"I love the work he did, it’s so cool."

[Forgotten Child]

http://drownedinsound.com/in_depth/4...s-billy-corgan

DiS: When did you realise this group of songs were destined for a solo record, rather than a Smashing Pumpkins one?

Billy Corgan: It was a bit of a strange process. I was working on a Pumpkins album, but I became sort of disgusted with the whole thing, so I quit it. I wrote another group of songs, listened to them back, and thought, “OK, I want to do something with these”. I also made up my own mind, at that point, that I wasn’t going to do any more Pumpkins records. That’s when I started moving down this road, and really, I could have called it anything: I could have put it out under a different name entirely. I didn’t give that part too much thought. The whole process really began when Rick Rubin said he was interested in being involved; that’s when it became a serious thing, and the next thing I knew, I was out recording it at his studio in beautiful Malibu.

Once you’d sworn off the Pumpkins, did you figure that the next bunch of songs would be a kick against the sound of the band? This is such a sparse record.

It looks that way, but it didn’t feel that way. I think I’d gotten about as far in one direction with the band as I could go, so for me, it was like going back to the start – it wasn’t a reaction as much as it was that when you make rock music or pop music, you spend a lot of time looking at what’s going on in the world and thinking about whether or not you have anything to add to the conversation, or if it’s just that you want to stomp on something. That was my initial impetus for getting into music – I wanted to stomp all over what I was seeing, whereas this time, I’m trying to contribute to the conversation. I felt like I needed to go back to being a songwriter to make sense of what was going on in my brain.

I read that you called Rick Rubin to ask him to recommend a producer. Why not just ask him to do it himself?

I totally didn’t think it would be on his radar. For a start, I didn’t even know what I was doing at that point. I didn’t know which direction the songs were heading in, but he does these massive projects, so the idea that he would want to be part of this acoustic solo record...I didn’t think it’d even be in the same zip code as what he normally works on.

He always had a reputation for stripping things back earlier in his career, though. Were the songs like that when you took them to him, or was that his influence?

He told me he liked the feeling of the demos that I sent him, so he just wanted to start there and see where it led us. He didn’t have a destination in mind, I don’t think - he said he wanted to let the record make itself, so it wasn’t like when we were recording, we knew what would and wouldn’t be the final version. We were open to anything, and I trusted him to take it to wherever it’d have some energy behind it. I said from the beginning that I was happy to follow his lead.

The instrumental palette primarily involves piano and acoustic guitar, which is a long way away from what springs to mind when people think about the Pumpkins.

Yeah, but I’ve still done a lot of work like that in the past, so it’s not as unfamiliar as it might seem. I mean, a lot of Mellon Collie has that kind of stuff on it; in fact, if you take away the drums from that record, there’s a lot of that kind of production on it. I came in with literally just voice-and-guitar demos and, like I said, if Rick had suggested putting a sixty-piece orchestra on them, or flying to India to record them in the lotus position, I was ready to follow that. Left to my own devices, I probably would’ve added far more layers.

Do you think your sensibilities have changed over the years in terms of production?

You know, that was kind of a weird backdrop to this record. For a long time, I’ve had fans come up to me and say that they didn’t like a certain song when they first heard them, and that it took them twenty listens to realise that actually, it was a great song – it was just that they didn’t like the production, so why did I fuck it up by putting sitars on it or something? I’ve heard that a lot down the years, and I don’t take offence at it because the production is just a version, just the way you interpret the song at the time – the song itself is sacrosanct. Oftentimes, it’s something that’s influenced by what’s going on in your own life, or going on in the culture around you. That’s where all the big snare drums came from in the eighties, when even Eric Clapton had them on his records. You’re influenced by the tastes of the time, but the really good songs tend to last regardless.

It doesn’t seem like a coincidence that the last Pumpkins tour was the stripped-back In Plainsong tour, and then the next record you’ve made is so similar in style to the reinterpretations of those old songs. What made you want to tour the Pumpkins acoustically in the first place?

