Universal Healthcare is Wonderful and Will Ensure Better Health care for everyone

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

boo hoo people exercised free speech, wah wah

i'd expect someone like you to support people like this since you do the same thing here

also i recall very clearly that you bitch plenty about leftist causes going out in the street and doing the exact same thing

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

i'd expect someone like you to support people like this since you do the same thing here

also i recall very clearly that you bitch plenty about leftist causes going out in the street and doing the exact same thing

Untrue. I always support the right to protest. It's a basic American right that now we're starting to put into "protest areas" which get no where near the media or the people involved.

[Future Boy]

Ive given the thing up for dead, but what exactly are these guys out there trying to sell, theres no set bill yet, right?

[28if]

This protesting shit is getting out of control. These people are either severely misinformed or just hateful people.

It's not even about health care anymore, it's just poor white people getting pissed off because there's a black guy in the white house. "SOCIALISM! COMMUNISM! RUSSIAN INVASION!" These people obviously have no idea what the word socialism actually means. Fuck this shit!

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by 28if

This protesting shit is getting out of control. These people are either severely misinformed or just hateful people.

It's not even about health care anymore, it's just poor white people getting pissed off because there's a black guy in the white house. "SOCIALISM! COMMUNISM! RUSSIAN INVASION!" These people obviously have no idea what the word socialism actually means. Fuck this shit!

You must be severely misinformed or just hateful to believe that the only criticism of the national healthcare plan is from bitter white people who hate the blacks.

[28if]

Uh, did I say that? I'm talking about the fuckers protesting with guns outside town halls.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

You must be severely misinformed or just hateful to believe that the only criticism of the national healthcare plan is from bitter white people who hate the blacks.

He didn't say that.

The most vocal people do indeed seem to be severely misinformed and more likely to be pissed off about a black democrat in office than anything else. Are there people with legitimate concerns? Of course. But they're being drowned out by the nutjobs. As someone who I assume has some of these legitimate beefs, you should be more pissed off by these people than most.

[Eulogy]

*sob*I want*sniffle*my*sob*AMERICA BACK!

[Corganist]

I have not seen one of these "nutjobs" say anything that my suggest they have a problem with a "black democrat" in the White House. Yet, it's not only been mentioned, but repeated in this thread. Where is this stuff coming from? If it is really a problem with Obama that's driving these people to protest, why can't it just be because he's a democrat? Why the jump to assume that race plays any part whatsoever?

Whether these protesters are nutjobs or not, the left is playing a dangerous game in assuming that all of the opposition they're getting is all being generated by the vast right wing conspiracy.

[28if]

Because a lot of it IS racially motivated. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just not in tune with the reality of poor, white America.

[Eulogy]

and especially not poor, white, southern america.

look, clearly not all opponents of health care reform are racists. they don't all think obama is a nazi...or a fascist...or socialist? whatever the fuck the current nonsensical meme is. they aren't all distressed about their america being taken away from them. but as i already said, the ones who do think this way are grabbing all of the attention and are being encouraged by lobbying firms and GOP politicians. there is a debate to be had. and one side just doesn't want to have it.

you may say that the "librul media" is giving these nuts all the attention. and to a point that is an unfortunate truth. but they're the only people the conservative media/politicians are paying attention to as well.

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by 28if

Because a lot of it IS racially motivated. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just not in tune with the reality of poor, white America.

Do you have anything other than stereotyping to base that on? It sounds like you're pulling this completely out of your ass.

And for that matter, whoever said these protesters were poor? Ostensibly the people who would be upset about government health care are people who can at least afford insurance that they like already.

[Eulogy]

i can't really argue with your reasoning. i could be wrong.

but i'm trusting my intuition on this one. when there are pictures of obama as an african witch doctor with a bone through his nose being circulated by local party leaders with allusions to the soviet union to go with it....and someone lynching a congressman (even though he's white) in effigy...and people spray painting swastikas on congressmen's offices...it just adds somewhat of a racial tint to everything. doesn't it? and we cannot pretend that our society is beautifully post-racial. clearly, and i would hope you can bring yourself to admit this without me having to show you a poll detailing how many racists there are in america, there are people who do not want a black man in the white house. and clearly, some of them will take a debate over a big issue like health care as an opportunity to voice their disapproval. this is not all that difficult to comprehend.

like i said, this isn't everyone. but it's the group that's hogging the attention and distracting from debate.

