Christians and Pumpkins

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by sleeper

this question on hell aside, the bible is more inconsistent with its depiction of god than any other single thing, i think. im no bible scholar but i read the bible and accompanying literature for the first time this summer, fully and fairly, and i was stunned at just how totally incoherent a picture the bible painted. everything was a mess and you could, i firmly believe, find support for most anything if you adopted the same lax intellectual standards (or same willingness to adopt different standards as one sees fit) that the religious do and have always done

After years and years of studying the Bible, I've found it to be quite consistent all the way through. As I stated before, the problem lies, not with the Bible, but with Christendom's presupposed belief system. That is what clashes.

However, it would take pages and pages for me to give examples of this consistency and quite frankly, the internet doesn't seem to be the most favorable medium in which to present such evidence.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

"Enlightenment" is a wholly relative term, though.

high levels of education are in strong negative correlation with religiosity. go from high school only to degree and religiosity diminishes. degree to masters, and it diminishes further still, as from masters to phd and phd to the highest levels of ones field, like the members of academies of sciences, where religiosity is at like 2%.

i feel silly mentioning stuff like this because i dont mean to hold it up as proof in itself that religiosity is for the dumb or something, but i do mean to point to a general trend which, i think, speaks to the fact that religion, like all mythology, brews in ignorance. i do think that any belief that has something to fear from education and greater factual understanding of the world might not be too good a belief.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by

it doesn't. Fundamental first thing you learn in chemistry 101 - everything always breaks down to its simplest, smallest energy state.

A fucking blade of grass.. let alone a human being is so mind boggle-ingly complex, there is absolutely no way i will believe it happened randomly.. coincidentally, or without reason. The means to get where we are today are debatable (evolution vs creation) but there is no doubt in my mind that god was the driving force that got us here.

But, i am not a biologist. I am a nuclear engineer. I would probably bore the hell out of you if i started talking about nuclear physics, but trust me... there are examples in that field equally as difficult to believe in happening randomly.

There are some strong arguments I have against evolution, but I'm getting a bit tired, so I'll leave that for another day.

However, I agree with you wholeheartedly -- there is absolutely no way life came about without an intelligent designer.

No one would question whether this computer was built by someone, after all.

[D.]

Originally Posted by ChristJesus

"Rejoice in the LORD, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright.

Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.

Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.

For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.

Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.

For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.

The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.

From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.

He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.

There is no king saved by the multitude of an host: a mighty man is not delivered by much strength.

An horse is a vain thing for safety: neither shall he deliver any by his great strength.

Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;

To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.

Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield.

For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name.

Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee."

Psalm 33(s1ne?)

I love you, Christ Jesus!

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by sleeper

i feel silly mentioning stuff like this because i dont mean to hold it up as proof in itself that religiosity is for the dumb or something, but i do mean to point to a general trend which, i think, speaks to the fact that MOST religion, like all mythology, brews in ignorance. i do think that any belief that has something to fear from education and greater factual understanding of the world might not be too good a belief.

Fixed that for you.

Education doesn't threaten my beliefs -- it adds to them.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." - Hebrews 11:1

The apostle Paul here defines something that many have trouble with. Faith seems nonsensical to some because they cannot physically see God.

But for an example: one cannot see the wind. But one does see the "evident demonstration" of it upon the trees or on your skin. Thus, it is a reality, just as real as the trees that are swaying through that breeze.

Faith is similar to this -- a discerning man or woman sees evidence of God's existence in many things. They are absolutely sure that he is real and really cares based upon solid evidence.

if it derives from evidence and is rational, then its not faith. we dont need faith to believe that, say, the world is spherical or that the sky is blue, we believe it because it is supported by evidence. faith is exactly that which one believes in without need of evidence -- or, in a contemporary sense, all to often its what one beliefs in spite of the evidence, as is the case with creationism.

the fact of the existence of the universe or life does not necessarily point to a god the same way a tree swaying would point to wind. i think this is just a casual inference that comes from our innate tendency to see agency in everything (there have been good studies on this), and, as is often said, does nothing to answer the question of where this creator god himself came from.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

Jesus himself called his father "the only true God" numerous times. That statement implies that all other gods (and in turn, all other belief systems based upon these) are false. This is thoroughly born out in the history of Israel, when fighters against the false god Baal (and others) were defeated soundly by this only true God, Jehovah.