I guess the best way for me to answer your question faithfully is that there seemed to be an organic interest in my songwriting and my singing in that kind of stripped-down form, and that interest just wasn’t there for an electric tour. You do the math. I don’t know why it turned out that way. The core of the band for the last few years has been myself and Jeff Schroeder, and we’d sit around saying, “Well, we don’t why this is working, but we’re not going to argue”. We’d had so much difficulty with the other version of the band.

What was the issue with playing electric shows?

We’d go out with various lineups and play really good shows, playing a lot of songs that people knew, and they were just never happy. It was like it didn’t matter what you did – we could’ve stood on our heads and played every possible greatest hit, and the audiences still wouldn’t have been satisfied, whether it was because certain people weren’t there, or because they didn’t like the way I was standing, or because I’d grown older. There was always something.

Suddenly, we sort of stumbled accidentally into playing acoustic, and everybody was patting us on the back and saying, “Wow, you sound great!” I was almost suspicious about it, because I hadn’t had that level of positivity around me since probably 1997. We sold a lot of tickets and were playing to happy, smiling faces – nobody was giving us the finger and telling us to fuck off. I don’t know how we got there, but I was cool with it. We sort of fumbled our way into it, because we weren’t getting a lot of positive signals from the culture, that was for sure.

The first track on Ogilala, ‘Zowie’ - you wrote that after David Bowie died, right?

Right.

You knew and worked with him a little bit - what did he mean to you?

Well, I think that he made a commitment early on, circa 1972, that he was going to chart this very singular path, and I think he was true to it. That’s pretty inspiring, because we’re talking about a legend who did everything from Ziggy Stardust to ‘Let’s Dance’. The amount of amazing songs was just mind-boggling. So, you had this A-level talent who could have been anything – he could’ve been the next Frank Sinatra, if he’d wanted – but he chose to be a space alien. He had good times and bad times, but he never deviated from his inner faith that his vision was important. He stuck with it all the way to the end. As an artist, you’ve always got people in your ear, whispering “If only you could [insert compromise here]”. If you look at David’s path, or Neil Young’s path, you see that it’s still possible to grind out a vision that means something, and that’ll grow in time. I love those artists who knew it wasn’t a popularity contest; if you look at the arc of David’s work, there were popular times and not-so-popular times, but there was very good work in all those times.

Have you had that whisper in the ear yourself down the years?

Quite a bit, yeah. It wasn’t too long ago that I was at a wrestling show in England, and I was stood backstage with a promoter, and they were asking me why I won’t play my old albums in full. Because I don’t fucking want to play my old albums! That’s the music business’ way of telling you you’re dead. People were joking to me, “Hey, even U2 are doing it now!” Yeah, but to a fucking stadium. It’s not like anybody’s saying, “Hey, play Siamese Dream in order and we’ll come see you at the football stadium,” even if that’d be a temptation that I’d like to have.

I was wondering about the two trips you took across America, and how they informed the record. Was Ogilala written along the way?

Some of this record was written on the first trip, last year. I wrote another album on the second trip, but I haven’t recorded it yet. It’s sitting there waiting.

What inspired you take the trips and document them in the first place?

America’s this vast, confusing country, and if you stick your feet in the soil and get out on the open road, you start remembering Chuck Berry and Route 66 and the whole story of America being interwoven with rock and roll. As the country begins to move towards a more urbane focus, in terms of technologies and things like that, there’s still a lot of stories that aren’t being told, that aren’t about Elon Musk and his tunnel thing or whatever. I was raised an hour outside of Chicago, but I might as well have been 500 miles away – as far as I knew, the city was just this place way in the distance that I visited occasionally. That part of the world is one I feel I understand a little better, and when I get out there, it centres me. There’s a lot of people there that don’t care about the latest tabloid scandal, you know? It clicks me back into a bigger perspective, and a lot of my most famous songs were written about suburbia. I think that’s why they connected with a lot of people, because a lot of people live in the shadow of the big city, but you’re not there, you’re not hanging with the cool people, the people that are giving you a bad vibe because they see you as too dumb or too slow. There’s something there, in that strip mall thing, that worked for me.