[Eulogy]

i mean shit, corganist. you're not an idiot. are you happy about what's going on at these town halls? wouldn't you rather have conservatives like yourself going and calmly asking good questions about health care? instead of clueless idiots yelling shit like "I'M SCARED OF OBAMA! WE'RE ALL SCARED OF OBAMA! YOU NEED TO WATCH GLENN BECK!!!"

come the fuck on.

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

and especially not poor, white, southern america.

I think poor, white, southern America is more my scene than most people here. There may be some racial resentment of Obama, no doubt. But it doesn't bleed into every little policy choice people take. People didn't decide government spending and universal healthcare were bad ideas because a black man happens to be president. The very idea is insulting.

look, clearly not all opponents of health care reform are racists. they don't all think obama is a nazi...or a fascist...or socialist? whatever the fuck the current nonsensical meme is. they aren't all distressed about their america being taken away from them. but as i already said, the ones who do think this way are grabbing all of the attention and are being encouraged by lobbying firms and GOP politicians. there is a debate to be had. and one side just doesn't want to have it.

you may say that the "librul media" is giving these nuts all the attention. and to a point that is an unfortunate truth. but they're the only people the conservative media/politicians are paying attention to as well.

The story isn't necessarily what these vocal protesters say or do. It's the fact that the Dems have been so woefully unable to deal with them in anything resembling an intelligent manner. They could shut up a great deal of the protesters just by reading the bill (or just saying they did, for crying out loud) and prove that they're not trying to sell snake oil. Instead, the Dems have tried to marginalize these people, called them un-American, and suggested that they're all GOP operatives.

It's Joe the Plumber all over again. The Dems MO is always "attack first, ask questions later" when it comes to regular people questioning their policies. Sure, sometimes they luck out and can tear down the questioners. But still, all the regular folks with legitimate concerns see just how dissent gets treated by the left. You can't pretend that this is a winning strategy for the left, regardless of whether these vocal protesters are GOP operatives or what have you.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

The most vocal people do indeed seem to be severely misinformed and more likely to be pissed off about a black democrat in office than anything else.

No, those are the people on the news, because that's who the media chooses to show. Also really at what point do you just assume they're racists?

[Nimrod's Son]

Alren Specter's nationally broadcast town hall:
TheHill.com - Raucous Specter town hall turns into TV event

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

i mean shit, corganist. you're not an idiot. are you happy about what's going on at these town halls? wouldn't you rather have conservatives like yourself going and calmly asking good questions about health care? instead of clueless idiots yelling shit like "I'M SCARED OF OBAMA! WE'RE ALL SCARED OF OBAMA! YOU NEED TO WATCH GLENN BECK!!!"

come the fuck on.

I have no doubt that the crazies show up in full force for these things, and they do make their whole side look bad. But both sides have that to deal with, and I just didn't see a similar amount of handwringing about the crazies who populated all the Iraq protests in years past. How many Bush effigies do you suppose have been lynched and/or burned since 2001?

As for the town halls, I don't necessarily have much problem with what's been going on at them. It'd be nice if everyone could have a nice civil debate on the issues...but that's never really been the way of American public discourse, has it? I mean, this country has a tradition that includes protesting taxes by grabbing the tax collector and tarring and feathering him. We've come a long way since then, but we haven't come that far. And personally, I think a rowdy and relatively uncontrolled crowd is a lot truer to the "town hall" format than the sterilized, carefully hand-picked question and answer session we usually get.

Would I like to see a little more intelligence and a lot less ranting? Yes. But from what I've seen thus far, at least some of the ranting is justified.

[J.H.]

Originally Posted by 28if

Because a lot of it IS racially motivated. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just not in tune with the reality of poor, white America.

That's far from the mark.

First, does anyone actually believe that at present there are 44 million uninsured Americans who want health insurance and absolutely cannot afford it?

It's not true.

