drum track to strengthen the rhythm.

-Where are you getting that Billy "pushed James to do a solo album?" I think it's pretty common belief that Billy has very much rewritten history to favor him as a non-stop do-gooder, martyr and sacrificial lamb, especially during the SD and MCIS eras. I certainly have never heard James support the notion that Let it Come Down was ignited by Billy's support... so if you're quoting Billy, then I might be inclined to chalk it up to a lot of the seemingly-false, albeit interesting, one-sided takes of Billy's that can be found in places like his confessions blog, etc.

Original interviews from 1998, not revisionist history from 2013.

Originally Posted by Reyngel

Also... where are you getting your timeline for the Adore sessions?

spfc.org

Where are you getting your information? 2/3rds of Adore was completely recorded in LA in 1998. Are you suggesting that D'Arcy and James just simply didn't play on that material? It's not true.

++The tragedies of Billy's personal life(Melvoin dying, Jimmy being fired, his Mom dying, his crazy divorce, and possibly that fan being trampled to death?) sparked the dark, inter-personal song-writing for what would eventually manifest itself into Adore... all beginning in early 97.

OK sure.

++The band begins demoing the post-MCIS material and even playing some songs live in 1997. From what I remember, I know Ava Adore, Eye, The End is the Beginning is the End and Blissed + Gone were experimented with live at this time. And Eye, although on the Last Highway Soundtrack, was originally a to-be Adore track that Billy reworked for a collaboration with Shaquille O'Neal after having Tear being turned down.

OK sure.

++By late 1997, Billy is set on his vision for the record: that it would be the antithesis of MCIS, and that it would be his personal eulogy to all that happened over the previous year. The band begins recording and gets through most of the album with the help of Flood and Alan Moulder over a 6-month period.

Wrong, they did not get through "most of the album". Simply read the liner notes to Adore: The songs produced by Brad Wood are these Chicago-recorded songs, that needed additional work in LA. Is 6 songs "most of the album"? No.

++By the very end of 1997 and beginning of 1998, Billy becomes overly obsessive with getting the record to sound exactly like it sounded in his head, prompting him to take over as producer of the album. This forces James and D'arcy to fly out to L.A. to Sunset Sound Studios to sit around and wait until their services were needed while Billy tinkered away as Captain of the mixing board. Meanwhile, with all of his free time in L.A., James finishes up his solo album, which was basically a collection of songs he had been working on independently throughout his years with the Pumpkins... perhaps songs that Billy didn't allow onto albums.

I already explained you are incorrect. James recorded his solo album in 1997. Read the liner notes. Promotions for the album already started in 1998. Don't you remember reading it when it happened back in 1998? The songs James performed at The Viper Room show were in support for the album and we all new the songs already; in contrast, Corgan's set was all new and mostly-unheard songs (we only knew half the names).

Also, have you read Corgan's confessions? He mentioned the whole band relocated to LA to start anew. They rented out a mansion and he hoped the three of them would hang out and be a band together and work on material. Your depiction of the events is really convoluted. Corgan tried to rally them together and be more of a band. We have lots of instances where they were recording altogether in the studio. Everyone just assumes this was a Corgan solo album just because the stories of James & D'Arcy doing nothing in the lobby are fun to believe, but that didn't happen all the time. We forget the stories of the genesis of Shame, Blank Page, Let Me Give The World To You, For Martha, etc. Obviously, Corgan needed time to tinker, and the rest of the band had nothing to do during those times. But if you've ever been in a recording studio situation, that's the nature of the beast: when it's not your turn to record your instrument, then you just simply wait. Wait for the other guy to get the take and then you can all move on. It can be very boring.

My point is that Adore is as just a Corgan solo album as Gish, Siamese and Machina. The band was essentially The Billy Corgan Experience.

Originally Posted by vajohna

The last two sentences are kinda fishy. In recent interviews, Belly seems awfully butthurt that James wouldn't take any input, criticism, or even listen to him regarding the music on Let It Come Down. Something about Belly mocking what he believed was James' persecution as "a stifled talent" at the time.

As I said above, avoid revisionist 2013 history from Corgan or hazy ambiguous memories from a complacent Iha; rely on interviews from 1998.

[vajohna]

All three of the remaining Pumpkins were polishing the turd their relationships had become in 1998. What's not to believe about what's said now? They were obviously putting on a brave face for the media back in the late 90's.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

Originally Posted by vajohna

All three of the remaining Pumpkins were polishing the turd their relationships had become in 1998. What's not to believe about what's said now? They were obviously putting on a brave face for the media back in the late 90's.

obviously.
they couldn't let anyone know about how james did everything behind billy's back, and how billy was annoyed by this, to say the least. so they made up some story, and repeated it at every interview. i noticed they had a lot of these stories in '98.

[soniclovenoize]

Originally Posted by vajohna

All three of the remaining Pumpkins were polishing the turd their relationships had become in 1998. What's not to believe about what's said now? They were obviously putting on a brave face for the media back in the late 90's.

What did they specifically say now? Show me a quote by Corgan within the last year where he gives a fuck about LICD in any way?

[vajohna]

I don't fucking know. You're the one with the encyclopedic memory of a once-great band and Weezer B-sides, why don't you remember it, genius?

Go and read Belly's "confessions" during the recording of Adore. Those were fucking peachy times, yeah? He sure as shit has talked shit about the Asian one plenty in the last few years, and he has gotten specific enough to talk about the recording of Let It Come Down. How he was so butthurt that he wasn't included or asked for help in any way. That he wanted to see James succeed. You know, Billy playing the victimized child. Motherfucker has been whining about Iha since at least 2007.

[soniclovenoize]

Originally Posted by vajohna

I don't fucking know. You're the one with the encyclopedic memory of a once-great band and Weezer B-sides, why don't you remember it, genius?

lol Look how mad you are!

Go and read Belly's "confessions" during the recording of Adore.

He never mentioned LICD once in his confessions.

So what you are saying is essentially that I should ignore original interviews and only focus on the newer ones that don't exist?

[vajohna]

Sigh. "Confessions" submitted as evidence that the band were just putting on a facade for the media during '97-'98. That their relationships were a sham by that point.

Keep up.

I'm not essentially saying anything. What I am saying is that the Pumpkins, Billy specifically, put on a brave front during the era of Adore and Let It Come Down. If Billy is to be believed at all, his "confessions" indicate a band coming to pieces behind the scenes during that time. Just because I don't remember which most-recent silly interview baldy was the butthurtest in doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that I don't bookmark such things. Electronically or mentally, as it were.

I mean, really, why would a rock star notorious for being an overbearing control freak want to make the media believe everything was okay when it wasn't?

[soniclovenoize]

Originally Posted by vajohna

Sigh. "Confessions" submitted as evidence that the band were just putting on a facade for the media during '97-'98. That their relationships were a sham by that point.

Keep up.

Keep up? Hmm, weird because here's what just happened:

I said: What did they specifically say now? Show me a quote by Corgan within the last year where he gives a fuck about LICD in any way?
Then you said: Go and read Belly's "confessions" during the recording of Adore.
Then I said: He never mentioned LICD once in his confessions.

So I’ll repeat: show me an interview where Corgan talks about LICD at all specifically. Otherwise you can blow your hot air elsewhere.

[vajohna]

You know, I thought it was Matt Pinfield that the interview was with, but it was Howard Stern.

http://youtu.be/0WoahoAfIC4?t=4m30s

Just so you know, when you're sucking on my nuts, inhale through your nose because I got big ones.