Do you feel as if you’ve kept in touch with those places over the years, even as you’ve toured so many big cities and experienced a degree of fame?

I think I have, but the two things are growing apart now more than ever. You get caught up in the urbanity propaganda, which is that “We’re cooler, we’re faster, we have new phones.” As you’ve seen in the political situation here, a lot of people have suddenly stepped forward to say, “Well, actually, there’s this whole other world out here, and we don’t necessarily think in lockstep with your ideals.” It helps to remember that there’s a much bigger story. You’ve had it in the UK with Brexit. The technocracy that’s in place through these media conglomerates have shoved this message down our throats about globalism, and how we’re all going to hold hands in a big circle, and that someday we’ll all live in peace, like the past never happened.

You don’t think it’s going to go down that way?

No, I just don’t, and that doesn’t mean it has to be awful – more that you have to take it as read that not everybody is at the table. When you do, at least for me, I click into a bigger version of America which is way messier and way louder, but also has a cooler, funkier history. There’s a lot to be ashamed of, and a lot to be proud of, and if you’re willing to confront both sides of the coin, you’ll understand more about the country. I’ve always had that attitude, of not wanting to be censored or sanitised. That was true even with alternative rock, with the band. We didn’t want to be part of somebody’s perfect little indie army. We found that really distasteful.

The second trip you took, in January, was right around the time that Trump was inaugurated. Was that a coincidence, that you were going out into the sort of places that swung the election for him and talking to the people living there?

It was probably a coincidence, but that was what I was talking about all of last year. I literally would sit around tables with friends who were in the general liberal frame of mind and they would laugh at what was happening. They were missing the much bigger story going on. Call it what you want – populism, nationalism, cult of personality – these are big shifts, and they don’t come along every season. I’ll give you a perfect example; I was just in the UK doing press, and I was having a drink with a guy I’m friendly with. He said that there wasn’t one person in his social circle that voted for Brexit, and that it frightened him – you know, “How can I be living in such a bubble that I don’t know that this other population exists?” Surely that’s dangerous for democracy. On these trips, and all through the presidential election campaigns, I was seeing that there was a disconnect between media messaging and the ground reality. I’m a person who would rather know the ground reality, even if I don’t like it.

I remember on the first trip you were looking for fans to help connect you to people in those areas that might have a story to tell. How did that go?

I spoke to a lot of people. I was going to do a documentary. I put a mic in front of so many different faces, and I’d ask them what their version of the American dream was, and so many of them would say that there isn’t one. One fan set me up with his uncle, who was, like, eighty and had run a business. When somebody’s eighty years old and they’re telling you there’s no American dream, you have to respect that – how did they arrive at that perspective? I got to people from every background, because I wanted to know. I’m not saying I’m a reporter, but writing songs is a form of reportage that goes all the way back to Leadbelly singing about the flood, you know? All the way through to Dylan doing it, and Neil Young doing it.

Did becoming a father have you thinking about your roots, too?

Well, yeah. Everybody from the older generations is gone now – my mother, my father, my grandparents. My grandmother just died around three years ago, at 102. They say a lot of things when you’re a kid that you don’t understand, and suddenly, one day, you wake up and you’ve got your own kid, and you realise that you have to try and figure out what it was they were trying to tell you, because it’s valuable. Particularly in America, because we’re not as in touch with our own history here. The Chicago that I grew up in had a lot of immigrant families that lived in three generation homes; grandma’s upstairs, the kids are in the basement. That’s kind of fallen apart, and when you have this diapora of families spread all over the place, when you put your grandparents in a retirement home, you lose that sense of living history. I don’t want to forget my history – I want to be able to pass on an active family story to my son.

Are you still living in Chicago?

