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Old 11-10-2012, 01:22 AM   #151
T&T
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grunge was hardly a music genre, it was a fashion statement.
20yr olds singing embarrassing things marketed to sell stuff to teens
"I'm never alone, I'm alone all the time"


 
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Old 11-10-2012, 09:53 AM   #152
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You pretty much just summed up Zeitgeist and Oceania both.
Zeitgeist did suck.

Oceania's music is not tedious and his voice doesn't suck.

 
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Old 11-10-2012, 10:35 AM   #153
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:08 AM   #154
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I still don't get people who think Oceania is better than Zeitgeist.

Zeitgeist is miles ahead of Oceania. Jimmy's drumming, better guitar work and guitar tone (Oceania has the worst guitar sound BC has ever used), better songs overall. The main problem with Zeitgeist is that the vocals are far too loud. I never thought BC would release a coaster, but that's what Oceania is.

 
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:37 AM   #155
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Old 11-11-2012, 02:51 AM   #156
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I posted an insightful comment about grunge
and a funny picture. I'd appreciate some feedback on my posting skills gys.

 
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Old 11-11-2012, 03:01 AM   #157
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you suck go to hell

 
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Old 11-11-2012, 03:08 AM   #158
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Who said anything about grunge? And the only person asking for feedback about their posting skilllz here is you.

 
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Old 11-11-2012, 04:35 AM   #159
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:49 AM   #160
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You know that Billy lowered your standards when you enjoy an interview just because it does not contain any whining or pseudo-intellectual talk about culture and business models.

Also, that vinyl looks sweet.

 
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Old 11-11-2012, 01:02 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by houseofglass11 View Post
I still don't get people who think Oceania is better than Zeitgeist.

Zeitgeist is miles ahead of Oceania. Jimmy's drumming, better guitar work and guitar tone (Oceania has the worst guitar sound BC has ever used), better songs overall. The main problem with Zeitgeist is that the vocals are far too loud. I never thought BC would release a coaster, but that's what Oceania is.
Zeitgeist miles ahead of Oceania? Hahaha, Zeitgeist is one of the worst albums ever made, in my opinion. The drums are good but are mixed terribly and seem disconnected from the songs. The guitar work sounds terrible and so many of the songs just sound cheap and tacked together. So many songs on Z are inexcusable, like Pomp and Circumstance or For God and Country. The flow is inexcusable. The production is terrible. Corgan's vocals are inexcusably terrible...the jackals lick their balls...Billy choir...terrible lyrics...too loud...horrendous production...terrible artwork...terrible marketing...

Just about NOTHING from the Z era except Tarantula and Stellar was good.

The fact that people are stupid enough to think Z is better is proof that nostalgia just makes everything seem better.

 
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:23 AM   #162
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You know that Billy lowered your standards when you enjoy an interview just because it does not contain any whining or pseudo-intellectual talk about culture and business models.
Someone needs to punch him the next time the word "consumer" "business model" "brand" and "Smashing Pumpkins" are mentioned in the same sentence. Especially when it's followed with garbage about how he's a real artist and then complains about everyone else cashing in.

 
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:41 AM   #163
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Zeitgeist miles ahead of Oceania? Hahaha, Zeitgeist is one of the worst albums ever made, in my opinion. The drums are good but are mixed terribly and seem disconnected from the songs. The guitar work sounds terrible and so many of the songs just sound cheap and tacked together. So many songs on Z are inexcusable, like Pomp and Circumstance or For God and Country. The flow is inexcusable. The production is terrible. Corgan's vocals are inexcusably terrible...the jackals lick their balls...Billy choir...terrible lyrics...too loud...horrendous production...terrible artwork...terrible marketing...

Just about NOTHING from the Z era except Tarantula and Stellar was good.

The fact that people are stupid enough to think Z is better is proof that nostalgia just makes everything seem better.
You sure are one self-righteous little twat.

The guitar work on Zeitgeist is quite good so I don't know what you're on about there. Yes, the mixing isn't the greatest but I already fucking said that.

No good songs on Zeitgeist and worst album of all time? Yeah right, you're off your rocker man.

