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Old 07-20-2007, 06:24 PM   #1
russian iha
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Default "Machina I" - best pumpkins album

I just wanted to know, how many people here seriously support this thesis as I do. I will repeat few things I said before to sum up my personal experience of the album.

For me it's a deep record with lots of psychological layers and complex relationship issues that had a positive impact on music. Actually it extends beyond the music for me, it adds a different dimension to it, that I feel connected to myself.

Emotional environment within the band changed and I'm pretty sure something changed between Darcy, James, Billy during recording of Machina. The songs from arising screamed hope and desire to break through the struggles no matter what cost. And maybe by second half of 99 James realised that him giving band 2nd chance didn't work and he distanced himself from Billy, and Darcy's being fired - all that changed the mood from realistic "it's really hard to but we'll break through this because we're together now" approach to some bittersweet feeling of everything not even crashing down, but already crashed.

And the songs (BSBT, The Imploding Voice as best examples) survived only because they were actually good songs, and it was a pity to waste them. But they changed meeting new conditions, the energy of the songs reversed to became more chaotic and robotic, feeling like it was dead and gone. Songs sustained smile and their upbeat force, but it was really painful for Billy to still be playing them as if it was still the new beginning of the band. And he reversed mood (BSBT, from riot to dead mourning) or buried song's energy in production (Imploding Voice or Wound). And I think it was intended.

That's why I consider M2 being a shallow and bleak album that falls apart in hands because it doesn't sounds like an instant capture of band's situation. In Machina I we feel how Billy (and on the background and through him - the band) felt right in the middle of 1999. M2 is just good music, nothing more.

Machina I is also most mature SP album in terms of songwriting for me, though it sometimes lacks SD/MCIS rollercoaster dynamics - there's not a single song that I would want to leave off or add to the album. Billy said on Storytellers that someone said his songwriting is really cold on the album, and I think it's only for good - Try, Try, Try seem cold and dead, but if you give it a chance - you'll hear that Billy tears himself apart while staying seemingly calm - because of James feeling his way and Billy not knowing what to do with it anymore. Songs like This Time, Age of Innocence, With Every Light serve as the most touching and sadly lighthearted in pumpkins repertoire.

It's a beautiful album that means a lot to me, I listen to it every day and I am still not tired of it, and hopefully won't ever.

Considering the endless bashing of the album I don't expected to get that much support, though I really hope someone shares my opinion.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:25 PM   #2
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You're right. This is their best work, along with SD.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:26 PM   #3
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Just because the songs mean a lot to you or exemplify the spirit of the band at the time doesn't make it objectively good

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:29 PM   #4
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I don't necessarily agree with you. Machina isn't my favorite, but I love it still. I think you pretty much summed up what is great about it.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:30 PM   #5
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Default I agree

I also feel it is the best and most deep + mature SP album. It is my favorite album of all time. I love M2 as well, but M1 is much better overall. There are some of us that appreciate the excellence of Machina. You aren't alone!

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogfighter28
Just because the songs mean a lot to you or exemplify the spirit of the band at the time doesn't make it objectively good
There is no objectivity in music. Consensus, yes, objectivity, no.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:32 PM   #7
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i was in the mood for machina I around 2005. not so much now.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogfighter28
Just because the songs mean a lot to you or exemplify the spirit of the band at the time doesn't make it objectively good
It's really hard to say what an objectively good song is. I love every song off the album, but it won't be good to begin with "aaah, With Every Light is better than Disarm", because I can't prove it objectively along with the opposite either. I just want to stay against the opinion that MACHINA has (a) bad production (I stated why this kind of production seems to me a neccessary thing to have been done); (b) bad songwriting (as mature as ever, though not that obviously diverse for the first look); (c) has no spirit backing it up or lacks any energy.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:34 PM   #9
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dogfighter just likes to be dumb.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:39 PM   #10
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I disagree, however, good post russian iha.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:41 PM   #11
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I also wonder why people consider Machina to have mature songwriting. I feel many people just think darker and murkier and more complex means mature, but I'd argue that Siamese Dream or Adore have much more restraint and composure in that department, resulting in better songs.

Also, if it is mature, I wonder why the lyrics were so bad.

"You know I'm not dead!!!"
"My tearz upon the fading ink"
"radio radio radio radio radio radio WHAT IS IT YOU WANT!?!?"
"Behind a wall of caller ID"
"One more cherry cola"
"Pop tart, whats our mission?"
"If I were dead would my records sell/could you even tell/is it just as well" (just a terrible juvenile rhyme there)
"Everywhere you are" approximately 100 times
"wait i will wait, taste i will taste, run i will run" c'mon, throw some variety in there dude

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about loving Machina, but saying its their most mature songwriting is very silly.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russian iha
I just wanted to know, how many people here seriously support this thesis as I do. I will repeat few things I said before to sum up my personal experience of the album.