so other gods exist, but the god of the bible is the only "true" one? id have a hard time calling up the exact passages, but i remember on a number of occassions god speaking and implicitly recognizing the existence of other gods. he had power over them, but they existed, and not in the sense that they were human constructs, but actual metaphysical gods.

also, when the israelites lost to other tribes, was that also gods doing? i remember that it was, that god "hardened hearts" left and right or just otherwise made it so theyd lose. i find this unintelligible and incompatible with free will, which is essential for christianity to make sense. i could go on on why i find this nonsensical if you like, i do think its important.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

Then if you believe that, it is truth for you. Not for me.

Like I said, my faith is a modified Christianity. I REFUSE to accept that there is only one God, and the rest are false. Makes no sense to me.

MY God is the only God I think I'll ever meet, because He's the only one I truly believe in and have faith in... but that doesn't mean the rest don't exist to those who believe in them.

Relativism... that's what it's called, right? I had a similar discussion with a Christian friend of mine, and he told me I believe in religious relativism. Then told me I was wrong and he worries for my soul. I lol'd.

what beliefs (or practices) are necessary, at a minimum, for one to call themselves christian? ive seen all kinds of definitions, each looser than the next. sometimes merely being a good, honest person is enough to make one a christian, but thats obviously insufficient. is belief in an afterlife and that jesus is the son of god enough? because i dont think you can call yourself a christian if you just pick and chose. i think all christians do this, and that thats a problem, but not like this. maybe youre just a person that likes the stories in the bible for their moral message. maybe you like the tradition and acts of the church. in either case id be hesitant to call myself a christian on these or like grounds

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

Evolution doesn't make an awful lot of sense to me. You mean to tell me that DNA occurred by chance?

you dont accept evolution?

this has insulting connotations, but honestly: would you call yourself a fundamentalist?

also:

what denomination do you identify you beliefs with, if any?

how popular is this view in your inner circle of religious friends/at your church?

i am just curious and dont mean anything by this or have some trap waiting

[DeviousJ]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

No one would question whether this computer was built by someone, after all.

How do you know god didn't build that computer?

[Nate the Grate]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/sc...&ex=1344744000

[<sp3]

back to the pumpkins..

in some interview somewhere i cant remember billy states that he likes not going too deep into what his songs are written about, that lets the listener take what they will from it and make it mean something special to them (or something like that).

i think many of his lyrics obviously come from someone who believes in, at least to some extent, the christian god, and it makes me feel great when i can pick them out and make my own interpretation on them.

[<sp3]

Originally Posted by Nate the Grate

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/sc...&ex=1344744000

that article is amusing, but completely ridiculous.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by

oh boy, i could talk about this forever. I feel that it is science that made me prove gods existence, in my mind at least. I graduated with a mechanical engineering degree, and now work as a nuclear engineer for the department of defense. The more and more i learn about the intricacies of the inner workings of science, (nuclear physics and other extremely complicated things) the more i am completely blown away at how perfectly this universe has been put together. After learning a lot about what makes this world work, i can arrive at no other conclusion than the fact that it simply cannot be random. Things would not work this well were it not for a plan. I truly believe that it had to have been God that planned it all to work this way from the beginning.

Funny, because usually the more people learn about science, the more separated they are from god. For me it was the complete opposite.

Since i had this epiphany, i have started to notice other things, almost on a daily basis, that bring me closer to god. Some days i will get lost in the concept of how big the universe is, and how many stars there are. Others i will be completely mind-fucked when i think about the emotion of love, and how two otherwise inanimate objects (humans, made mostly of the same elements that rocks and cars are made out of) are capable of feeling affection for each other. A rock can't love another rock.. how did we evolve emotion? my brain cannot comprehend an answer.. it couldnt have happend randomly. There was a divine purpose and reason. (and i am not going to open up the evolution vs religion can of worms, all i am saying is that evolution or creation.. whatever it was.. god was behind it).

Just 3 days ago i looked up at the clouds, and was embarrassed by the fact that i started to tear up.. lost in the concept of how the clouds in the sky, and the colors at sundown are a canvas to which god creates beautiful artwork all day every day, and mostly goes un-noticed. The world is a beautiful place.

