Did James really stab Billy in the back?

[Mood ring]

i heard this was the case.

[years of grace]

well, you would have to ask billy that.

[*theory*]

I suppose it would depend on who you ask.

[Catherine Wheel]

That doesnt sound like James. He always seemed very loyal. I think Billy is full of shit.

[*theory*]

maybe break-ups can only go down in flames. amicable ones are tougher because usually its negative energies filling the situation and miscommunication becomes the norm, not the exception.

[Anvil Hands]

Who knows what really happened. Guess you had to be there.

I think James was tired of the drama and needed a break.

[Mood ring]

perhaps this thread should be moved to the non. im more trying to assimilate a personal situation to the breakdown of friendship between Billy and James. I guess people grow apart and stuff and it's kinda sad. even a lot sad. its just sad but a part of life.

[benjamin619]

James wasn't receiving positive attention, so he resorted to negative attention. Then, the band fell apart.

[DeviousJ]

Originally Posted by Mood ring

perhaps this thread should be moved to the non. im more trying to assimilate a personal situation to the breakdown of friendship between Billy and James. I guess people grow apart and stuff and it's kinda sad. even a lot sad. its just sad but a part of life.

yes, this is definitely General Chat material

[wpc33]

James gives a shitload of notice for his departure from SP, Billy decides to end the band once it would be James-less. Billy regrets his decision, tired of being blamed himself, Billy blames James.
No one is to blame. TSP dissolved the way 90% of bands do

[Dead]

I think it's something similar to what wpc said. Except I would blame Billy instead of saying no one is to blame. Billy didn't have to throw a fit and say That's it the band is over! and if he did then he should take responsibility for that. What a tool.

[douglas78]

i think billy and james are both in on this to make us all believe they hate each other so that when they come back to rock, we are left with our dicks in our hands and scratching our heads.

[TumoraXsault]

Originally Posted by Mood ring

Did James really stab Billy in the back?

I wonder what knife he used

[ZackZ]

Who gives a fuck about james? Let him go wear a dress and ride around in his icecream truck with somebody else at the wheel.

[Kanan Road]

james always was a little ninja so i wouldn't put it past him.

[Reyngel]

I have a feeling it was something to this extent:

1. Prior to the Arising! tour, Billy calls a band meeting with James, Darcy and Jimmy to discuss Jimmy's return, and the next steps of the band's future.

2. During the Arising! tour, D'arcy's drug use starts to affect the chemistry of the band. She shows up to some of the shows high, or drunk, or both, and leads to some heavy reprimanding by Billy due to him not wanting to have another Jimmy-repeat only weeks after the band got back together.

3. By the time the Arising! tour comes to an end in L.A., D'arcy's drug use continues to spark fights between she and Billy, and eventually, D'arcy ends up feeling that the pressure of the band is too much for her, and relays this to James.

4. Toward the end of the Machina recording sessions, D'arcy becomes fed up with the band, and Billy becomes fed up with D'arcy and her drug use. D'arcy quits the band, citing a desire to pursue interests in Hollywood.

5. D'arcy's departure negatively affects both James and Billy. James is burned emotionally via the distress of watching a close friend spiral out of control. Billy is burned personally via the failure of being able to keep the four original members together.

6. With James on D'arcy's side, a conflict arises between Billy and James in terms of how the band affects the other. James believes that maybe it truly is time to call it quits... that D'arcy's quitting is an indication of the band's eventual destruction, and that they are all different people than when the band first started. James believes that musically, not everyone is on the same page. Jimmy returns, and even then, some huge drama arises. James feels that the band had reached their end, mentioning this to Billy. He tells Billy that this will be the final album and tour for him.

7. Billy takes offense to James' decision. Billy feels that James isn't being loyal to the band, and sees his decision as a cop-out to being tough and dealing with D'arcy's departure for the sake of the band's survival. Billy, who believed in the band with all his heart, couldn't understand why the guy who found it with him couldn't remain as dedicated as he was.

8. Machina is released, as a concept album, and so begins the final leg of the Pumpkins. Billy uses the band's demise to construct a huge mystery for fans to explicate. Group signings, radio store shows and lots of internet interaction is initiated as a means to construct the finale to the Pumpkins.

9. Throughout the S+P tour, Billy and James continue to argue over each other's stance on the survival of the band. James begins to take it personal, claiming that he loves the band just as much as Billy. Billy doesn't see it that way, and they put on a happy face from show to show, masking their true feelings.