For me it's a deep record with lots of psychological layers and complex relationship issues that had a positive impact on music. Actually it extends beyond the music for me, it adds a different dimension to it, that I feel connected to myself.

Emotional environment within the band changed and I'm pretty sure something changed between Darcy, James, Billy during recording of Machina. The songs from arising screamed hope and desire to break through the struggles no matter what cost. And maybe by second half of 99 James realised that him giving band 2nd chance didn't work and he distanced himself from Billy, and Darcy's being fired - all that changed the mood from realistic "it's really hard to but we'll break through this because we're together now" approach to some bittersweet feeling of everything not even crashing down, but already crashed.

And the songs (BSBT, The Imploding Voice as best examples) survived only because they were actually good songs, and it was a pity to waste them. But they changed meeting new conditions, the energy of the songs reversed to became more chaotic and robotic, feeling like it was dead and gone. Songs sustained smile and their upbeat force, but it was really painful for Billy to still be playing them as if it was still the new beginning of the band. And he reversed mood (BSBT, from riot to dead mourning) or buried song's energy in production (Imploding Voice or Wound). And I think it was intended.

That's why I consider M2 being a shallow and bleak album that falls apart in hands because it doesn't sounds like an instant capture of band's situation. In Machina I we feel how Billy (and on the background and through him - the band) felt right in the middle of 1999. M2 is just good music, nothing more.

Machina I is also most mature SP album in terms of songwriting for me, though it sometimes lacks SD/MCIS rollercoaster dynamics - there's not a single song that I would want to leave off or add to the album. Billy said on Storytellers that someone said his songwriting is really cold on the album, and I think it's only for good - Try, Try, Try seem cold and dead, but if you give it a chance - you'll hear that Billy tears himself apart while staying seemingly calm - because of James feeling his way and Billy not knowing what to do with it anymore. Songs like This Time, Age of Innocence, With Every Light serve as the most touching and sadly lighthearted in pumpkins repertoire.

It's a beautiful album that means a lot to me, I listen to it every day and I am still not tired of it, and hopefully won't ever.

Considering the endless bashing of the album I don't expected to get that much support, though I really hope someone shares my opinion.
I completely disagree with you. I think MACHINA is the hands-down worst album Smashing Pumpkins ever released. Do I like it? Yes. But still, it's the worst to me by just about all measurements.

MACHINA is over-processed, tedious, and even MORE pretentious than your average Pumpkins album.

For me, the ordering is as follows at this point:
1. Siamese Dream
2. Machina II (<-- uncommon placement)
3. Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness
4. Adore (very close behind MCIS)
5. Gish
6. Zeitgeist
7. MACHINA

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:50 PM   #13
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I do think SIYL is one of their best songs. I'll give you that.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:50 PM   #14
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I agree with much you said, there is a lot of depth to the album emotionally after what had been a long journey together. I remember that storyteller's part well, and I can hear that to in his songwriting. I feel some of that side in Zeitgeist; this harrowing depth of subtle emptiness, the lost undertone is seemingly more noticeable when it doesn't seem to come across so heartfelt as the prior albums. I really like Machina, it is so unique, but that part of the Pumpkins story really does not mean much to me when put against SD and MCIS where personal connection makes them beyond comparison (within SP's music).

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Trashbirds
I completely disagree with you. I think MACHINA is the hands-down worst album Smashing Pumpkins ever released. Do I like it? Yes. But still, it's the worst to me by just about all measurements.

MACHINA is over-processed, tedious, and even MORE pretentious than your average Pumpkins album.

For me, the ordering is as follows at this point:
1. Siamese Dream
2. Machina II (<-- uncommon placement)
3. Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness
4. Adore (very close behind MCIS)
5. Gish
6. Zeitgeist
7. MACHINA
good for you. can we get a discussion on this or are we just gonna post HAY GUYZ WHATS YOUR FAVORITEST PUNKINS ALBUMZ?

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bja1288
good for you. can we get a discussion on this or are we just gonna post HAY GUYZ WHATS YOUR FAVORITEST PUNKINS ALBUMZ?
I did discuss it. Then I gave an album list. All you did was post an attack. Now we have two content-free posts. YAY!