NOW TO BRING IT BACK TO THE POINT OF THIS THREAD


I have loved the smashing pumpkins since the very first time i heard them on the radio in 6th grade. They have been my favorite band since the time when i first realized that i loved music. Corgan's music is beautiful, and amazing. How lucky i am, i sometimes think to myself, that i was bourn into a world where music is possible. The science behind it, the properties of air that allow for sound waves to travel thru them. The natural harmonics that can be proven with math that they sound just right. We could have just as easily been bourn into a universe where music as we know it is impossible.


/ramble.

honestly, ive never understood this thinking but i take it seriously because it seems to motivate so many. so many seem to see the amazing complexity (or whatever) of the universe and automatically infer god. i think its just a bad inference, frankly, and philosophically naive.

for one this was always the case, but with things that have now been reclaimed by rational understanding. before it used to be that, not physics or whatever, but the diversity and complexity of life -- thousands of species! the wonders of the human body! -- was incontrovertible proof of the hand of god. now, with the theory of evolution, that diversity and complexity is fully, rationally, and naturalistically explained, and inferring god here is a redundancy at very best.

two, this doesnt explain god himself. where did he come from? the world he created (ahem) is so marvelous and ingenious, so i guess hes even more marvelous and ingenious! so marvelous and ingenious that i feel that, wow, some truly amazing god must have created him... ok then what created that god? and so on. this line of argument is probably familiar to you and youll say: god is the uncreated by definition, the uncaused cause. but why are we allowed to say that he is uncaused, in all his splendor, and not that the world is uncaused, in all its splendor? at best this is just arbitrary and intellectually unsatisfying (to say the least). but say that god created us and he wasnt created: then according to what plan did he create us? what values were guiding his decisions? wouldnt their existence point to something above god? or did he also create those values (nonsensical)?

three, this, for the sake of argument, only points to the existence of a generic "god" (according to whatever definition). ive always really been stunned by the propensity of people to jump from this conclusion (a "god" exists) right into the highly specific dogma of one religion. even if we could prove that a "god" existed, there are still a million degrees of separation between that solid conclusion and, say, believing the koran or bible is the word of god -- and each step requires justification. so, id ask, why didnt you see that splendor and instantly become a muslim? if you were born in the middle east, studied science and came across the wonders of the natural world, can you honestly tell me that you would have still become a christian? i think reason compels you to admit that you wouldve become a muslim, and that should hammer home the arbitrary nature of ones religion, an "accident of geography" as its said.

theres also shit like "99.9% of all species have gone extinct (not the best designer, to say the least)" and a million other things to say but im tired

[D.]

i grew up in a pretty strict Baptist home.

the main issue with secular music (and even "Christian rock") was that it didn't glorify God, and that the beat/rhythm encouraged dancing, which could be seen as sensual/sexual (whether that be swaying of the hips, etc).
Which is why all we were allowed were hymns (with piano and, say, acoustic guitar SOMETIMES), etc

I can see where this makes sense, however this is one of the things I don't really hold to today. Doctrinally, I still hold to the things of the Baptist faith, but when it comes to some of the strict standards like this, I think it tends to be a side issue that gets blown out of proportion.

[i_adore_adore]

what beliefs (or practices) are necessary, at a minimum, for one to call themselves christian? ive seen all kinds of definitions, each looser than the next. sometimes merely being a good, honest person is enough to make one a christian, but thats obviously insufficient. is belief in an afterlife and that jesus is the son of god enough? because i dont think you can call yourself a christian if you just pick and chose. i think all christians do this, and that thats a problem, but not like this. maybe youre just a person that likes the stories in the bible for their moral message. maybe you like the tradition and acts of the church. in either case id be hesitant to call myself a christian on these or like grounds

That's actually a very good point. Which is probably why I call myself a "modified Christian," just to be safe. I base my beliefs on what I know about Christianity, but to some I'm probably very un-Christian.

Also, you bring up some very excellent points that I hadn't thought of before in your last post. Interesting. And yet... no matter how the universe came about, something had to come before it... that sort of thing. Like, how did it happen? If not by a divine God, then how? And what created THAT cause? I'm not trying to say there aren't answers to my questions to prove a point in faith's favor. I'm genuinely curious what the explanation of the universe is in your mind.