Yeah, and I was thinking about that a lot, too. That dovetails with the American dream, and my place within it as an artist. I can walk my own streets and feel like a bit of a ghost – I get more love in London or Tokyo than I do in my own town. So, there’s this thing of, “Why am I still here?” Am I hanging on to some ancestral idea of where home is, when it’s irrelevant? All of this stuff about America seeped into the consciousness, and the writing, but how those forces play, and how they flip into the unconscious language of music...you got me. If I knew how to do it, I’d do it all the time. Why am I singing about Civil War battles? I don’t fucking know! So it’s weird, but at least I can trace some of the influence.

‘Processional’ is the first time you’ve recorded with James Iha since he was last a part of the Pumpkins. Why was that the track to have him chip in on?

He came to visit me when I was demoing some of the songs, just to hang out, and because he was sitting there I thought, well, fuck, I’m going to play some of them to him and get some feedback. He was very encouraging, and that encounter stuck with me, so when the record was almost done, and as Rick was saying that it was my last chance to add anything else, I sent James the whole album and told him to pick whatever he wanted, so that it’d be about what he was attracted to. He picked ‘Processional’ and one other song that didn’t make the album. I love the work he did, it’s so cool.

Now that you’re on good terms with everybody from that classic lineup of the Pumpkins, is just maintaining those friendships the most important thing, before you start talking about maybe playing together again?

Well, the simple math for me is that when our personal relationships were good, we had a very effective musical one. Our disintegration was never over music, it was personal, so when those friendships fell apart, so did the band. So, the math then would be that if we ever wanted to make good music again together, you would hope that we wouldn’t make the same mistake to think that we can do that without having peace with each other. That would be the intention. Whether or not it gets there, in the way that people like to romantically draw it up in their minds – I mean, I would love to be a part of that, but I don’t have control over all the forces in play, and nor do I want to. Twenty years ago, I would’ve been trying to mash this thing forwards, because it sounded big and exciting, and now I just think, if it happens, it happens. I’m all for it, but I’m not going to make the same mistake of dictating terms.

I’m guessing any reunion would need to revolve around new music, then? It wouldn’t just be the Siamese Dream stadium tour?

[laughs] Well, first of all, we should be so lucky, and secondarily, that’s what interests me – that we go back to being a working band. I’m not into the Madame Tussauds version of the band. I’d like to go back to being in a working band, and if that meant one record every five years, great. If it meant one record every ten years, great. At least we’d be making music, and doing so for the right reasons. I’d just like to go back to being a working organisation, and if it was just about flipping one switch, I’d flip it, but there’s other things that need to happen.

What about the future for Ogilala? Do you plan to tour it for a while?

I don’t know. I mean, European promoters have been really unfriendly with me in the past few years. Everything I’ve pushed forward has had literally no interest. Hopefully, the record will be well enough received that there would be a demand. Rock and roll works best when it’s an easy conversation, when you don’t have to twist somebody’s arm to get shows booked, you know? I’ve played so few shows in the UK in particular in the last few years, it’s not even funny. I think it’s one show in four years. It’s strange that there’s been no interest after that amount of time...maybe you can put in a good word.

[Ram27]

I’m going to play some of them to him and get some feedback. He was very encouraging, and that encounter stuck with me

awwww

i remember the story about james playing songs he wrote for bill in the 80s, bill was a dick and pissed off iha and they didn't speak for a while

[Grox]

lol dude got bill's age wrong in the first sentence

[bigoltitties]

Hasn't played Ireland in 10 years. Disgraceful. Can absolutely guarantee that it would sell out.

[Forgotten Child]

Originally Posted by bigoltitties

Hasn't played Ireland in 10 years. Disgraceful. Can absolutely guarantee that it would sell out.

I was expecting him to play at least one gig in Dublin with the In Plainsong tour, I'm sure he would fill-up a place like The Olympia (which is very similar in size and style to Koko in London) or The Academy. I had to fly to London to see the pumpkins in 2015 [?].

