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Old 08-10-2018, 12:12 AM   #31
johncg
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Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
dude what
Calm your tatas!

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:33 AM   #32
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yeah you're causing a scene

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:07 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by houseofglass11 View Post
Of any person, group, or artist? Nah. Beatles, Bob Dylan, Pink Floyd, Zeppelin, Hendrix, Sabbath etc. all trump SP easily. SP will be remembered for Siamese Dream, it's usually the only album of theirs that places on those critic top 100 albums list.
I honestly disagree. I think the prolificacy, innovation, and consistency of high-quality music created by SP between 1991-1996 easily rivals any of the most significant bodies of work created in 20th century western popular music.

Iím not talking about mainstream staying power and influence. The artists you mentioned all trump SP on that level. Iím talking about the amount of work that was produced that is likely to be remembered as both singular and definitive of a time-period or movement as a whole.

Iím looking back at the different eras of jazz, blues, and western classical music for an indication of what works are remembered. Those who study music seriously tend to focus on those pieces and style movements which are most rich and prolific in innovation. It has nothing to do with how cool the artist was at the time or who had the best career. It just comes down the music.

Iím looking at it like this:

The Beatles are widely accepted by music scholars (and just about everyone) as the pinnacle of western popular music in this era. They released just over 200 songs in 8 years.

SP from Ď91-Ď96 released about 100 songs most of which were fairly brilliant. That puts them almost on pace with the Fab Four in terms of quantity of music divided by years. When you subtract the 30 or so covers recorded by the Beatles, the two are almost dead even.

Led Zeppelin by contrast released about 90 songs in 11 years. Nirvana only released like three albums total. Hendrix released about 3-4 albums. The only other musical movement I can think of that comes close to rivaling SP or the Beatles is Motown. And there we have several songwriters and a lot of filler songs so itís not a fair comparison perhaps.

I totally hate on Billy by the way. I think he has very problematic personality traits and that his post-Ď96 work is mostly unremarkable. I also think...again from the perspective of a music historian or musicologist...that he takes way too much credit for the output of SP at its peak. Butch Vig, Flood, Alan Moulder, and the original SP lineup (which was never functionally intact again after 1996) all deserve a lot of credit for creating the work as well. Look no further for evidence of this than the fact that just about nothing Billy has done post-Ď96 compares to his work during the 91-96 time period.

But hate on the man all you want, the work speaks for itself. Itís mind blowing how many different styles SP seamlessly blended together into a unique voice and how many great songs they released in so little time. Most great artists in popular music have one innovative sound and maybe a handful of great songs. SP had several stylistic innovations and DOZENS of great songs.

Fight me.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:53 AM   #34
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ok

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:57 AM   #35
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I will argue SP is one of the greatest rock bands in terms of the sheer quantity of amazing output from the original band. They really were a great, special act.

But no one is going to remember them except as a footnote to alternative rock

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:45 AM   #36
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Adore was teh 1sst stepe towardss irrelevancyyie

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:49 AM   #37
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Boris are shit.
Go boil yourself in a geyser and choke on raw rotten oysters or whatever you eat in Greenland.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:32 AM   #38
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i don't know about a footnote to alternative rock, they're pretty big within that category. it counts for something that they're able to tour in arenas at all right now, despite the ticket sales and nostalgia factor. but i guess we'll just have to wait and see, maybe everyone will remember that Smashing Orange band instead

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:09 AM   #39
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that was tl;dr, but the bands I mentioned are all superior to SP on both a musical and cultural level. btw, I forgot to mention the Cure. Robert Smith is ten times the songwriter Corgan is.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:54 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
Go boil yourself in a geyser and choke on raw rotten oysters or whatever you eat in Greenland.
Aren't the geysers in Iceland? I don't know much about Greenland but I did fly over it once on the way to Vancouver and it's mostly icy peaks.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:08 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by johncg View Post
Iím looking back at the different eras of jazz, blues, and western classical music for an indication of what works are remembered.
the difference is those were eras of music that lead to change
grunge and then alternative led to nothing. at the time there was the dream and hope that with/through this 'new music' things would change. but in hindsight they didn't. The only thing that's changed was the internet and that had NOTHING to do with the music of that era. So realistically, with the era being insignificant, so are it's contributors. sorry. grunge and alternative are the footnote.