[JSP552003]

Originally Posted by sleeper

what beliefs (or practices) are necessary, at a minimum, for one to call themselves christian? ive seen all kinds of definitions, each looser than the next. sometimes merely being a good, honest person is enough to make one a christian, but thats obviously insufficient. is belief in an afterlife and that jesus is the son of god enough? because i dont think you can call yourself a christian if you just pick and chose. i think all christians do this, and that thats a problem, but not like this. maybe youre just a person that likes the stories in the bible for their moral message. maybe you like the tradition and acts of the church. in either case id be hesitant to call myself a christian on these or like grounds

Jesus said love the lord your god with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself. that's what christianity is based on.

and as far as evolution goes, i believe microevolution is true as it is proven, but not macroevolution

[sh sh shayne]

Originally Posted by skipgo

I'm a Christian and have always loved this band

Actually, there was talk on listessa about the lyrics relating to some stuff that Elie Wiesel had written, and so i checked out a book of his where he'd written about the "emptiness of God". If billy meant it in the same context as Wiesel, i believe that line to have been misinterpreted by many. Wiesel spoke of the lonlieness of God, as there was no one else who could relate to what being God was like. Or something like that. It's been a long time, I could be completely screwing that up; but that's what i remember of it. Emptiness is Lonlieness = God is empty just like me = God is lonley just like me.

anyway.

Yeah, I think it's stupid when Christians go after music. It usually amounts to nothing more than a bunch of holier than thou types trying to feel superior. I'm a Christian in my beliefs, but I don't like aligning myself with the hypocrasy that is rampant in the Church.

Yeah i used to be forced to go to church and the pastor or w/e he's called would always comment on my shirts. I'd usually where a nin or a tool shirt but one day i wore the zero shrit. And he's all oh the smashing pumpkins... Yes if you listen to them your life really means zero.... You see unless it has to do with god music is pointless, Sing out towards jesus to be saved, not simply to bask in self doubt and pity.

Such douchebaggery made me lol in his face, and that was the last time i was ever forced to go.
Goodtimes.

[Tristessa274]

A recurring theme I've seen with very religious people is the dismissal of all music if it is not praising God. I don't really understand this. As long as it isn't anti-religion or Satanic, why do these people have a problem with it? Does it mean everything in their lives has to relate to God? Or do they believe that music specifically should be religious in nature? I really am wondering about this, because my parents weren't the least bit religious nor did they ever care about what kind of music I listened to.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

That's actually a very good point. Which is probably why I call myself a "modified Christian," just to be safe. I base my beliefs on what I know about Christianity, but to some I'm probably very un-Christian.

Also, you bring up some very excellent points that I hadn't thought of before in your last post. Interesting. And yet... no matter how the universe came about, something had to come before it... that sort of thing. Like, how did it happen? If not by a divine God, then how? And what created THAT cause? I'm not trying to say there aren't answers to my questions to prove a point in faith's favor. I'm genuinely curious what the explanation of the universe is in your mind.

yeah i like that you qualified that as you did. i think if "cultural christian" or "moral christian" were popularized as categories, youd see a lot of people adopt them. people say theyre christian out of expediency, some of the time, and out of simple ignorance of there being such a thing as holding some iconic christian values while not, you know, believing that jesus walked on water.

i dont know the answer to that question. i just dont. i think its totally alright to just not know and have your position be not knowing. we all want these answers but intellectual honesty forces us (ok, some of us) to not just make up answers in lieu of a satisfying conclusion based on reason.

i will say, though, that while i technically remain agnostic on this i am becoming more and more convinced by this idea that things "just are" and that this whole idea of things needing a "cause" as being kind of nonsensical and a false choice. i dont accept that its something vs nothing, i think nothingness is impossible or meaningless or irrational at least incomprehensible. (like: did nothingness exist before somethingness? then out of what did that somethingess come from? invoking god here is just ridiculous, i think). i think its really plausible that the universe just is and the idea that it needs a cause is just something that a weird quirk in our psychology generates, where we, as i said, constantly see or assume that theres something (usually some sentient force or being) behind everything (thunder was shit thrown down by an angry thor...)