[East Rocket]

"Everybody from the older generations is gone now – my mother, my father, my grandparents."

Billy's dad died? When?

[Funbags]

He said on Stern that he's not talking to Bill Sr. because he doesn't care about Augie Jup.

Also; I'm guessing Iha will make an appearance in LA.

[T&T]

look how healthy billy is doing, his dad is dead to him. LOL.

[Pizza Club]

Originally Posted by Funbags

Also; I'm guessing Iha will make an appearance in LA.

APC is on tour

[teh b0lly!!1]

Originally Posted by T&T

look how healthy billy is doing, his dad is dead to him. LOL.

tbh that probably IS healthy. his father sounds like a real piece of shit

[FoolofaTook]

what'd your father say to you when he reached right through you? did he say the things that he had learned from his father, too? so when do you become your own you become your own you? or are you just a shadow of something more

we are chinese boxes equal parts present and past where do I begin and end up? saw those old eyes staring right back at me

so tell me what you need I'll be watching out for you there are no enemies only dangerous friends you grew up very fast I didn't think I'd miss a thing 'cause nothing ever lasts

a wise old man a wise young fool a wise young man a wise old fool

try to understand (a wise old man, a wise young fool) (notice me, comfort me, understand me) just try to understand (a wise old man, a wise young fool) (notice me, comfort me, understand me)

what'd your father say to you to turn you cold? father never quite grew up he just grew old and if I was to say to you you know I love him still would you think less of me for hating me?

we are chinese boxes equal parts present and past we are so unconscious saw those old eyes staring right back at me

so try to understand I'm just like you, and you me exactly who I am might escape you always the fortunes of a man are the debts of the son, always

a wise old man a wise young fool a wise young man a wise old fool

[FoolofaTook]

I <3 Methusela

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1

tbh that probably IS healthy. his father sounds like a real piece of shit

agree

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

I <3 Methusela

agree

[spliff0328]

I wanna hear the 2nd song he recorded with Iha that didn't make the album. Knowing Corgan, it's probably better than most of the songs on the album.

[Ram27]

absolutely agreed

[Corgan's Bluff]

Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1

tbh that probably IS healthy. his father sounds like a real piece of shit

The drugs made him...

[teh b0lly!!1]

let's all agree to agree or disagree

but preferably agree

[FoolofaTook]

The lyrics on Towers are transcendent:

Nobody knows you
even if they pretend to
they're all sure they're all so clever

[FoolofaTook]

truth is rare as ivory
the truth is in their pure deceit
blessed in your naivete

[brothahi4L]

Hi Kids! I haven´t listened to processional on headphones yet. But honestly which part did IHA play? I don´t hear a second guitar - Did he play the acoustic main part? I guess not - So please help me hear IHas part

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by brothahi4L

I haven´t

god dammit what did I just tell you in the other thread, brothahi4L? are you fucking ignoring me?

[Forgotten Child]

Originally Posted by brothahi4L

help me hear IHas part

[FoolofaTook]

Better shape up bro. He's a mod you know.

Be careful.

[Shadaloo]

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

I <3 Methusela

Fuck yeah

[brothahi4L]

I am really sorry. Did I write incorrectly? Obviously I don't get the problem? I just wanted to ask a question.

[Ram27]

aww, don't worry. it's just the netphorian culture

yeah i can't hear the part either. maybe the little piano notes?

[Corgan's Bluff]

Originally Posted by brothahi4L

I am really sorry. Did I write incorrectly? Obviously I don't get the problem? I just wanted to ask a question.

Hi brotha? Obviously you are "funny" enough to get out...

[Funbags]

Originally Posted by Pizza Club

APC is on tour

Whoa! I didn't even realize they had an album out!

I suppose everyone's doing their own thing before getting back together next year.

[myosis]

the james part seems to be during the chorus

[fuzzyroes]

Cool to hear Corgan sounding content and clear headed.