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:57 PM   #17
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eh, i didnt think you saying its the worst/overprocessed/that you like siyl added much to the discussion but w/e

As far as my opinion, I think that all pumpkins albums have had their immature moments, with the exception of possibly adore, which is why I mainly just ignore the lyrics... I like to think of it more in the vein of MBV, where its just an instrument adding to the music. This is how you can get past the concept/crappy lyrics and appreciate the album's atmosphere, which is one of the things i think alot of people can appreciate from the album

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogfighter28
"My tearz upon the fading ink"
"radio radio radio radio radio radio WHAT IS IT YOU WANT!?!?"
I always liked these lines. "what is it you want to change? Radio." It's a song about saying good bye. Whether to his mom, or the pumpkins, or mainstream success, or an era of american culture where radio was actually relevant. I always thought that this song was kind of Billy's farewell to the radio. The Pumpkins were coming to an end. The era of music that his band came to fame in was dieing out and the radio was all but a joke at that point unlike what it used to be in the past.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:00 PM   #19
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The reason the radio line is bad is because it hadn't been relevant in so long, and when they stopped playing Billy's music he pitches a hissy fit acting like its a startling development that the radio sucks and that they won't accept him anymore. The whiny, pathos fail of a line "What is it you want to change?" really ticks me off. Also, why does he have to say it like every 2 seconds in the song?

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogfighter28
I also wonder why people consider Machina to have mature songwriting. I feel many people just think darker and murkier and more complex means mature, but I'd argue that Siamese Dream or Adore have much more restraint and composure in that department, resulting in better songs.
I don't think the album is darker, not at all. It has some view that doesn't seem to have ever been appearing before and it didn't appear again later - bittersweet yet lighthearted feeling of letting go, true forgiving. To forgive and maybe try to forget - is the best summary of the album that overshadows all that fictional machina storyline. On MCIS Billy tries to fight every single moment, he feels power in every muscle, on Adore he is on the bottom, completely drained and depressed, not knowing what to do, and machina culminates with forgiveness and pardon, maybe not yet fully christian, but tending to be. Taking Adore storyline continued in Machina - Billy faces failure (in relationship within band or within industry or what is more exact - within himself), and yet he's not proud of it, or tries to proclaim "i am what i am" or any kind of bullshit that any other band would do. He just says "I love you all, I tried, I still try, and will always try to do my best, and wish you best of luck". It's a gracious thing to do, and I really respected him for that, and I think Zeitgeist with it constant fighting if not ruined, but lessened degree of it.

It just has different moods layered one or another. "I of the Mourning" seems like a song that should have been recorded in a single take, but it is completely drained with re-recording (I remember band saying that they wanted to kill Billy because of an enormous time spent on the song) and not because of Billy's perfectionist nature. "Sacred and Profane" seems like an upbeat song, but with that My Bloody Valentine thrown all over it, it just doesn't. I mean the songs ARE NOT what they look like at first sight. And all the bullshit lyrics are meant not to be taken literally, just like Billy said on Q101, "if i were dead/would my records sell" is not what is Billy saying, it's what a fictional persona in HMM song says.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:01 PM   #21
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I think that by songwriting, dogfighter, he means more than just lyrics. I get that feeling when I listen to Machina... that it's more mature musically than anything they've done. It just seems bigger and less juvenile, which is funny because I'll agree with you and say that the lyrics are VERY juvenile. But I think that's sorta the point. There's a certain charm to the "Pop tart, what's our mission" line. I love all the lyrics of "I of the Mourning." Right when I was getting into SP, I had only my burned copy of Mellon Collie from a friend, and when I was deciding which album to get next, I was going to pick Machina because I compared all the albums' lyrics to one another. Machina hit me the hardest and seemed the most poetic and touching and beautiful and heartfelt.

Now, years later, I must say that Machina is probably the least emotional and touching and beautiful and heartfelt of all SP's albums, but for some reason the lyrics still hit me pretty hard. Not like Mellon Collie, Adore, or Siamese Dream, but maybe more than Gish (I never could relate to that album well, even though I rank it third after MCIS and Adore).

Anyway, I think there's just SOMETHING about Machina that you either love or hate. Personally, I love it. I prefer it to Siamese Dream some days, depending on my mood. Now, that doesn't mean that it's BETTER than Siamese Dream, but I'm just saying...

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:01 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Trashbirds
I do think SIYL is one of their best songs. I'll give you that.
Pretty much. I'd say 'For Martha' is my favorite SP song, but SIYL is close behind.

Other than that, I think Machina sucks.... "Radio, radio, radio, radio, radio"... you know there are like 33 radios or something like that in the song?