10. At the final Metro show, an altercation between James and Billy takes place. Instead of congratulating each other and being sentimenal together, Billy makes it personal again, and implies that the the reason they're playing their last show that night is because James couldn't find it in himself to hold it together. James is bitter by that sentiment. During the show, James makes it clear that it's important to thank D'arcy, despite her not being there. And at the end of show, James, still personally hurt by Billy accusing him of not loving the band, walks off stage with only a short wave goodbye to the fans, leaving Billy to dwell in the applause by himself.

11. Billy later publically claims in his blog that James was the reason why the band broke up, and that James stabbed him in the back. The truth, however, is biased. James did decide to call it quits, but it wasn't at all a stab in the back. In reality, it was Billy throwing a touchy hissy-fit, and blowing it up to be a bigger issue than it really was.

12. James, being the guy he is, refuses to respond to Billy's public accusations, and continue to remain in silence when it comes to any interviews regarding the demise of the Pumpkins.

[redrubberband]

Great post Reyngel.

[Orenthal James]

reyngel, replace "resume the pose" with "arising!" and you're good.

[douglas78]

Originally Posted by Orenthal James

reyngel, replace "resume the pose" with "arising!" and you're good.

[Kahlo]

great post James.. I mean Reyngel!

[Cool As Ice Cream]

TLDR

[teh b0lly!!1]

yeah, its just too bad he wrote that darcy became fed up with the band after the machina recording sessions were complete, while in fact billy played the great majority, if not all the bass parts on the record
darcy was out for a long time

[sosnumculfer]

james said that he would have done another album.

[wHATcOLOR]

Originally Posted by Reyngel

10. At the final Metro show, an altercation between James and Billy takes place. Instead of congratulating each other and being sentimenal together, Billy makes it personal again, and implies that the the reason they're playing their last show that night is because James couldn't find it in himself to hold it together. James is bitter by that sentiment. During the show, James makes it clear that it's important to thank D'arcy, despite her not being there. And at the end of show, James, still personally hurt by Billy accusing him of not loving the band, walks off stage with only a short wave goodbye to the fans, leaving Billy to dwell in the applause by himself.

i think a lot of what you said sounds reasonable. one large factor would probably be the years and years of bill being condescending, that's got to take its toll for sure.

as for the last show, i didn't quite get the impression that james would be hurt if bill were to accuse him of that. he was still around at the afterparty around like 4 am. true he and bill kept their distance, but it was a large room and each band member was in their own spot holding court with various fans, friends, and family that came up to them to talk..

i think james was probably more apathetic than hurt, i get the impression he was just tired of the dynamic and felt the thing had run its course

[Ronnie Eagle]

originally posted by TamoraXsault:

I wonder what knife he used

the one that had the edge of unprepared vocals.

[*theory*]

Reyngel,

that's some pretty good analysis there but Im not sure if im with you on the last one. There a couple members of APC that were bashing Billy pretty good...as if they were doing James dirty work for him. That seemed to break a threshold within BC that made him lash out publicly at James. That APC shit from Maynard and Howerdel was done long before Billy's emotives on the break-up.

[chouchou]

yeah, i think there are some interesting points in that post - however - it's written far too much in a way that favors james. it's really easy...and i think kind of tired...to point the finger at bc for everything.

[selection7]

Good read. Interesting timeline theory.

But you stated "Billy takes offense to James' decision. Billy feels that James isn't being loyal to the band".

I'd like someone to show me where Billy has ever said, or even connotated, this.

He's said the band breaking up was James' doing and that James harbored a grudge against him. He said that he didn't want people to know it came down to one person so he lied and claimed it was what all the band wanted. He's even said he was hurt by James' apathy towards the kinship they had develped throughout the blood, seat, and tears that was the Pumpkins for over a decade. But he never said James hadn't paid his dues, didn't have the right to quit, had offended him by qutting. Right? I've always assumed that sort of thing was only gossip construed by fans with overactive imaginations as I've never seen evidence otherwise.

[buttercup]

Originally Posted by douglas78

i think billy and james are both in on this to make us all believe they hate each other so that when they come back to rock, we are left with our dicks in our hands and scratching our heads.

I agree. It's all a rock 'n roll drama thing.

[Anvil Hands]

Billy and james should lock themselves in a closet and take some acid.