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by sleeper

so other gods exist, but the god of the bible is the only "true" one? id have a hard time calling up the exact passages, but i remember on a number of occassions god speaking and implicitly recognizing the existence of other gods. he had power over them, but they existed, and not in the sense that they were human constructs, but actual metaphysical gods.

also, when the israelites lost to other tribes, was that also gods doing? i remember that it was, that god "hardened hearts" left and right or just otherwise made it so theyd lose. i find this unintelligible and incompatible with free will, which is essential for christianity to make sense. i could go on on why i find this nonsensical if you like, i do think its important.

The Bible speaks of gods made of wood and stone, which have no power and are worthless. Most, if not all, religions contemporary with Israel in Bible times engaged in some form of idol worship, and notice how the Bible describes these at Psalm 113:4-9:

"Their idols are silver and gold, The work of the hands of earthling man. 5 A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes they have, but they cannot see; 6 Ears they have, but they cannot hear. A nose they have, but they cannot smell. 7 Hands are theirs, but they cannot feel. Feet are theirs, but they cannot walk; They utter no sound with their throat. 8 Those making them will become just like them, All those who are trusting in them. 9 O Israel, trust in Jehovah; He is their help and their shield."

The Bible consistently refers to Jehovah as the only true God, and all other gods to be powerless, and really, imaginary.

In regards to predestination and "hardening hearts," God gave the Israelites plenty of choice in the matter. He told them what would happen if they obeyed (they would be positive benefits) and he also told them what would happen if they disobeyed (there would negative benefits.) In every case when Jehovah exacted judgment in the scriptures, there was warning in advance and time to turn around. The Bible simply does not teach 'fate' -- humans have always had and always will have free will.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by JSP552003

Jesus said love the lord your god with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself. that's what christianity is based on.

so thats it right? if i do that i have the right to call myself a christian? if i believe in anything beyond that am i "more" christian or a "better" or "truer" christian?

can i be a homosexual and be a christian?

and as far as evolution goes, i believe microevolution is true as it is proven, but not macroevolution

out of curiosity, how old do you believe the world is?

i mean do you believe that god created all of the species up until a given point (dont know where you believe micro-evolution becomes macro-) and then let them run on their own or something? because that doesnt seem any better than believing that he took them all the way.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by sleeper

you dont accept evolution?

this has insulting connotations, but honestly: would you call yourself a fundamentalist?

also:

what denomination do you identify you beliefs with, if any?

how popular is this view in your inner circle of religious friends/at your church?

i am just curious and dont mean anything by this or have some trap waiting

Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian fundamentalists, but not in the extreme sense that that designation has come to have. We simply rely on the Bible as the ultimate source of truth, and do not go beyond what the Scriptures provide.

This view of creation is universal amongst Witnesses.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

After years and years of studying the Bible, I've found it to be quite consistent all the way through. As I stated before, the problem lies, not with the Bible, but with Christendom's presupposed belief system. That is what clashes.

However, it would take pages and pages for me to give examples of this consistency and quite frankly, the internet doesn't seem to be the most favorable medium in which to present such evidence.

i, as a rule, feel like i should defer to you, as, however fully i read the bible, i did only read it once and im not so well versed on all the theology (although i view that as in asset often enough). but i still feel like you shouldnt need a decoder ring to get the more or less true message out of the bible and im very suspicious of peoples habit of rationalization and selectivity in their approach to it.

i wrote on this before and ill just link you to it
http://forums.netphoria.org/showpost...8&postcount=32
id really like it, honestly, if you could address some of those points. im not looking for THE answer to those objections (assuming one exists), just your own personal view on them.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by sleeper

i, as a rule, feel like i should defer to you, as, however fully i read the bible, i did only read it once and im not so well versed on all the theology (although i view that as in asset often enough). but i still feel like you shouldnt need a decoder ring to get the more or less true message out of the bible and im very suspicious of peoples habit of rationalization and selectivity in their approach to it.

i wrote on this before and ill just link you to it
http://forums.netphoria.org/showpost...8&postcount=32
id really like it, honestly, if you could address some of those points. im not looking for THE answer to those objections (assuming one exists), just your own personal view on them.

It would literally take me hours to work all the 'problems' you come up with in that single post alone, and it's certainly too late right now to even begin to attempt it.

But after reading that once, it seems like there are a lot of things which are, at best, misunderstandings of the context and / or what was meant by Bible writers and God himself, whenever he infers something about his nature. You seem to be a critical thinker.

