TRUMP

[MarquisInSpades]

after all, people with mixed sex factors are called intersex people.

[FoolofaTook]

Ya'll should check out The Left Hand of Darkness. On the planet of Gethen everyone is androgynous. When mating season comes, two ppl who are attracted to each other take on genders. so you could be female one year and male the next.

ursula le guin fucking pwns. oh and she has criticised her own work for failing to go far enough (she uses male pronouns for the androgynes this was written in the 60s)

[Disco King]

Regardless of what the medical conditions are called (Turner's, Klinefelter's, etc), what terminology do you use for them? Pronouns? Titles (Mr., Ms., etc.)? Words denoting relationships (is an intersex sibling a "brother" or "sister?" Is an intersex partner a "boyfriend" or "girlfriend?")?

[Disco King]

Is an intersex person with female internal organs and male external organs who dates an intersex person with chromosomal mosaicism in a heterosexual relationship, because their biologies are different, or a homosexual relationship, because they are both intersex?

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Ya'll should check out The Left Hand of Darkness. On the planet of Gethen everyone is androgynous. When mating season comes, two ppl who are attracted to each other take on genders. so you could be female one year and male the next.

ursula le guin fucking pwns. oh and she has criticised her own work for failing to go far enough (she uses male pronouns for the androgynes this was written in the 60s)

there are real animals like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite especially in da ocean

[FoolofaTook]

Yes she is super astute. A scholar. Writes ideological sci-fi/fantasy.

[buzzard]

Anybody want to risk asking MarquisInSpades for their thoughts on homosexuality?

[FoolofaTook]

I know I don't want to risk asking your thoughts on the Chronicles of Narnia.

[buzzard]

I never do post about Alcest, keep in mind.

You owe me.

[FoolofaTook]

You... you... would... say bad things? About Alcest?

I can't breathe. The walls are closing in. The world is crushing me.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by MarquisInSpades

Well, they're transgender, apparently, so they had a phase in between in which they wanted to be called The Wachowski Sisters, but I still call them the brothers because they are, biologically, male. After that, though, now they just want to be called The Wachowskis. I wonder why.

Having a penis might make you biologically male, but it doesn't make you a man (or a Brother, in this case).

Originally Posted by reprise85

you should call them what they want to be called. basic respect.

Seriously this is not that hard to understand.

Originally Posted by MarquisInSpades

I don't care for gender in general, since it is a stupid social construct. Nonetheless, if you say gender is malleable, and your gender is based on your perception of what you are, I can have my own perception. I still admire them a lot, as filmmakers, but claiming membership to a sex to which you don't belong isn't correct biologically. I usually get shit on for having this opinion, but it IS my opinion, and therefore I'm free to express it.

you sound like this picture looks

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images...2/oUn0LUv0.jpg

Originally Posted by MarquisInSpades

Plus, honestly, claiming membership to another sex just widens the gender gap, which I am against.

you're a straight cis person? not your place to say. maybe if you were of professor of gender and sexuality I would entertain you, but I'm pretty sure you're just some dumb dude who thinks his opinion is as valid as any other opinion because of entitlement and privilege. you basically have no idea what you are saying but are claiming your opinion is equally valid as any other opinion just because you have it. we already have one of those around here, his name is fuzzyroes

Originally Posted by MarquisInSpades

not the point I'm trying to make. I've said this before. you can be a dude who is completely feminine. that doesn't make you a female. it simply makes you, well, a dude who is feminine.

I'm fairly feminine for a man, by traditional standards. I have identified as being more feminine than most men since puberty. It's not even remotely similar to being born a woman with a penis.

Originally Posted by reprise85

You can express it. It just sounds very juvenile. Would you have a problem if people referred to you as a female? I know you don't think it's the same thing since you are biologically male and that would be biologically wrong, but I believe that comes from a place of reduced empathy. Regardless of your perception, you are not in their brains, and it costs you absolutely nothing to defer to the person who is living with their reality as a gender different from their biological sex. It is basic respect.

Again, thank you Reprise, this is really not that hard to understand. Just respect how people want to be identified. It doesn't hurt, and it isn't hard. It actually feels good, I promise.

Originally Posted by MarquisInSpades

reprise, I DO respect them, but the reason I am not doing this is simple: they are not females—they are males—and to address males with female pronouns or females with male pronouns is to contribute to our culture’s confusion about sexuality and the nature of the human person, which is literally leaving casualties in its wake.

you are actively making a choice to show disrespect. you are not god and tbh you make it pretty easy to discern you aren't a scientist either. you don't really have any ethos here. you sound like the generic obnoxious entitled know-it-all guy who makes his way into every college class and always wants to play devil's advocate and sees themself as some kind of voice of objectivity. I'll tell you straight out, you look naïve and childish.

Originally Posted by MarquisInSpades

I don't believe in division.

there are not enough eye rolls in the world

[FoolofaTook]

DK made some great points. Wish I could think/write like he does.

[FoolofaTook]

And Marquis is just 17. He has time to change and learn.

Fuzzrod on the other hand...