Doomsday Clock (killer fucking riff), Bleeding the Orchid (great atmosphere), That's The Way My Love Is (beautiful song all around), Tarantula (dumb rock song but killer guitar solo), United States (repetitive but Jimmy's drums are awesome), Bring the Light (amazing guitar solo with the Queen-esque guitar symphony), Come On Let's Go (sounds like Zwan, catchy riff)

And Pomp and Circumstance is a beautiful song. Sounds like a lost Adore track almost.

How can anyone be stupid enough to like it? There's nothing stupid about recognizing a good song when you hear one. I wonder the opposite about fucks like you on netphoria with sand in your vag...how could you hate that album so much?

Oceania is a MUCH weaker album. The guitar tone is awful throughout the whole album. The synths are terribly cheesy. Clunky drumming from Byrne. And BC's vocals are weak throughout the whole album.

 
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:30 AM   #164
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does anyone else giggle when people get uptight and feel they have to defend Zeitgeist??

 
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:53 AM   #165
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I think that Zeitgeist is good, but very flawed and ultimatively disappointing for a Pumpkins fan. So yes, it is strange to devote that much energy to defending it. However, the Zeitgeist/Oceania debate is a lot about the direction of the band, and I disagree with claims that Oceania is the true comeback. Oceania may not do many things completely wrong, but it is so heart achingly mediocre and lacking a vision. I had the feeling that Billy and Jimmy were at least trying hard when they worked on Zeitgeist, and in some of the songs I feel real inspiration.

To get back to King Animal. It is not a magnificent album - while it is not a lame rehash of old Soundgarden ideas, the only track that is truly novel is "Rowing". But at least I can hear four great musicians that know what they are doing and are passionate about it. The rhythm section is excellent, the vocals are strong, the guitars sound good, and at least for me there are moments of pure bliss. The album makes me want to see the band live. It makes me want to have some red wine and listen to it in the dark.

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Old 11-12-2012, 03:37 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by houseofglass11 View Post
You sure are one self-righteous little twat.

The guitar work on Zeitgeist is quite good so I don't know what you're on about there. Yes, the mixing isn't the greatest but I already fucking said that.

No good songs on Zeitgeist and worst album of all time? Yeah right, you're off your rocker man.

Doomsday Clock (killer fucking riff), Bleeding the Orchid (great atmosphere), That's The Way My Love Is (beautiful song all around), Tarantula (dumb rock song but killer guitar solo), United States (repetitive but Jimmy's drums are awesome), Bring the Light (amazing guitar solo with the Queen-esque guitar symphony), Come On Let's Go (sounds like Zwan, catchy riff)

And Pomp and Circumstance is a beautiful song. Sounds like a lost Adore track almost.

How can anyone be stupid enough to like it? There's nothing stupid about recognizing a good song when you hear one. I wonder the opposite about fucks like you on netphoria with sand in your vag...how could you hate that album so much?

Oceania is a MUCH weaker album. The guitar tone is awful throughout the whole album. The synths are terribly cheesy. Clunky drumming from Byrne. And BC's vocals are weak throughout the whole album.
The guitar work in 7 Shades of Black is barely reminiscent of Corgan's guitar style at all. 7 Shades of Black sounds like he has a huge funnel on the front of his amp.

Doomsday Clock's riff was ok, but the rhythm guitar was terrible. His vocals made the song worthless. Bleeding the Orchid had a decent atmosphere, but the choir Billy ruined it and the "clouds in my shower" line. That's the Way is horrid. I don't understand the love affair for such a mediocre pop song. Tarantula was great. Mostly because Corgan's voice was mixed correctly. Bring the Light was all guitar solo. Come On Let's Go is the most forgettable song Corgan has ever penned. Pomp and Circumstance sounds NOTHING like Adore and is the WORST song he has ever written. "Lalalalalalalalalalazy" His vocals are SO much better. Mixed lower, no "jackals lick their balls" lines, no pussy yells like United States and no off-key whines like "you shald wahnt et AHLLLLLL"

And it's pretty much an overwhelming consensus outside of Netphoria critically and among fans that Zeitgeist is complete horseshit and Oceania a true return to form.

Fuck off, you insufferable nostalgic twat.

 
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:01 PM   #167
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Nostalgia for 2007? What is this, an Amy Winehouse forum?

 
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:22 PM   #168
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does anyone else giggle when people get uptight and feel they have to defend Zeitgeist??
People arguing about music in general just makes me laugh now.

