what lines from MCIS are ripped off from Elie Wiesel?

[Grox]

Listessa: Was Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness influenced by the writing of Elie Wiesel?

BC: (I) never even heard of him nor read any of his work. (I) was deeply insulted by the accusation of lyrical plagiarism. Anyone who knows me knows i would never be that lame. A guitar riff, maybe, but not words. There are only 12 notes, but a million words.

http://www.spfc.org/news-press/inter...ontent_id=2757

there's a netphoria post from 2006 that says many lines on MCIS were copied "verbatim" from Wiesel's books. well, the man's got forty of em, which ones did Billco steal from? allegedly? i would like to purchase and read them

[bunny]

off the top of my head there's these words I know he ripped off:

Billy "the"
Elie Wiesel "the"

Billy "I"
Elie Wiesel "I"

Billy "should"
Elie Wiesel "should"

Billy "happen"
Elie Wiesel "happen"

Billy "words"
Elie Wiesel "words"

[Grox]

the i should happen words... are you sure that wasnt on aeroplane?

[Ram27]

Originally Posted by Grox

Listessa: Was Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness influenced by the writing of Elie Wiesel?

BC: (I) never even heard of him nor read any of his work. (I) was deeply insulted by the accusation of lyrical plagiarism. Anyone who knows me knows i would never be that lame. A guitar riff, maybe, but not words. There are only 12 notes, but a million words.

http://www.spfc.org/news-press/inter...ontent_id=2757

there's a netphoria post from 2006 that says many lines on MCIS were copied "verbatim" from Wiesel's books. well, the man's got forty of em, which ones did Billco steal from? allegedly? i would like to purchase and read them

I love that he doesn't even know who he is. "A guitar riff"

yeah man he could fucking shred

[Ram27]

link to post: http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=137588

allegedly:

Zero 'emptiness is loneliness...'
the title 'Here is No Why'

It doesn't really seem major enough to get all pissy about. Just an allusion

[slunken]

Destroy the mind destroy the body but you cannot destroy the heart

Here is no why

That's all I can think of atm

[Grox]

WHOA he ripped off destroy the mind destroy the body but you cannot destroy the heart??? DAMN
fav mcis lyric

[Ihaguitar]

Originally Posted by slunken

Destroy the mind destroy the body but you cannot destroy the heart

Did a google search and nothing came up for this one.

[Ram27]

me too, apparently it's from a song called Fuck You (An Ode to No One) by a band called The Smashing Pumpkins

anyone ever heard of them?

[Ihaguitar]

Originally Posted by Ram27

me too, apparently it's from a song called Fuck You (An Ode to No One) by a band called The Smashing Pumpkins

anyone ever heard of them?

No. Any good?

[slunken]

It's paraphrased from a complete sentence, toads

[Elijah Moon]

Originally Posted by Ram27

Zero 'emptiness is loneliness...'
the title 'Here is No Why'

The title 'Here Is No Why' always reminded me of a line in Vonnegut's 'Slaugherhouse-Five' ("There is no why.") Also, the phrase "jelly belly" is used in that same novel, although I know it's hardly unique to that book.

[slunken]

he also has a book called galapagos

i remember when I first stumbled across that Listessa thread (mid/late 90s) I immediately grabbed Wiesels books from the international library loan. Dawn and Twlight I believe were the two books in question. After that I read Vonnegut's Galapagos and then started on Philip K. Dick.

My conclusion is just that Billy read the stuff enough times that some of the material seeped in (regarding Wiesel). Its not so much "exact phrases" that "he is stealing" it's more like general ideas and tones and imagery. I got that mostly from Wiesel than I ever did from Vonnegut or Dick, as far as "kind of sounds like BC goes". And maybe he truly never even read Wiesel. He could have read an article about something else that happened to mention Wiesel. Or something was even ripping off Wiesel so BC was already getting it 3rd or 4th hand. See how that works? It doesn't matter.

If anything I chalk it up to like how Pink Floyd has Wizard of Oz, Antichrist Superstar has The Begotten, MCIS kind of has Dawn, Day, and Twilight.

From what I remember its all about concentration camps experience and you have armed ss agents saying things like "destroy the mind/body//heart/etc"
. I remember it really enhancing both works. It gave the books a soundtrack and the music gets all kinds of new more specific imagery now.

AAAAAAANYWAY i'm not stupid enough to be like "omg billy you ripoff" it's just really really intriguing if you like that sort of thing. It totally goes together. Think About It. Where Boys Fear To Tread.

[slunken]

if anybody finds digital copies of any of Wiesel's books (Dawn, Day, and Twilight) send me a pm I would love to revisit.

[Grox]

Yeah I only wanted to know so I could buy the books in question, which I did. thx slunken

[Grox]

you wouldn't care if somebody accused you of plagiarism? you wouldn't get anxious even if you know you didnt do it consciously? also why is everyone so defensive itt?