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:02 PM   #23
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Even if he doesn't mean the line, it still sounds horrible and you should never spit out cliches like "Its just as well" "Could you even tell"

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:04 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billy269
I also feel it is the best and most deep + mature SP album. It is my favorite album of all time. I love M2 as well, but M1 is much better overall. There are some of us that appreciate the excellence of Machina. You aren't alone!
Thanks, I didn't expect to get this kind of supporting reply.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:09 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogfighter28
Even if he doesn't mean the line, it still sounds horrible and you should never spit out cliches like "Its just as well" "Could you even tell"
If there was no cliches, there would be no postmodern, which uses cliches as an art instrument. On lots of shows Billy's smiling during this nursery rhyme.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:12 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i_adore_adore
let's all be nice.

I think that by songwriting, dogfighter, he means more than just lyrics.
I know. I guess I failed to provide examples of the FAILs in the musical category. Here we go:

The Everlasting Gaze: Sleazy, tasteless guitars and horrible acapella break. Terrible song.

Raindrops + Sunshowers: Sounds like an endless loop. Gets annoying. Decent song.

Stand Inside Your Love
: No complaints. Classic.

I of the Mourning: Musically, very strong song. Maybe goes on a smidgen too long and the melodies can be dodgy. Good song.

The Sacred and Profane
: A teeny bit too fuzzed, but charming in its own way. Good song.

Try, Try, Try: Completely unmemorable. Bad song.

Heavy Metal Machine: Unbelievably tedious,repetitive riff that isn't very intersting. Terrible song.

This Time
: Musically, not very memorable but pleasant enough to go along with some good lyrics. Good song.

The Imploding Voice: The fuzz here just doesn't work. Song is too jumpy for its own good. Bad song.

Glass and the Ghost Children: fantastic intro, up to 5 minutes decent music, after the break, dreadfully monotonous and generally annoying. Mediocre song.

Wound: Again, not very memorable, but the music is pleasant and the lyrics are okay. Some of the worst vocals ever. Mediocre song.

The Crying Tree of Mercury: do I need to explain this? Corgan sucks at dirges. He sounds like someone who just listened to the Cure and tried and write a song while crying about his life. Elephant sounds. An atrocity. Decent when acoustic, though.

With Every Light
: This is a very decent arrangement and strong lyrics. Good song.

Blue Skies Bring Tears: also a terrible dirge. The melodies are dreadful. The bassline gets old after the 100th loop. Bad song.

Age of Innocence: Excellent music here, I love the mix of electric fuzz and clean acoustic. Great song.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:12 PM   #27
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What do you want me to say? It IS overprocessed. It IS uber-pretentious.

The Mystery of MACHINA turned out to make next to no sense.

"Heavy Metal Machine" has the most self-absorbed lyrics of any Pumpkins song, and furthermore, it sounds nothing like what I would expect a song named "Heavy Metal Machine" would sound like. As a lot of reviews said, the album built to this as the albums glorious centerpiece, but the centerpiece just wasn't quite right.

"The Crying Tree of Mercury" and "Blue Skies Bring Tears" are probably the most unlistenable 2 songs for me on ANY SP album. The crazy thing is that there are wonderful versions of both of these songs, just not found here.

"Stand Inside Your Love" is a brilliant song with a brilliant video. Almost any Smashing Pumpkins fan, or just music fan, should love this song.

"The Everlasting Gaze" is intense and fun, but also derivative and tacky. The vocals-only part is so reminiscent of "Zero" it almost hurts.

That album was also advertised as a "Return to Rock," which is really what Machina II turned out to be.

"I of the Mourning" is a catchy song with terrible lyrics, but it doesn't stand up to repeated listenings over a short span of time.

Most people on this forum would tell you that even songs like "The Imploding Voice" and "Wound," which are pretty good songs in general, are almost ruined when shoved through the MACHINA production filter.


Where is everyone? If I had made this thread, I'd be torn so many assholes I'd start looking like the Golgothan Shit Demon.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:16 PM   #28
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The Everlasting Gaze is awesome!! I love those sleazy, tasteless guitars and that horrible a capella break. It's so freaking awesome. It cracks me up. God, Billy's voice sucks...

That was all affectionate.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:18 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n-abounds
"Radio, radio, radio, radio, radio"... you know there are like 33 radios or something like that in the song?
It's a different thing. When Billy sings "bring the light" million of times with only two or three vocal variation - it really sucks, it just showcases that he lost an ability to use this kind of songwriting technique. When Billy sings "radio" with a different mood in every word repeat going from the sky to the bottom and back, or on the other hand he sings "blue skies bring tears" with completely droning tone, which is graciously emphasized by gradually and slightly increasing volume and distortion gain - it really touches something deep in the soul. "Bring the Light" doesn't.

 
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:20 PM   #30
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Going through that list of songs, I think I'm going to have to rank Machina a smidgen higher than Zeitgeist. At least it has a personality.

 
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