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03-05-2014, 04:33 AM | #181 |
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i really don't think it's inherently awful to believe in property rights, to be the sole soveriegn authority of the land you own
of course PROPERTY IS THEFT but i'm just putting that aside for a moment here to play psuedo devil's advocate but i really do think you guys are trying to bring the specifics of the act that Racist ol' Ron Paul doesn't like with the idea jczeroman is asking questions about. i'd like to also take the time to point out that colin hasn't exactly endorsed anything concrete but he has repeatedly reinforced unequivocably that the specific legalities of this particular act, and property rights in general, is because we can't trust humans not to be tribal and we really can't. just like we can't trust anyone not to use free speech to hurl abuse at homosexuals or women or arabs or blacks or whatever i'd like to point out that not having a concrete position but asking questions of the interrogator is a pretty standard philosophical technique, and it shows that someone is a lot less rigid then you think he might be i think Last edited by Trotskilicious : 03-05-2014 at 04:39 AM. |
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03-05-2014, 04:37 AM | #182 |
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Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship.
Posts: 39,439
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i mean we could be like germany wehre the government actively censors public hate speech of all kinds but i really don't think we want that at all
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03-05-2014, 08:40 AM | #183 |
huh
Posts: 62,456
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So apparently this hinges on me not answering your suicide analogy. But I did. What legal punishment would you suggest for it?
If you can't figure out how to deploy a single decent analogy it might be because your point sucks. We can all be in favor of rights that if taken to certain extremes cause harm. That's why we (FUCKING) make laws that make taking them to extremes illegal. Like with you know the civil rights act and laws against drunk driving and beating your wife. You have yet to make any sort of convincing argument as to why not supporting the civil rights act is not inherently racist. You don't think it's racist because you employ the simpleminded view that anything short of "black people are less than" can be sheltered by a belief in the importance of property rights. It is, in fact, racism. It makes libertarians sad and defensive to be made aware of that but that's just how it is. |
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03-05-2014, 08:47 AM | #184 |
huh
Posts: 62,456
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And please give me an example of speech being as harmful as a place of public accommodation denying service to someone based on race or sexual orientation.
If a god hates fags sign is benign I really don't know what you have in mind. Gay children are in some cases significantly damaged by growing up in areas where anti-gay rhetoric is prevalent. But how do you legislate that away? You can't. Legislating discrimination against black people away is relatively simple by comparison. We've done it already. Obviously it still happens but it's against the law which is a pretty huge step. Protecting speech is more important than protecting a business's right to discriminate based on race. When you open a business, you are subjecting yourself to all kinds of regulation for the exchange of the community being made available to you to patronize your business. Speech is not analogous. |
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03-05-2014, 09:06 AM | #185 |
huh
Posts: 62,456
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and shit we already regulate speech probably more than property rights in some respects. all sorts of time/place/manner restrictions are in place that most people don't really take issue with.
all rights are and should be subject to some level of regulation. if you're absolutist about a business owner's right to discriminate against a black person for being black while purporting to operate in the public sphere as a public business, you are, on some level, racist. that is my point. it has not at all been refuted. |
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03-05-2014, 10:59 PM | #186 | |
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Quote:
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03-05-2014, 11:01 PM | #187 | |
Registered User
Location: In my house.
Posts: 14,464
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Quote:
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03-05-2014, 11:03 PM | #188 | |
Registered User
Location: In my house.
Posts: 14,464
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Quote:
This is EXACTLY why this discussion is going nowhere. You think (and I mentioned this at the very beginning of the discussion) that your point is a priori and it isn't. |
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03-05-2014, 11:08 PM | #189 | |
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Quote:
For the record, I think both those ideas are silly, but surely you are willing to acknowledges that someone can have motivations for 'property rights' without it having anything to do with desiring racist outcomes? You would be right to call such ideas ignorant, but I don't see how you can call them racist. Sometimes, Eulogy, people are just wrong or ignorant or idealists. You cannot assume that they are always racists. |
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03-05-2014, 11:10 PM | #190 |
Registered User
Location: In my house.