There's definitely not any special code that one needs to get truth out of the Bible. The best place to start is just by having the right attitude about it -- wanting to learn and seeking answers accordingly.

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by sleeper

i dont know the answer to that question. i just dont. i think its totally alright to just not know and have your position be not knowing. we all want these answers but intellectual honesty forces us (ok, some of us) to not just make up answers in lieu of a satisfying conclusion based on reason.

i will say, though, that while i technically remain agnostic on this i am becoming more and more convinced by this idea that things "just are" and that this whole idea of things needing a "cause" as being kind of nonsensical and a false choice. i dont accept that its something vs nothing, i think nothingness is impossible or meaningless or irrational at least incomprehensible. (like: did nothingness exist before somethingness? then out of what did that somethingess come from? invoking god here is just ridiculous, i think). i think its really plausible that the universe just is and the idea that it needs a cause is just something that a weird quirk in our psychology generates, where we, as i said, constantly see or assume that theres something (usually some sentient force or being) behind everything (thunder was shit thrown down by an angry thor...)

you might find this theory interesting - the universe is inifinite in time and space. what does this mean?

the big bang may not have been the FIRST big bang. right now the universe is expanding at an alarming rate and has been since the big bang because there's nothing outside the universe (the void) to slow it down, or so the current theory goes. and so it will continue to expand.

however, the universe only has so much mass, and eventually, this mass will be stretched to its fullest, and at this time, the universe will slow, stop, then start collapsing on itself just as a star does after its exhausted. soon, it will collapse to a microscopic point, and then BOOM! It happens again.

The theory goes that this could be happening over and over and over again, creating new universes each time. Therefore, the universe is infinite, it has and always will . . . be.

I forget the name of this theory but I really like it.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

you might find this theory interesting - the universe if inifinite in time and space. what does this mean?

the big bang may not have been the FIRST big bang. right now the universe is expanding at an alarming rate and has been since the first big bang because there's nothing outside the universe (the void) to slow it down, or so the current theory goes. and so it will continue to expand.

however, the universe only has so much mass, and eventually, this mass will be stretched to its fullest, and at this time, the universe will slow, stop, then start collapsing on itself just as a star does after its exhausted. soon, it will collapse to a microscopic point, and then BOOM! It happens again.

The theory goes that this could be happening over and over and over again, creating new universes each time. Therefore, the universe is infinite, it has and always will . . . be.

I forget the name of this theory but I really like it.

Kind of fatalistic.

But I've heard of that theory before. Taken from Wiki:

" * brane cosmology models in which inflation is due to the movement of branes in string theory; the pre-big bang model; the ekpyrotic model, in which the Big Bang is the result of a collision between branes; and the cyclic model, a variant of the ekpyrotic model in which collisions occur periodically.
* chaotic inflation, in which inflation events start here and there in a random quantum-gravity foam, each leading to a bubble universe expanding from its own big bang.

Proposals in the last two categories see the Big Bang as an event in a much larger and older universe, or multiverse, and not the literal beginning."

[JSP552003]

Originally Posted by sleeper

so thats it right? if i do that i have the right to call myself a christian? if i believe in anything beyond that am i "more" christian or a "better" or "truer" christian?

i do not believe there is such a thing as being "more" of a christian or a "better" or "truer" christian as it's not a competition. it all really comes down to your relationship with jesus. also i'm not sure what you mean by believing anything beyond that because that pretty much sums up everything jesus was teaching

Originally Posted by sleeper

can i be a homosexual and be a christian?

honestly i believe you can. i do, however, believe homosexuality to be a sin and please understand that i'm not trying to condemn or judge anyone. i believe that most christians over look the fact that all sin is the same in god's eyes and try to put sins in different categories. i mean obviously murder (and i'm not comparing homosexuality to murder at all! because that would be absurd so please don't think that) has totally different consequences than say gossip but the bottom line is it's still sin. the bible says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god. we make mistakes. even after you're saved you're going to mess up i promise you that from my own experience. and that doesn't make you not a christian, i believe that problem is when you KNOW you're sinning and yet you continue to do it.