People arguing over which crappy post 2000 Pumpkins albums sucks less makes me hate humanity.

 
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:16 PM   #169
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more connected with classic rock than punk, big solos, sludgy guitars, moaning vocals, dark/depressing lyrics, flannel, long songs, generally depressing and overwrought and emotional - which is why i tend to splinter nirvana off from grunge proper because they are very punk and why i consider AiC, PJ and soundgarden to be "true grunge."

i mean you can cite specifics of why they're different bands but nobody's saying they all sound exactly alike, genres are general tags to group bands that have a similar style and usually the originators are all connected because they are all from the same place. i mean fuck it's really hard for me to figure out how someone can sit there and say that somehow genres shouldn't be linked by their place of origin because GUESS WHAT usually they are and this is definitely as true for grunge as it is for minor threat and black flag
a "scene" and a "genre" aren't really the same thing... basically I just think that the assertion that these bands share some sort of musical DNA is not very accurate except that they all have the common ancestors Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath. There are some similarities which I see as coming from the general cultural zeitgeist at the time (e.g. hard rock revival, thematic obsession with pain and mental suffering), but I see a lot of these elements in other contemporary bands like SP or Hole, who are not from Seattle. If you ditch the quieter half of the songs on Gish, SD, and MCIS, I think SP sounds as much like any of these bands as they sound like each other. I mean in this thread we have like 4 different people arguing that grunge exists but Nirvana doesn't fit/Pearl Jam doesn't fit/AIC doesn't fit. No one knows what the hell grunge really is, because the term was invented to sell shirts.

Sure, they were in a scene together and shared a lot of fans and the members of the bands were all friends though, if that is what you mean.

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Originally Posted by Trotskilicious View Post
i mean if pearl jam and soundgarden have nothing in common how come temple of the dog is so a-typically "grunge"
personally I don't think the songwriting on the TOTD album sounds like either Soundgarden or Pearl Jam

 
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:41 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by meangreensp View Post
The guitar work in 7 Shades of Black is barely reminiscent of Corgan's guitar style at all. 7 Shades of Black sounds like he has a huge funnel on the front of his amp.

Doomsday Clock's riff was ok, but the rhythm guitar was terrible. His vocals made the song worthless. Bleeding the Orchid had a decent atmosphere, but the choir Billy ruined it and the "clouds in my shower" line. That's the Way is horrid. I don't understand the love affair for such a mediocre pop song. Tarantula was great. Mostly because Corgan's voice was mixed correctly. Bring the Light was all guitar solo. Come On Let's Go is the most forgettable song Corgan has ever penned. Pomp and Circumstance sounds NOTHING like Adore and is the WORST song he has ever written. "Lalalalalalalalalalazy" His vocals are SO much better. Mixed lower, no "jackals lick their balls" lines, no pussy yells like United States and no off-key whines like "you shald wahnt et AHLLLLLL"

And it's pretty much an overwhelming consensus outside of Netphoria critically and among fans that Zeitgeist is complete horseshit and Oceania a true return to form.

Fuck off, you insufferable nostalgic twat.
Why so angry bro? Obviously the mixing is much better on Oceania but overall the song writing was stronger on Zeitgeist... If only the production wasn't executed like it was.

Your hate for Pomp and Circumstance is ridiculous. It's my favorite song off Zeitgeist. Its a fantastic track a truly great closer to the album... And man that guitar solo is magic.

Songs like Thats the way, Bleeding the Orchid, Tarantula, Starz, United States, Bring the Light, Come on lets go, PAC, Stellar and Ma Belle are damn good tracks..

Not to mention that it was overall a much better era to actually see the band live in... Besides the fact that the band was much tighter than it is now, The setlists were so varied and it was really fun as a fan to follow each show to see what songs they would bust out... And it was a surprise when you actually went to the show.

 
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:21 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by houseofglass11 View Post
Doomsday Clock (killer fucking riff), Bleeding the Orchid (great atmosphere), That's The Way My Love Is (beautiful song all around), Tarantula (dumb rock song but killer guitar solo), United States (repetitive but Jimmy's drums are awesome), Bring the Light (amazing guitar solo with the Queen-esque guitar symphony), Come On Let's Go (sounds like Zwan, catchy riff)
This, pretty much. There are a number of good bits surrounded by a bunch of fairly inane shit. That ratio does not average out too well for me though. It's enough inanity on balance that I rarely have the motivation for replay.