Posts: 14,464
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03-05-2014, 11:18 PM | #191 | |
huh
Posts: 62,456
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Quote:
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03-05-2014, 11:20 PM | #192 | |||
huh
Posts: 62,456
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Quote:
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this is exhausting. |
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03-05-2014, 11:23 PM | #193 |
huh
Posts: 62,456
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you're basically saying that someone supporting the right to discriminate against black people for being black isn't necessarily racist.
either they are too stupid to be taken seriously or they are racist. their idea, regardless of who is holding it, is racist. |
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03-05-2014, 11:23 PM | #194 |
huh
Posts: 62,456
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as i have said, libertarians get sad and defensive when confronted with the idea that their worldview is inherently racist.
it's an inconvenient truth, i know. but it is the truth. |
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03-05-2014, 11:39 PM | #195 |
huh
Posts: 62,456
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and i guess you have abandoned the speech analogy because it's nonsensical
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03-05-2014, 11:45 PM | #196 |
Registered User
Location: In my house.
Posts: 14,464
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Ok, I am complete moron for attempting to pursue this conversation. I genuinely believed that we could agree on basic logic, but we can't even get there because you cannot get over your dislike for 'libertarianism' and you continued insistence upon bringing it into this discussion for some reason despite it having no relevance to any position advocated in this thread by any of its participants. I suspect, but of course cannot prove, that you will not approach the logical questions because you fear that this will threaten your worldview, which seems to be based upon practical consequences rather than ideals and/or principles (not saying that is good or bad, but definitely apples and oranges).
I am left to conclude from this experience that despite it being entirely logically untenable, the argument that someone is inherently and automatically racist because they support an 'absolutist' view of property rights will sell with even reasonably clever people like Eulogy. |
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03-05-2014, 11:47 PM | #197 |
huh
Posts: 62,456
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already anticipated your response
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03-05-2014, 11:48 PM | #198 |
huh
Posts: 62,456
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thinking it should be someone's right to discriminate on the basis of race is racist
this is not a crazy thought. if you think you can refute it, please do. |
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03-05-2014, 11:50 PM | #199 |
huh
Posts: 62,456
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and also, what "logical questions" have i not answered? whether someone can support a right without supporting everything that flows from it? i've answered it several times.
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03-05-2014, 11:53 PM | #200 |
huh
Posts: 62,456
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and again, i suppose you could quibble and say that a person that holds that view is not racist. but the view in question is undoubtedly racist.
can you handle that distinction? |
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03-05-2014, 11:57 PM | #201 |
huh
Posts: 62,456
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also you keep jumping around. you said i was obviously wrong because i didn't address your suicide analogy... and then i did, and then.... crickets. then you say your shitty analogies didn't matter anyway.
goal post moving is apparently a specialty of yours. |
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03-06-2014, 12:29 AM | #202 |
Banned
Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship.
Posts: 39,439
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eulogy, c'maaaaaaaaaaaaaan
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03-06-2014, 12:39 AM | #203 |
Minion of Satan
Location: bye
Posts: 7,266
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Who Exactly Is Our 2016 Candidates Though
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03-06-2014, 01:03 AM | #204 |
The Man of Tomorrow
Posts: 26,965
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Rand Paul
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03-06-2014, 01:03 AM | #205 |
Banned
Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship.
Posts: 39,439
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corganist, eulogy, and jczeroman
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03-06-2014, 01:03 AM | #206 |
Banned
Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship.
Posts: 39,439
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i dunno about you guys but i'm writing in GOVERNOR SANDWICHES
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03-06-2014, 07:42 AM | #207 |
huh
Posts: 62,456
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03-06-2014, 03:24 PM | #208 |
Brazilian Blouselord
Location: heavy metal pool party
Posts: 35,781
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I'm anti union but pro ham sandwich.
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03-14-2014, 01:22 AM | #209 |
Immortal
Posts: 25,684
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Thanks Paul Ryan for fucking yourself 2 years early
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03-14-2014, 03:07 AM | #210 |
The Man of Tomorrow
Posts: 26,965
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not really
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