Has this year been a turning point?

[Kahlo]

Prior to the release of Silvery Sometimes the general impression I got from the online community (I'm ignoring zealots who would listen to Widow Make my Mind on repeat for 7 hours on repeat and call it genius) was average to cautious about SP's future.

Solara was a fairly standard track which wasn't exactly a departure from the last decade, but had at least a bit of energy, especially in the live performances. With SS (ghosts) and its acompanying new video, a well recieved tour, and Billy taking the time to answer Q&As have some of you changed your position on the future of SP?

I've personally found myself going back to revisit Machina material and listen to the old stuff for the first time in years. I feel cautiously optimistic about the next few releases, but feel that finally they are back on the right track after a couple of wilderness years....

So Netphoria - are we still the place where fans go to hate on the band?

[VoxUpDoc]

This could be a turning point, sure.

Anything is an improvement on the Teargarden era.

[Kahlo]

I'm holding out hope that the new single is excellent, or at least interesting as per Razorstars review.

If it's terrible I suggest we run him out of town for crushing our dreams.

[Razor Star]

Originally Posted by Kahlo

I'm holding out hope that the new single is excellent, or at least interesting as per Razorstars review.

If it's terrible I suggest we run him out of town for crushing our dreams.

In my defense I said I loved it, but it would be seriously divisive. The opposite of Solara really, which is "an okay song that sounds like Smashing Pumpkins", and difficult to either love or hate. Knights, I think, will be one or the other.

I do think if Billy manages to hold onto Jimmy and James and make this a proper, working, creative unit then this could be a turning point. I saw Shiny and Oh So Bright twice, once in the UK and once in the US, and I was completely blown away by it both times. If that level can be sustained... It comes down to what comes next, musically.

Problem is, I don't think Billy would be satisfied with being a respected band, making interesting music with a big catalogue behind him. He isn't Mark E Smith (though there are similarities). He'll want to be operating at the level of Pearl Jam, Green Day, RHCP or (at the very top end) the Foos in terms of sales, tickets and festival headline slots. That's unlikely to happen, so it depends on whether he can settle for being a b-league band with respect but not, necessarily, commercial clout.

[bright_doom]

It's a turning point, but it won't last.
Mark my words, Billy will shut down his Instagram, fall out with sad machines, start bitching about James/this tour/album sales and will announce a Zwan 20 year anniversary reunion in about 5 years.

[bright_doom]

The only thing that will be the same is there will still be no signs of the Metro DVD or his book.

[FoolofaTook]

yes and Jeff will continue fathering b0lliam's progeny

[eviltimeban]

The only thing that'll count as a turning point is recorded music of him singing like he used to sing.

[Kahlo]

Originally Posted by Razor Star

Problem is, I don't think Billy would be satisfied with being a respected band, making interesting music with a big catalogue behind him. He isn't Mark E Smith (though there are similarities). He'll want to be operating at the level of Pearl Jam, Green Day, RHCP or (at the very top end) the Foos in terms of sales, tickets and festival headline slots. That's unlikely to happen, so it depends on whether he can settle for being a b-league band with respect but not, necessarily, commercial clout.

Yeah, it's hard to see a way forward which embraces the commercial and the artistic spheres. I'd just be happy to see him produce music that's a bit more adventurous.

Going back and listening to some of the sonic textures and rough edges of the Machina era kind of points to what might have been in terms of a band that pushed the envelope...although one with a shrinking commercial return. I'm hoping (optimistically) that Iha will add some of those counterbalances to the 'metal' sound of SP...the sound that made them sound so diverse. Maybe it was Corgan who was behind much of that, who knows?

Maybe we'll find out on Volume 2.

[MonumentsRocks]

Originally Posted by eviltimeban

The only thing that'll count as a turning point is recorded music of him singing like he used to sing.