[slunken]

even if he did it consciously i still wouldn't call it plagiarism fwiw - there are maybe 2 instances in the book that have similar peculiar phrases but like i said before the rest of it is more general tone and ambiance imo

[reprise85]

Night is the only Wiesel book I've read. It was pretty great but Man's Search For Meaning (Victor Frankl) is the best holocaust memoir. It's fucking insane. He was a psychiatrist so he really was able to explain all the fucked up psychological torture they all experienced, what happened when people gave up hope (like you could tell because they started smoking cigarettes instead of trading them to the guards for an extra piece of bread, etc), what the death marches were like, etc. all kinds of stuff.

[slunken]

oh wait i forgot about Night. There are 4 books - Dawn, Day, Dusk, and Night. Night is the one with all the references I think.

[reprise85]

Night is on a lot of HS reading lists. It can be read in two hours no problem. It's possible he read it and doesn't even realize. I read it within the last few years and didn't recognize any SP stuff in it, but I wasn't looking for it.

It might be on reading lists here because there is a high Jewish population, but I'm pretty sure it's on them in a lot of places.

[slunken]

“Did I write it so as not to go mad or, on the contrary, to go mad in order to understand the nature of madness?”

“Never shall I forget that night, the first night in camp, that turned my life into one long night seven times sealed.
Never shall I forget that smoke.
Never shall I forget the small faces of the children whose bodies I saw transformed into smoke under a silent sky.
Never shall I forget those flames that consumed my faith forever.
Never shall I forget the nocturnal silence that deprived me for all eternity of the desire to live.
Never shall I forget those moments that murdered my God and my soul and turned my dreams to ashes.
Never shall I forget those things, even were I condemned to live as long as God Himself.
Never.”

“In the beginning there was faith - which is childish; trust - which is vain; and illusion - which is dangerous.”

“One more stab to the heart, one more reason to hate. One less reason to live.”

“I told him that I did not believe that they could burn people in our age, that humanity would never tolerate it . . .”

“The stars were only sparks of the fire which devoured us. Should that fire die out one day, there would be nothing left in the sky but dead stars, dead eyes.”

[slunken]

"god is lonely just like me"

[slunken]

Originally Posted by smashing pumpkins online chat the night before the dublin 1996 show

Q: Billy, there's a lot of on-line discussion about the books of Elie Weisel and your
lyrics. Was this a
definite influence?
Billy: I've heard this and I have absolutely no idea. You know what it is? He wrote this
one thing
called Mayonnaise. So it starts there. You know how I got the title Mayonnaise? I looked
in my
refrigerator.

[slunken]

I forgot Tear was based off the book/movie "Crash"

[slunken]

he's admitted to loving philip k dick and pg. 50 of MAZE OF DEATH reads: ""It's like chess: move and respond. I started the whole thing going. Like a rat
in a cage, trying to find the lever that drops food. Rather than one that
transmits electric shock.""

[Ihaguitar]

Bodies was based on a book too, I beleive. "The Pearl" by John Steinbeck someone once said. But it also has shades of Cities of the Red Night buy William S Burroughs.

[FoolofaTook]

Originally Posted by Elijah Moon

The title 'Here Is No Why' always reminded me of a line in Vonnegut's 'Slaugherhouse-Five' ("There is no why.") Also, the phrase "jelly belly" is used in that same novel, although I know it's hardly unique to that book.

yeah I noticed the similarity to Vonnegut too. then there's "in the belly of the beast" which is biblical, from Jonah, as everyone knows. and there are tons of other phrases in sp lyrics that are similar to other stuff in art. so what?

I just thinking billy is influenced by his reading/listening/etc. If he does it intentionally, it's just an allusion, a common literary device. if its unintentional then its just the subconscious effect of consuming art.

I don't see why some view that as ripping off another artist.

[FoolofaTook]

Originally Posted by reprise85

Night is the only Wiesel book I've read. It was pretty great but Man's Search For Meaning (Victor Frankl) is the best holocaust memoir. It's fucking insane. He was a psychiatrist so he really was able to explain all the fucked up psychological torture they all experienced, what happened when people gave up hope (like you could tell because they started smoking cigarettes instead of trading them to the guards for an extra piece of bread, etc), what the death marches were like, etc. all kinds of stuff.

yeah frankl is nuts. (wiesel is good too).

when I was in Austria, we had a holocaust survivor come and talk to us. most of the audience where high school age germans and Austrians, so it was intense, to say the least. anyway this poor man watched his whole family die, or at least his dad and bro, the females were separated, I think. it was horrible. watching an old man cry... but he said he was trying to forgive and telling his story to warn new generations. and he said he stopped believing in god while in the camp.

[FoolofaTook]

oops, I should have read the whole thread before posting

[Grox]

yeah, i'm not giving Willco a hard time here, i want to read books he was influenced by. theres a january 96 radio interview where some fan asks about Vonnegut and Willco denies ever having read him, or any of the "other five authors" people mentioned to him that day....