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Originally Posted by johncg View Post
Pumpkins had several stylistic innovations
what did they invent?
loud quiet?
used strings in a slow song?
had a weirdo frontman?
used electronic elements in rock?
had a shaved head?

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:17 AM   #42
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Will kids care 20-30 years from now is the question.
Stating Siamese Dream is a cemented classic already implies kids will care in 20-30 years, that's what being a cemented classic means.

Gish, Siamese Dream, and Mellon Collie & the Infinite Sadness are all cemented classic alternative rock albums in my opinion. It's interesting to see where people think this band stands in the history of music and rock.

For instance, Gish is listed in "Gimme Indie Rock: 500 essential American underground rock albums 1981-1996," a book you can find in about any B&N.

For all the people buying tickets to this tour and all the people sitting at home cynical alike, many of those people will have kids and those kids will peep their parents' music collection or be introduced to music the way the same as we were. In that case more than likely all the classic albums will be remembered.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:44 AM   #43
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It's weird because for many years the perception was that Mellon Collie was their biggest release. It certainly was in terms of sales, but now Siamese Dream has overtaken it as the number 1 album in people's estimation. By people I mean regular, non-super fans. And in the media. Mellon Collie isn't really mentioned as much.

Like, they use the girls from the cover to promote the new tour.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:30 PM   #44
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Mellon Collie is just as iconic and imo even more definitive than Siamese Dream, in terms of a solitary album representation of the band. Way before I ever listened to the band, I knew both of those album covers instantaneously. I had seen the woman on the star so many times it practically felt like an album that had been in my own collection the entire time, just one I hadn't listened to yet

The singles on both albums will ensure their play on Pandora, Spotify, XFM and whatever else which will keep people coming back to the records themselves - or at the very least keep the name Smashing Pumpkins in the minds of people who never listened to them before and did not grow up with the grunge/alternative 90s era in any form

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:30 PM   #45
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It's weird because for many years the perception was that Mellon Collie was their biggest release. It certainly was in terms of sales, but now Siamese Dream has overtaken it as the number 1 album in people's estimation. By people I mean regular, non-super fans. And in the media. Mellon Collie isn't really mentioned as much.

Like, they use the girls from the cover to promote the new tour.
This seems to be true, strangely enough, I feel these days that Mellon Collie is overlooked somehow by the broader audience despite how many classic SP songs are on it. I've always considered the album overall to easily be the band's high point.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:38 PM   #46
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Yeah, this is sort of how I feel - one song from the new album feels lame.

I understand having another tour to support it is probaly on the books - but when? Can you see them doing . a tour on this scale anytime soon?
I think the album is bad and they were worried about it killing momentum for the tour.

This tour is a strange beast. It's an artistic and critical success but there is no way it made money. So will the bean counters see that and fund another giant tour banking on word of mouth or will they cut off his charge card?

Is there another grandiose production that can be squeezed out of this somehow? How into all of this is James really? Would James sign on for some crazy Machina thing. I feel like if he knew he was going to be playing in front of Saint Bobo images every night he wouldn't have signed on.

There are so many pieces to all this who knows what will happen. Plus is Billy really out of toes to shoot off? How has he not fucked this up yet.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:41 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by johncg View Post
I honestly disagree. I think the prolificacy, innovation, and consistency of high-quality music created by SP between 1991-1996 easily rivals any of the most significant bodies of work created in 20th century western popular music.

Iím not talking about mainstream staying power and influence. The artists you mentioned all trump SP on that level. Iím talking about the amount of work that was produced that is likely to be remembered as both singular and definitive of a time-period or movement as a whole.

Iím looking back at the different eras of jazz, blues, and western classical music for an indication of what works are remembered. Those who study music seriously tend to focus on those pieces and style movements which are most rich and prolific in innovation. It has nothing to do with how cool the artist was at the time or who had the best career. It just comes down the music.

Iím looking at it like this:

The Beatles are widely accepted by music scholars (and just about everyone) as the pinnacle of western popular music in this era. They released just over 200 songs in 8 years.

