McCain picks Sarah Palin as VP

[Travis Meeks]

how can this broad believe in Creationism, Alaska is one of the best places in the world to see the earth and evolution in action.

[Travis Meeks]

Well to any sane person with an IQ over 65 Creationism is pretty foolish.

[Travis Meeks]

I know nothing about politics but I guarantee that I could govern Alaska

[Travis Meeks]

ok I'm done here

[SlingeroGuitaro]

Originally Posted by Travis Meeks

I know nothing about politics but I guarantee that I could govern Alaska

post/av

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by Corganist

Ain't gonna happen. If anything, the one advantage to having a woman go up against Biden in the debate is that when (not if) he starts to pull some of the smarmy bullying bullshit he's shown so often on the Judiciary committee, he'll look all the worse for it. Biden is Biden's worst enemy, and I don't think any amount of *cough*plagiarized*cough* knowledge is gonna help him with that.

pffff

Are you joking? The GOP would LOVE for this election to turn into a referendum on Christianity and creationism. I couldn't think of a bigger gift for the GOP than for the Dems to fire a few shots across the bow of Christianity. The religious right don't have much of a dog in this fight right now. They don't have much reason to go to much effort to support McCain right now...but you can guarantee they'll turn out like gangbusters if the question of religion becomes an issue in the campaign. The Dems do NOT want to go there.

who said anything about firing across the bow of "christianity"? itd be firing across the bow of "fundamentalism," or some other such judicious framing.
call me crazy, but, warped as america is, i cant see the revelation that a candidate believes the earth is 6000 years old (if she in fact does, im just assuming based on her creationism) as being a net positive, people simply cannot be that fucking dumb. there are loads of religious nuts out there, sure, but, as i was saying, voting on someone for the second highest office in the land with these beliefs will kinda put the lie to it, i think, people will be forced to cut the shit.

maybe im too optimisitic though. you should be crediting me for having so charitable a view of the voting public, though. in canada, there was a creationist candidate (stockwell day) for a major national party and he was ridiculed and lampooned into early retirement.

[sleeper]

ill also say that im starting to realize that this supposed lock the christian right has on elections in the US is a myth. conventional wisdom says that being anything but grovelling to religious mania is political suicide but i dont really see it anymore. i think the christian right took hold of the republican party with reagan and its been overstaying its welcome ever since, a flash of hysteria with bush notwithstanding. i see their trajectory as towards the door, mainly because theyre a client that is impossible to satisfy. nobody can afford to be on their payroll anymore.

[Nimrod's Son]

sleeper, you do realize that most people who believe in a creator don't subscribe to the 6,000 year theories, right?

[sleeper]

this wasnt about "people who believe in a creator," this was about "creationists." creationists believe in a creator, but they also believe the account of creation in the bible.

besides, the belief that the earth is 6000 years old is just a sample creationist belief, many others would do for what im saying

[AndySlash]

Originally Posted by sleeper

a candidate believes the earth is 6000 years old (if she in fact does, im just assuming based on her creationism)

http://scienceblogs.com/afarensis/20...n_and_the_ala/

The volatile issue of teaching creation science in public schools popped up in the Alaska governor's race this week when Republican Sarah Palin said she thinks creationism should be taught alongside evolution in the state's public classrooms.

Palin was answering a question from the moderator near the conclusion of Wednesday night's televised debate on KAKM Channel 7 when she said, 'Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important, and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.'


The Anchorage Daily News has more:

In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms:
"I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."

She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state's required curriculum.

Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.

"I won't have religion as a litmus test, or anybody's personal opinion on evolution or creationism," Palin said.


*snip*

Palin said she thought there was value in discussing alternatives.

"It's OK to let kids know that there are theories out there," she said in the interview. "They gain information just by being in a discussion."

That was how she was brought up, she said. Her father was a public school science teacher.

"My dad did talk a lot about his theories of evolution," she said. "He would show us fossils and say, 'How old do you think these are?' "

Asked for her personal views on evolution, Palin said, "I believe we have a creator."

She would not say whether her belief also allowed her to accept the theory of evolution as fact.

"I'm not going to pretend I know how all this came to be," she said.

----


I'm doubting she would answer her dad's question with something less than 6,000 years old.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by AndySlash

I'm doubting she would answer her dad's question with something less than 6,000 years old.

i share that doubt in one sense (dont make daddy angry) but not in the more meaningful one (what she believes).

sounds like shes a creationist dancing around the questions. this "its just debate" bullshit is a classic creationist talking point.

[Travis Meeks]

eh, well at least she's open minded.

She's strictly pro-life right?