I agree about the singing, I don't know why he decided to go for the monotone belting, but it's definitely part of what sets his 90s work apart from the later material. I feel like it started with Zwan and was in full swing with Zeitgeist. He might actually be singing more "properly" now, so he feels like he can just put his foot on the gas with it, but it's not nearly as nuanced and soulful as it used to be. Sometimes his performances were so touching, you'd think "I can't believe such as asshole would have this in him", but these days he kind of sings like an asshole, too.

[Kahlo]

AI don't get as hung up on the singing as you guys do. It hit its nadir on the 2009 (?) tour with the skipping of consonants ie: "OO AY IS A GRAAATES', but it hasn't bothered me since then.

His voice has changed, but hey - so has he. He can't be expected to maintain the voice of a man decades his junior.

[redbreegull]

Billy likely damaged his voice from screaming his head off during the original run, especially during the MCIS years. I doubt he can sing the way he used to, although I think he might have gotten a vocal coach or some lessons in the last few years cause he's gotten a little better. People keep asking why he chooses to sing poorly but to me it looks and sounds like the guy is obviously struggling to get to where he used to be

[soniclovenoize]

Where is the "Yes, but indifferent" option?

[jimmy drevpile]

I'm feeling it. The London show was tight as fuck. Burnt many times by the billy. But never been disappointed musically by the 3 of them before. The new EP (LP) will be telling... But I want to hear what they write next coming off the back off such a successful tour - that will be the real deal.

[Spira|_]

Ghosts is just avearage. Chill out.
His voice was (for me) the bigger SPs mark. Without it back it will continue to be just the SP2.0.

I listening to Ghosts for the first time on Youtube.
After Youtube automatically played Everlasting Gaze... and then I realized: Oh Ghosts is so bad omg!
And I never liked EGaze much.

[redbreegull]

I don't get the voice thing either, tbh. People's voices change. Especially with male voices, there tends to be a lot of degradation over time and Billy Corgan is now 51 years old. I think when he misses consonants or sings off key, it sounds bad cause he is literally fucking up. But when his voice sounds good, like many nights on this last tour, it really sounds good to me. He's improved so much in the last few years. He will never have the voice of a guy in his 20s again, that's just like life man

That's not to say his voice hasn't been a problem, cause it has been a big problem. But if he put out good music and produced his voice well, it would sound good to me regardless of him not being able to sing like a kid anymore

[fuzzyroes]

Have to agree with you here.

He's what is known as a over the hill. As a young rocker he could snarl, screech, scream and do it all, but he just doesn't have what it takes anymore.

James Hetfield suffers with the same thing.

[redbreegull]

I think he could probably still scream but chooses not to because he knows it hurts his voice. He started screaming again in 2007-2008 and it was followed by his worst vocal period. There could be a connection there.

Remember that he also took vocal lessons after the MCIS tour. My guess is he was really struggling.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

I think he could probably still scream but chooses not to because he knows it hurts his voice. He started screaming again in 2007-2008 and it was followed by his worst vocal period. There could be a connection there.

Remember that he also took vocal lessons after the MCIS tour. My guess is he was really struggling.

I think it's more that he could never really technically sing... And the inefficiencies that he masked with youthful exuberance weren't so forgiving in his 40's and 50's.

[Shadaloo]

On the whole, I'd say yeah. Not everything's perfect, but....James and Jimmy back, a fairly successful tour, new album and singles, one actually surprisingly enjoyable with a decent music video, Machina reissue happening...it's a pretty good time.

I've stopped holding my breath for Billy to ever start singing like he used to. I'm not particularly attached to his new style but I've gotten used to it.

[LoveIsSuicide42]

I could see Billy wrapping the band up after a ~3 or so mediocre-to-decent albums. Ultimately I think we'll wind up looking at the band in three periods, or even as three distinct bands: the original lineup, where the band has classic, legendary status; mostly just Billy, where he damages the band's legacy; and the actual reunion, a redemptive, but never truly great period.

If we can somehow forget, collectively, as a fanbase, that Teargarden even exists, we might even be able to think that the middle "just Billy" era was okay. It's basically the Zelda CD-I of the Pumpkins backlog.