Originally Posted by sleeper

out of curiosity, how old do you believe the world is?

i mean do you believe that god created all of the species up until a given point (dont know where you believe micro-evolution becomes macro-) and then let them run on their own or something? because that doesnt seem any better than believing that he took them all the way.

i'm really not sure. according to the bible around 6,000 but i know i don't believe we evolved over billions and billions of years. i'm not sure we have the same definitions of micro and macro evolution. micro is evolution on a small scale and we've obviously seen this i mean look at all the different species of dogs. yes they've changed and evolved but the point is its still a dog. macroevolution tells us a rock turned into a human over billions of years on its own. see what i mean?

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

The Bible speaks of gods made of wood and stone, which have no power and are worthless. Most, if not all, religions contemporary with Israel in Bible times engaged in some form of idol worship, and notice how the Bible describes these at Psalm 113:4-9:

"Their idols are silver and gold, The work of the hands of earthling man. 5 A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes they have, but they cannot see; 6 Ears they have, but they cannot hear. A nose they have, but they cannot smell. 7 Hands are theirs, but they cannot feel. Feet are theirs, but they cannot walk; They utter no sound with their throat. 8 Those making them will become just like them, All those who are trusting in them. 9 O Israel, trust in Jehovah; He is their help and their shield."

The Bible consistently refers to Jehovah as the only true God, and all other gods to be powerless, and really, imaginary.

yeah ive always found that interesting. i read that one of the novel things about jehovah was that he was metaphysical and not physical. basically all the other gods to that point (in that area or in the world, i forget) were (or resided in) physical objects, and that if you, say, smashed one, that god would basically "die."

honestly, how often does god refer to other gods as being imaginary (not necessarily that word, that concept)? the net impression i got was that they were just lesser, inferior gods -- gods you could pray or appeal to, gods with powers, but not the real mccoy like jehovah was.

In regards to predestination and "hardening hearts," God gave the Israelites plenty of choice in the matter. He told them what would happen if they obeyed (they would be positive benefits) and he also told them what would happen if they disobeyed (there would negative benefits.) In every case when Jehovah exacted judgment in the scriptures, there was warning in advance and time to turn around. The Bible simply does not teach 'fate' -- humans have always had and always will have free will.

i dont really buy this, unfortunately. i remember when they were first leaving egypt god would deliberately make things difficult for them in order to teach them a lesson or something, not as punishment (so god does punish/reward us in our lives? not only after? the new testament seems to say the opposite), like how he repeatedly hardened the heart of the pharaoh to resist moses's appeals and keep the israelites there. sometimes (if i recall) he both hardened pharoahs heart (basically making the decision for him) and then punished egypt for his decision with some plague.

i remember similar things where god both personally creates some situation, directly or indirectly, and then hands our rewards and punishments accordingly. im really starting to wish i wrote down all these references so i could speak with authority and not just say "i think i remember," but i think i remember (ehghhhhh) god making someone (non israelite) do something and then later lambasting him for being wicked and then killing him in punishment -- while maybe letting the israelites massacre every inhabitant of his city (women and children *******d, as god explicitly pointed out on more than one occasion) for good measure

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by JSP552003

i do not believe there is such a thing as being "more" of a christian or a "better" or "truer" christian as it's not a competition. it all really comes down to your relationship with jesus. also i'm not sure what you mean by believing anything beyond that because that pretty much sums up everything jesus was teaching




honestly i believe you can. i do, however, believe homosexuality to be a sin and please understand that i'm not trying to condemn or judge anyone. i believe that most christians over look the fact that all sin is the same in god's eyes and try to put sins in different categories. i mean obviously murder (and i'm not comparing homosexuality to murder at all! because that would be absurd so please don't think that) has totally different consequences than say gossip but the bottom line is it's still sin. the bible says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god. we make mistakes. even after you're saved you're going to mess up i promise you that from my own experience. and that doesn't make you not a christian, i believe that problem is when you KNOW you're sinning and yet you continue to do it.




i'm really not sure. according to the bible around 6,000 but i know i don't believe we evolved over billions and billions of years. i'm not sure we have the same definitions of micro and macro evolution. micro is evolution on a small scale and we've obviously seen this i mean look at all the different species of dogs. yes they've changed and evolved but the point is its still a dog. macroevolution tells us a rock turned into a human over billions of years on its own. see what i mean?

Wouldn't this simply be variation in species and not evolution of any kind?