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by sleeper

pffff

Just watch. Biden's been cut off at the knees now. If he goes negative (as he's so apt to do), then don't think for a second that the GOP won't pull out the "way to pick on a girl, asshole" card. And it'll probably work, since Biden has such a tendency to get nasty and let his mouth get ahead of his brain. It's gonna be hard for Biden to find the right balance I think.

who said anything about firing across the bow of "christianity"? itd be firing across the bow of "fundamentalism," or some other such judicious framing.
call me crazy, but, warped as america is, i cant see the revelation that a candidate believes the earth is 6000 years old (if she in fact does, im just assuming based on her creationism) as being a net positive, people simply cannot be that fucking dumb. there are loads of religious nuts out there, sure, but, as i was saying, voting on someone for the second highest office in the land with these beliefs will kinda put the lie to it, i think, people will be forced to cut the shit.

Being creationist is not a net positive in and of itself. I think you're right in that regard. But, it can become a positive if the fundamentalist right thinks their views and their way of life are under some kind of broader assault, because they'll rally to defend those things. If the question driving the election comes down to whether or not someone who believes in creationism is too stupid to be VP, then it's a winner for the GOP, because fundamentalists are going to turn out and push hard for McCain if for nothing else than to validate their religion. And face it, there are a lot more of them than there are of you.

[JokeyLoki]

Not all creationists think that Earth is only 6000 years old :P

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by Corganist

Just watch. Biden's been cut off at the knees now. If he goes negative (as he's so apt to do), then don't think for a second that the GOP won't pull out the "way to pick on a girl, asshole" card. And it'll probably work, since Biden has such a tendency to get nasty and let his mouth get ahead of his brain. It's gonna be hard for Biden to find the right balance I think.

if she casts herself as "innocent soccer mom" than maybe, but thatd be a mistake for other reasons. i think she'll present herself as strong and bold and capable and all that, out of other political considerations, and then she wont be able to have it both ways if she comes in for tougher treatment.
in any case, youre right to a point. they cant really hit too hard, but i think theyre not as hamstrung as you think, especially if she puts herself out there.

Being creationist is not a net positive in and of itself. I think you're right in that regard. But, it can become a positive if the fundamentalist right thinks their views and their way of life are under some kind of broader assault, because they'll rally to defend those things. If the question driving the election comes down to whether or not someone who believes in creationism is too stupid to be VP, then it's a winner for the GOP, because fundamentalists are going to turn out and push hard for McCain if for nothing else than to validate their religion. And face it, there are a lot more of them than there are of you.

i dont know, it seems like mccain cant really claim the religious the way bush could, where any threat to religious sensibilities translated into direct support for bush. obama is a much more credible candidate on religion, hes comfortable talking about christianity in ways kerry or gore werent, and mccain has never been much of a friend of the religious right. palin maybe changes that equation, but i dont see the logic of the 2004 election with religion, which youre kinda citing, as being so applicable here.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by JokeyLoki

Not all creationists think that Earth is only 6000 years old :P

right, they only believe n - 1 ludicrous things. congratulations to them! earth being 6000 years old? HA, thats ridiculous, of course not... but it was created in seven literal days, dinosaurs shared the earth with makind, and evolution is a myth.


youre a creationist, right?

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by sleeper

i dont know, it seems like mccain cant really claim the religious the way bush could, where any threat to religious sensibilities translated into direct support for bush. obama is a much more credible candidate on religion, hes comfortable talking about christianity in ways kerry or gore werent, and mccain has never been much of a friend of the religious right. palin maybe changes that equation, but i dont see the logic of the 2004 election with religion, which youre kinda citing, as being so applicable here.

I don't really think it's applicable right now. My point is that if Dems make Palin's creationism a big issue that it could become applicable. Right now the fundamentalist right is not gonna go to bat for McCain the same way they did for Bush in 2004, pretty much for the reasons you mentioned. Adding Palin to the ticket doesn't change that much, if at all. But if Palin is somehow made into some kind of proxy for attacks on creationism just because Dems see it as an opportunity to run fundamentalism through the mud a bit, then the fundies will turn out big again in turn.

I'm just saying that the Dems shouldn't stir up the hornet's nest if they don't want to get stung. Right now the religious right are not a factor, because a lot of them are likely staying home. The Democrats need to do what they can to keep them there.

[sppunk]

Originally Posted by sleeper

right, they only believe n - 1 ludicrous things. congratulations to them! earth being 6000 years old? HA, thats ridiculous, of course not... but it was created in seven literal days, dinosaurs shared the earth with makind, and evolution is a myth.

I'm a modified creationist and don't believe any of those things whatsoever. I believe in creation aided by evolution, heavy on the evolution.