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Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
I mean in this thread we have like 4 different people arguing that grunge exists but Nirvana doesn't fit/Pearl Jam doesn't fit/AIC doesn't fit. No one knows what the hell grunge really is, because the term was invented to sell shirts.
They're all basically different sides of the same cultural coin. I think that despite the modern urge to find corporate cloak and dagger conspiracy in everything (marketing awareness of health conditions as "new" diseases to sell new pharmaceuticals, for example) that honestly this sort of thing usually first develops out of a powerful innate desire to make sense of the world by grouping together and labeling novel things which seem connected in some way as a form of cognitive shorthand. I mean people really feel genuinely good about finally being able to label something even if being able to do so is of relatively little practical consequence. (Ever watch Mystery Diagnosis? They're all like, "hell yeah, I finally found a doctor that told me I have a rare and incurable genetic disorder but now I know what I have and thank god it's not cancer either!") There are characteristics of "grunge" which involve culture, clothing, attitude, and music and people realize that they cluster together - even if in any given item may only have some, but not all, of the attributes stereotyped by the label. (Meeting the numerical majority of that criteria is about good enough for your brain to apply the label...but this largely happens subconsciously, mind you.) Grunge was first used to label a genuine cultural phenomena that people started to notice; the marketing of such cultural phenomena, however, is usually just the end stage process. By the time it has mainstreamed enough to start marketing, its lifespan as a movement is going to be on the wane with the original trendsetters.

Last edited by stumpycat : 11-12-2012 at 11:27 PM.

 
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:42 PM   #172
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oh ok, that must be why Kurt Cobain and Eddie Vedder thought the label was a joke

 
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:21 AM   #173
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Why so angry bro? Obviously the mixing is much better on Oceania but overall the song writing was stronger on Zeitgeist... If only the production wasn't executed like it was.

Your hate for Pomp and Circumstance is ridiculous. It's my favorite song off Zeitgeist. Its a fantastic track a truly great closer to the album... And man that guitar solo is magic.

Songs like Thats the way, Bleeding the Orchid, Tarantula, Starz, United States, Bring the Light, Come on lets go, PAC, Stellar and Ma Belle are damn good tracks..

Not to mention that it was overall a much better era to actually see the band live in... Besides the fact that the band was much tighter than it is now, The setlists were so varied and it was really fun as a fan to follow each show to see what songs they would bust out... And it was a surprise when you actually went to the show.
This guy knows what's up. And meangreensp, you need to take your meds kid. I'm not vehemently defending anything here. Just stating my belief that Zeitgeist is a better album than most smarmy pricks like yourself give it credit for.

Meangreensp's argument pretty much consists of:
NO WAHHHH IT ALL SUCKS< EVERYTHING SUCKS YOU SUCK< FUCK YOU.

 
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:22 AM   #174
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People arguing about music in general just makes me laugh now.

People arguing over which crappy post 2000 Pumpkins albums sucks less makes me hate humanity.
Then what the fuck are you doing here? This is a smashing pumpkins board where people are inclined to...oh, I don't know...talk about smashing pumpkins and their work.

 
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:24 AM   #175
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overall the song writing was stronger on Zeitgeist
what the actual fuck

 
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:24 AM   #176
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Artists, as a rule, seem to HATE labels though. More generally it seems like a part of human nature that people vehemently reject being labeled themselves all the whilst happily labeling others. Everyone thinks they're special...special and unique, just like everyone else.

 
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:27 AM   #177
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I wonder if he meant the song writing on Zeitgeist was stronger either lyrically or from the point of song structure, or both?

 
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:41 AM   #178
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zeitgeist has some good structure, but it never pans out completely. the few times it does - like that drum freakout thing in starz - it sounds wonderful. DFA sounds great. BTO to some degree. the bare bones songs are not terrible, but they are executed poorly. very poorly

 
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:02 AM   #179
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There are definitely some strong moments on Zeitgeist, and a few amazing moments.... but overall that sensation of wonder is fleeting. An extremely mediocre record with extremely bad execution that has a few moments of old Pumpkins brilliance shining through. Oceania is MUCH better in pretty much every way, and I think Oceania is only slightly above average

 
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:09 AM   #180
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i agree with all of that

 
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