This health care flap is a proxy for a debate about the correct level of government intervention in the economy and personal life. In purchasing banks, motor companies and insurance companies over the past year, the federal government has taken an unprecedented stake in the economy. Meanwhile, the national unemployment rate is 9.4% (the real level is closer to 15%) and a new wave of mortgage defaults is on the horizon.

Were President Obama to bring the economy back from this precipice, he would inspire loads of genuine confidence and be fondly remembered for all time as the greatest president in modern history. The mint would begin striking his likeness on coins before the current term is up. In his second term, he would pass health care reform without opposition, like Tom Brady marching down the field in the two minute drill.

I have little -- if any -- approbation for how these protesters have been expressing themselves lately. I also think their noise-making at least comes from a place of valid concern; pity they aren't better expressing it. But to write off their views as racist or ignorant is to be missing out entirely on the debate.

When you have a bias toward one side, whichever, sometimes you have to go looking for the substance of the opposing argument - you cannot expect that it will come directly to you. That's what it means to biased; from such a porch, even legitimate concerns are easily overlooked.

[28if]

Originally Posted by Corganist

I think poor, white, southern America is more my scene than most people here. There may be some racial resentment of Obama, no doubt. But it doesn't bleed into every little policy choice people take.

You obviously do not understand racism at all. Nobody labels themself a "racist," it's just a subconscious bias/hatred that DOES permeate their every decision or belief.

Originally Posted by Corganist

People didn't decide government spending and universal healthcare were bad ideas because a black man happens to be president. The very idea is insulting.

The thing is, they DID. Maybe not consciously, but it happens and has happened. Your denial of this fact displays your immense disconnect from the reality of American culture. A lot of these people think Obama is a MUSLIM for crying out loud. They will reject every one of his policies because they are scared of what he is doing to their country. They have this false belief that the Constitution was founded on these insane nonexistent Christian principles and they think Obama is undermining them. It's ridiculous, but it's true.

[J.H.]

The independent voters, who elected him but do not support his health care reform, are racist?

[J.H.]

Democrats have a filibuster proof majority and still cannot pass this legislation.

And it's because of racist rednecks?

Democrats could pass a bill switching the names of colors red and green, and no one could stop them. But rather than admit there are genuine concerns about this bill, you explain the issue with racism. Yet racism clearly does not explain why universal health care is not a reality, at present.

Maybe the congressmen are racists, too. What do you think?

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by 28if

You obviously do not understand racism at all. Nobody labels themself a "racist," it's just a subconscious bias/hatred that DOES permeate their every decision or belief.

But they actually have to be racist before racism can permeate their every decision and belief. You have shown no reason whatsoever to back up your assertion that race is an issue here. "It just is," is not the right answer.

The thing is, they DID. Maybe not consciously, but it happens and has happened. Your denial of this fact displays your immense disconnect from the reality of American culture. A lot of these people think Obama is a MUSLIM for crying out loud. They will reject every one of his policies because they are scared of what he is doing to their country. They have this false belief that the Constitution was founded on these insane nonexistent Christian principles and they think Obama is undermining them. It's ridiculous, but it's true.

Maybe I'm wrong on this one, but haven't most of these protesters been showing up at town halls being held by WHITE democratic congresspersons? Your attempt to shoehorn this issue into the racism box by bringing up non sequiturs like the "Obama is a Muslim" crowd is getting ridiculous. I'm not a racist, so maybe I can't get into the mindset well enough, but I don't see how yelling at old white man Arlen Specter about the shortcomings of the health care bill is supposed to get across a deep seeded racial hatred of Barack Obama.

[28if]

Originally Posted by J.H.

The independent voters, who elected him but do not support his health care reform, are racist?

I repeat (again), that is not what I said. I think a lot of the screaming masses at the recent town hall meetings are motivated by racism, whether consciously or not.

Originally Posted by Corganist

But they actually have to be racist before racism can permeate their every decision and belief. You have shown no reason whatsoever to back up your assertion that race is an issue here. "It just is," is not the right answer.