SP from Ď91-Ď96 released about 100 songs most of which were fairly brilliant. That puts them almost on pace with the Fab Four in terms of quantity of music divided by years. When you subtract the 30 or so covers recorded by the Beatles, the two are almost dead even.

Led Zeppelin by contrast released about 90 songs in 11 years. Nirvana only released like three albums total. Hendrix released about 3-4 albums. The only other musical movement I can think of that comes close to rivaling SP or the Beatles is Motown. And there we have several songwriters and a lot of filler songs so itís not a fair comparison perhaps.

I totally hate on Billy by the way. I think he has very problematic personality traits and that his post-Ď96 work is mostly unremarkable. I also think...again from the perspective of a music historian or musicologist...that he takes way too much credit for the output of SP at its peak. Butch Vig, Flood, Alan Moulder, and the original SP lineup (which was never functionally intact again after 1996) all deserve a lot of credit for creating the work as well. Look no further for evidence of this than the fact that just about nothing Billy has done post-Ď96 compares to his work during the 91-96 time period.

But hate on the man all you want, the work speaks for itself. Itís mind blowing how many different styles SP seamlessly blended together into a unique voice and how many great songs they released in so little time. Most great artists in popular music have one innovative sound and maybe a handful of great songs. SP had several stylistic innovations and DOZENS of great songs.

Fight me.
LOL this might be the most absurd post made on this board ever.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:11 PM   #48
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I'd say the perfunctory Motown dismissal alone puts it in the pantheon

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:20 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by T&T View Post



what did they invent?
loud quiet?
used strings in a slow song?
had a weirdo frontman?
used electronic elements in rock?
had a shaved head?
The Pumpkins signature Siamese Dream wall of guitars think has never been done before or since.

“Geek USA” blends progressive rock song forms, shoegaze guitar sounds, metal riffs and lead guitar playing, a dream-pop song vignette, and a self-conscious/self-effacing.
indie rock aesthetic. That I see as very innovative as it was something without precedent at the time and which no one else I’m aware of has done since.

So that’s two concrete examples of innovations credited to SP in pop music.

If I’m wrong, let me know. But please use an argument based on evidence, not just a baseless attack. Explain to me where the Siamese Dream guitar sound has been used before or since. Or explain how those stylistic elements are either not present on “Geek USA” or were innovated pre-SP.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:24 PM   #50
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What the hell. Is Siamese dream the only album you own or what

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:33 PM   #51
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Yes it’s in the only album I own

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:41 PM   #52
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You should get some more albums there’s some good ones

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:52 PM   #53
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This tour is a strange beast. It's an artistic and critical success but there is no way it made money. .
what in gods name are you basing this on.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:46 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by johncg View Post
The Pumpkins signature Siamese Dream wall of guitars think has never been done before or since.
LOL


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...zing_musicians

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:48 PM   #55
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what in gods name are you basing this on.
The fact that every review I have and every person I know who has gone has enjoyed it.

Oh wait I forgot where I am.

Yeah it sucks, everything he does sucks. DARCY!

Let's face it he pretty much nailed this one.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:01 PM   #56
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Billy Corgan 1
Netphoria 0

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:20 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Rider View Post
The fact that every review I have and every person I know who has gone has enjoyed it.

Oh wait I forgot where I am.

Yeah it sucks, everything he does sucks. DARCY!

Let's face it he pretty much nailed this one.
I think he was referring to it not making money.

Honestly, it might not have made money. I have no idea how much that type of production costs but it can't be cheap.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:25 PM   #58
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The Pumpkins signature Siamese Dream wall of guitars think has never been done before or since.
.
Distorted guitars were invented by Billy donít you know.

Two records that come to mind:
HUM - Youíd Prefer An Astronaut (wall of sound guitars as heavy or heavier than SD, and just as good)
Deftones - Around the Fur (pretty much the SD of nu metal)

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:17 PM   #59
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I’m not arguing that the use of distortion or a shoegazey sound is unique.

I mean really? You actually think that’s what I’m saying?

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:32 PM   #60
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You said the Siamese Dream wall of guitars had never been done before or since and it had and has. SD ripped the Nevermind and Loveless guitar sounds. And plenty of other contemporaries of SP did wall of sound guitars.

 
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