[myosis]

well at least he gets replied to with dignity

[buzzard]

Oh, you wait.

[FoolofaTook]

Heh

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by myosis

well at least he gets replied to with dignity

well he doesn't have years of catalogued assholery to answer for so it's easier to be fair minded and believe he can learn. fuzzy obviously can't learn and the best we can hope for is to make him go away

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

And Marquis is just 17. He has time to change and learn.

Fuzzrod on the other hand...

Yes I took (aha!) that into account.

Really Marquis, I hope you can learn that you should respect other people's subjective experiences and treat them as they would like to be treated. Everyone KNOWS a transwoman is biologically still a male. You aren't like blowing our minds with this shit. You can think whatever you want I suppose and you say you respect trans people but if you misgender them on purpose or smugly think they are delusional and confused you are not respecting them. Obviously not everyone is the same and certainly it might be harmful for some people to transition but this a widespread phenomenon and there is very little evidence of psychological harm to those who have transitioned. Just respect people and assume they understand themselves better than you understand them.

If you feel very strongly that transitioning is harmful and that this change in acceptance in society is hurting people, you should study it seriously and have real evidence why you think so.

[redbreegull]

this dude is 17? so I was probably actually complimenting him by saying he's like that entitled guy in every college class

[buzzard]

I wonder how much time we've collectively spent on vain attempts at educating lost causes.

[redbreegull]

omg trump slurring words during jerusalem remarks omg sine of stroke, trump is sick, early stage of dementia

[MarquisInSpades]

Okay, I will respect anyone and everyone who deserves my respect, but my perception cannot be the same as yours based on your subjective sense of what you are.
Yeah, I have a lot more to learn. Everyone does, lol.
I speak from personal experience. Ever since the transgender movement came into being, I've gotten shit for it. Because, ~1 year ago, I referred to a guy as "he" because he was very clearly a male. He didn't identify as a "he". I am now labelled as a right-wing bigot (?) by some people. Of course, I don't care for it, but you can't expect me to know what's going on your brain. Most people who shamed me, from what I've seen, are really fucking stupid. They're brain-dead zombies, even. They don't have any actual facts or studies to back up their claim. That being said, I don't deny the existence of gender dysphoria, and I'm trying hard not be a prick about it, BUT, it still is a mental disorder. Psychiatric associations categorize it as Gender Identity DISORDER. That's literally all I'm saying. I'll still be respectful to people, but I won't choose to get into semantics. And shit is getting way more complicated now. You've got non-binary gender-fluid people (wtf?) who ask you to refer to them as 'they'. I don't see how this isn't absurd.

[MarquisInSpades]

Also, now that people want facts:

[MarquisInSpades]

The idea behind the transgender movement as a civil rights movement is the idea that all of their problems would just go away if I would pretend that they were the sex to which they claim membership. That’s nonsense. The transgender suicide rate is 40 percent. According to the Anderson School at UCLA, it makes no difference – there’s a study that came out last year – it makes no difference, virtually no difference statistically speaking, as to whether people recognize you as a transgender person or not, which suggests there’s a very high comorbidity between transgenderism, whatever that mental state may be, and suicidality, that has nothing to do with how society treats you.

[MarquisInSpades]

Also, that's not to say I'm for bullying. I'm against bullying of any kind. I've been bullied a lot, and the idea that someone would harass or beat me would be terrible.

[MarquisInSpades]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

this dude is 17? so I was probably actually complimenting him by saying he's like that entitled guy in every college class

hahahah

[MarquisInSpades]

Originally Posted by reprise85

Yes I took (aha!) that into account.

Really Marquis, I hope you can learn that you should respect other people's subjective experiences and treat them as they would like to be treated. Everyone KNOWS a transwoman is biologically still a male. You aren't like blowing our minds with this shit. You can think whatever you want I suppose and you say you respect trans people but if you misgender them on purpose or smugly think they are delusional and confused you are not respecting them. Obviously not everyone is the same and certainly it might be harmful for some people to transition but this a widespread phenomenon and there is very little evidence of psychological harm to those who have transitioned. Just respect people and assume they understand themselves better than you understand them.

If you feel very strongly that transitioning is harmful and that this change in acceptance in society is hurting people, you should study it seriously and have real evidence why you think so.

acceptance is not hurting anyone. I'm all for acceptance, as long as it doesn't harm other people.

[buzzard]

It's quite a coincidence that you were so quickly referred to as a bigot in a second, entirely distinct environment with no common membership, isn't it?

[MarquisInSpades]

Originally Posted by Disco King

Is an intersex person with female internal organs and male external organs who dates an intersex person with chromosomal mosaicism in a heterosexual relationship, because their biologies are different, or a homosexual relationship, because they are both intersex?

you're trying to conflate the unrelated condition of intersexuality with transgenderism to gain sympathy for a trans agenda. People with intersex conditions are not the same as self-identified transgender people. Being intersex is verifiable in the physical body; being transgender is not. People who identify as transgender usually have typical male or female anatomies.

[MarquisInSpades]

ahah