Maybe I'm wrong on this one, but haven't most of these protesters been showing up at town halls being held by WHITE democratic congresspersons? Your attempt to shoehorn this issue into the racism box by bringing up non sequiturs like the "Obama is a Muslim" crowd is getting ridiculous. I'm not a racist, so maybe I can't get into the mindset well enough, but I don't see how yelling at old white man Arlen Specter about the shortcomings of the health care bill is supposed to get across a deep seeded racial hatred of Barack Obama.

I'm not attempting to shoehorn anything. Race was one point of my OP on this page, you just took off with it.

[ravenguy2000]

Originally Posted by J.H.

And it's because of racist rednecks?

It's because our government should serve to protect voters from corporations when in reality serves to protect corporations from voters. Much of the debate is racially charged, which is interesting but pretty incidental to the overall picture. It really has more to do with class but we cling fast to our American mythology that requires us to pretend that we live in a classless society, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, etc so race ends up being a proxy for class much of the time.

Bottom line is our health care system is a disaster but there's no (or little) political will the change it. That's the death of it right there whether or not someone comes up with a good bill.

[Gish08]

At the rate this debate (or lack thereof) is going, Democrats are fucked when it comes to health care. If they can't have some kind of positive impact and keep trying anyway, they're going to lose a considerable amount of seats in 2010 and Obama's reputation will be severely damaged.

The unfortunate thing is that these people are totally misinformed and are spewing blind angst from town to town. It doesn't bode well for Congress, the President, the state of health care (whether you like it or not) and so many people who are getting put on the backburner because a real conversation about reform is being tainted by mostly old stupid people.

Even with a majority in the House and Senate, Obama will still likely pull the plug on legitimate reform just like Clinton did because it doesn't poll well with Americans.

All of the statements being made about reform and how it makes the government too intrusive is nowhere in the four bills that are floating around Congress right now. Right-wingers can go eat a dick.

[Corganist]

At what point do the Dems realize that it's just possible that the reason their health care reform ideas are unpopular is because they are bad ideas (or good ideas being promoted very badly) and not because more than half the country are drooling racist morons?

I mean, again, most people supporting this stuff (and to be fair, those opposing it as well) haven't even read the bill, much less can they explain what's in it. The protesting is not coming from people being "misinformed" about the bill. It's from people on both sides being "uninformed." At least the people against the bill have an excuse for being uninformed. They didn't write the thing. What is the excuse for all of these clueless congressional democrats?

[28if]

Originally Posted by Gish08

At the rate this debate (or lack thereof) is going, Democrats are fucked when it comes to health care. If they can't have some kind of positive impact and keep trying anyway, they're going to lose a considerable amount of seats in 2010 and Obama's reputation will be severely damaged.

The unfortunate thing is that these people are totally misinformed and are spewing blind angst from town to town. It doesn't bode well for Congress, the President, the state of health care (whether you like it or not) and so many people who are getting put on the backburner because a real conversation about reform is being tainted by mostly old stupid people.

Even with a majority in the House and Senate, Obama will still likely pull the plug on legitimate reform just like Clinton did because it doesn't poll well with Americans.

All of the statements being made about reform and how it makes the government too intrusive is nowhere in the four bills that are floating around Congress right now. Right-wingers can go eat a dick.

I think it's going to pass and the Republicans are going to end up fucking themselves over again. I guess we'll see.

[Gish08]

Originally Posted by Corganist

At what point do the Dems realize that it's just possible that the reason their health care reform ideas are unpopular is because they are bad ideas (or good ideas being promoted very badly) and not because more than half the country are drooling racist morons?

They're good ideas being promoted very badly if anything. And all of the noise coming from people who only serve one purpose, and that is to obstruct, does not help the situation.

Moderate Democrats (Conservatives in any other place but UAE or something, but whatever) did not help the start of this initiative. It gave Republicans more confidence and people on the ground opposed to it even more pride. Not that they're solely to blame, but behind closed doors, I think these people will be the biggest challenge to those in Congress who favor reform. Public opinion dropping does not help their cause, either.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Gish08

Moderate Democrats (Conservatives in any other place but UAE or something, but whatever) did not help the start of this initiative. .

Man you really have a hardon for every country but the US don't you