Creationist don't necessarily (although most do) take the Bible literally. No idea if Palin does, of course.

That said, I haven't seen any polls detailing the belief in creationist but I'd think an overwhelming majority of the voting public believe in one form or another of creation.

[JokeyLoki]

Originally Posted by sppunk

I'm a modified creationist and don't believe any of those things whatsoever. I believe in creation aided by evolution, heavy on the evolution.

Creationist don't necessarily (although most do) take the Bible literally. No idea if Palin does, of course.

That said, I haven't seen any polls detailing the belief in creationist but I'd think an overwhelming majority of the voting public believe in one form or another of creation.

Yeah, what sppunk said.

[JokeyLoki]

Wow, check out the Hilary boards...

http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/d...ad.php?t=26179
http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/d...splay.php?f=84

[sppunk]

I have a bad feeling people are greatly underestimating the number of women who might vote for Palin just because she has a shriveled-up vag.

Then again, people are ignoring the fact something like 98 percent of Hillary supporters back her because she's pro-choice. Palin's anything but.

[Travis Meeks]

you can believe in God and evolution... evolution can be the mechanics behind a divine power.

[JokeyLoki]

Originally Posted by Travis Meeks

you can believe in God and evolution... evolution can be the mechanics behind a divine power.

Yup.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by sppunk

I'm a modified creationist and don't believe any of those things whatsoever. I believe in creation aided by evolution, heavy on the evolution.

Creationist don't necessarily (although most do) take the Bible literally. No idea if Palin does, of course.

That said, I haven't seen any polls detailing the belief in creationist but I'd think an overwhelming majority of the voting public believe in one form or another of creation.

creationists are not just people who think god created life or whatever, theye people who believe in a literal reading of the creation story in the bible. you guys are using this word way too elastically.

in any case, you cannot both be a creationist in the above sense and accept evolution, the two are mutually exclusive. you can only accept evolution and then concoct some wishful, ad hoc, "creative" interpretation of the book of genesis that superficially coexists with evolution.
typically youll hear something along the lines of god "providing the initial spark and blueprint!" which is pretty in and of itself, but completely at odds with any reasonable interpretation of what the bible says. call that what you will, but its not really christianity anymore, its practically new age garbage

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by JokeyLoki

Wow, check out the Hilary boards...

http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/d...ad.php?t=26179
http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/d...splay.php?f=84

wow that forum is something. i feel like saving it or something, this will be an amazing time capsule in a few years.

but, jesus, those people are off the fucking chains. what a bunch of lunatics. i wonder which one is futureboy, the kind of token representative of hillary's storied hispanic demographic

[sppunk]

Originally Posted by sleeper

creationists are not just people who think god created life or whatever, theye people who believe in a literal reading of the creation story in the bible. you guys are using this word way too elastically.

in any case, you cannot both be a creationist in the above sense and accept evolution, the two are mutually exclusive. you can only accept evolution and then concoct some wishful, ad hoc, "creative" interpretation of the book of genesis that superficially coexists with evolution.
typically youll hear something along the lines of god "providing the initial spark and blueprint!" which is pretty in and of itself, but completely at odds with any reasonable interpretation of what the bible says. call that what you will, but its not really christianity anymore, its practically new age

If you are using creationists as someone who believes the Genesis story literally, then I'm far from one.

I don't believe hardly any of the Old Testament and believe it's mostly fables and sometimes-good storytelling.

I do believe God created the earth and don't believe humans came from tadpoles. I don't believe this all was created in six days or Eve ate a bad apple or anything of the sort.

[sppunk]

Originally Posted by sleeper

wow that forum is something. i feel like saving it or something, this will be an amazing time capsule in a few years.

but, jesus, those people are off the fucking chains. what a bunch of lunatics. i wonder which one is futureboy, the kind of token representative of hillary's storied hispanic demographic

I doubt many of those are actually HRC supporters, and are instead playing them on the Internet.

[bardy]

Originally Posted by JokeyLoki

Wow, check out the Hilary boards...

http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/d...ad.php?t=26179
http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/d...splay.php?f=84

oh dear jesus those ladies are so obnoxious (for the most part)

I would imagine only the fanatics post at messageboards though...

[Mo]

I'm not voting FOR McCain, I'm voting AGAINST Obama.

LOL, are there no third parties anymore?

[bardy]

anyway I can't imagine a runner up miss alaska (or whatever)-turned-politician who didn't have some skeletons in her closet.

I hope she doesn't win any votes because she has a young child with downs syndrome. I doubt she spends much time with her children anyway.

God the beauty pagent crap just rubs me the wrong way. It screams IIIII NEEEED POOOWER AND ATTENTTIOOON