[MonumentsRocks]

I think these are two different issues, his "singing" versus his "voice". His voice seems to still be fine, compared to someone like Vedder, he pretty much screeches out every note he sings these days, live and in the studio. Billy can scream fine, he does live, he kind of does the croaking frog thing which is "proper" screaming, but live and in recordings he doesn't modulate his voice at all. Think of a song like "Anti-Hero" from MTaE, that song would have been 200% better is 1995 Billy was singing it, instead we get 2014 Billy he belts out every syllable. Back in the day he's be quiet and diminutive one second, and then screaming like an angry teenager the next, but these days he's just always loud, with the vocals on top of the guitars, lacking dynamics. This is all by choice, and it's an extension of his growing ego. I think it is one of the reasons why people don't think his current material measures up to the 90's stuff, the affected Billy people liked has been replaced by someone who sounds a lot more cocky.

[Zer0 Hour]

Ghost sucks. Solara sucks. I’m hoping the other six tracks are good but I’m not holding my breath.

That said, the live show was amazing (even with all the stupid Billy The Jesus Of Rock imagery). I would probably go see them again and I know I’ll download at least some of that Machina reissue because I’m a fucking mindless SP zombie when it really gets down to it.

But is it all a turning point for the band? I doubt it. If they eventually put out an interesting album, maybe. But I’m almost 100% certain that this won’t be it.

[paranoid]

His voice sounds bad when viewed on YouTube, but when you see the show in person, it makes sense and sounds great live.. like he sounds like an actual pro live singer.

I love the old voice but also there are some 90’s boots where he sounds like total shit to an obnoxious level. Point being, his voice has always been problematic.

[Oklahoma Sexual]

the new songs, music and lyrics, do not resonate with me. so for me, no. i'm more or less apathetic about the band's future, with a tinge of schadenfreude longing that it all implodes rather drastically.

[Elphenor]

Originally Posted by Razor Star

He isn't Mark E Smith (though there are similarities).

I can't think of a single similarity beyond them both being assholes

well one of them is a dead asshole (RIP MES)

[MonumentsRocks]

Originally Posted by paranoid

His voice sounds bad when viewed on YouTube, but when you see the show in person, it makes sense and sounds great live.. like he sounds like an actual pro live singer.

I love the old voice but also there are some 90’s boots where he sounds like total shit to an obnoxious level. Point being, his voice has always been problematic.

Every band Ive ever seen somehow sounds better in person than when I heard a recording of the show later. Im sure the fact that its f'ing loud has something to do with it. I hear later that they were way off pitch, but never noticed when I was there.

If there's one thing I appreciate about Billy apparently attempting to sing properly is that I think the live performances are better for it. The early 90s stuff was pretty good buy by 2000 he was sounding rather rough, barely trying to hit the notes. I'm glad he came back from that, because at the time I thought be might be "done", like Vedder.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

I think it's more that he could never really technically sing... And the inefficiencies that he masked with youthful exuberance weren't so forgiving in his 40's and 50's.

tbh I'm not entirely sure what is up with Billy and his voice. If you listen to the way he sings on Gish, he is actually singing technically way more correctly than on any other album. For some reason after Gish, he decided his "natural" voice was nasally and just gave up singing in his lower register for the most part. Then as time went on, he became a worse and worse singer.

however, for a bad singer, he has done a pretty respectable array of singing styles I think

[fuzzyroes]

He's a product of the 90's. In the 90's, singers with little ability could become famous... In no other era would a guy like Billy Corgan or Mark McGrath become famous... I think maybe that's why Smashing Pumpkins have been showcasing McGrath in their live shows and music videos.

They share that trait.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

He's a product of the 90's. In the 90's, singers with little ability could become famous... In no other era would a guy like Billy Corgan or Mark McGrath become famous... I think maybe that's why Smashing Pumpkins have been showcasing McGrath in their live shows and music videos.

They share that trait.

Well, them and Britney Spears...

***The only TV appearance that she actually sang live in***



It's little wonder why she started lip-syncing lol