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Old 04-13-2002, 08:24 PM   #1
Gooch
 
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Post "The Pumpkins are the gratest band of the 90's" Help me prove this...

I have to write a Persuasive speech based on the Smashing Pumpkins. I figured i'd try to pursuade the class that they are the greatest band of the 1990's. I figured i could talk about how their music is so diverse (can write xyu and MCIS on one album), appeals to every emotion, sets trends in music and style, are pioneers in the rock world (machina II), have a dedicated fanbase, ambitious, charitable (98 charity shows), and artistically creative (gatmoc). So, can you give me some good arguemenst as to why they are the greatest band? Why they are so talented? Why they deserve respect? Any ideas, personal theories, articles, anyting could help me out. Just so I can get some ideas to convince my college public speaking class. When I told my teacher the topic, he made a face and was like, "eww, no they're not". So I've got to prove my point very good. I'm like an ambassador to my class, here, so I gotta give some good, convincing reasons as to the Pumpkin's merit. Thanks so much for any help you can provide. I'd ask over at the oboard, but then I'd get a bunch of: "becAwZ thAr c0ol and cuz BolLy'z mY B0yfriendh!!!1!! gigglesnort" reasons http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/wink.gif Good, concrete persuasuions here. Thanks! http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Gooch (edited 04-13-2002).]

 
Old 04-13-2002, 08:31 PM   #2
ckeegan
 
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Post

ok, well, you could say that Gish and Nivana's "Nevermind" came out on the same day (or days apart, can't remember which one it is). Anyway, you could make the case that if Nirvana hadn't been the ones to "make it through" (i.e. be the first 'alternative' band to hit the proverbial mainstream), it would have been the Pumpkins. Wouldn't that be strange, if all the credit (which is a load of bullshit if you ask me...alternative was nothing w/o bands like the Pixies) went to the Pumpkins for ushering in the 'Alternative revolution?' Food for thought.

By the way, you should be writing about something that really matters like alternative energy or Palestinian statehood.

 
Old 04-13-2002, 08:34 PM   #3
Gooch
 
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Post

good points.

And palestinian statehood was already chosen by someone else in the class. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/mad.gif

 
Old 04-13-2002, 08:37 PM   #4
Jaggie
 
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Post

The tone Billy played with on SD is unparalleled IMO. Talk about how many copy bands were spawned.

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i wasted all my years, been chasing all my fears

 
Old 04-13-2002, 10:18 PM   #5
Gooch
 
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good, good... elaborate http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/smile.gif

 
Old 04-13-2002, 10:31 PM   #6
Age Of Empathy
 
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i dunno if you could add this, but in the 11/28/00 interview, jim diragodes (sp.?) who was the interviewer, brought up the point that no smashing pumpkins ticket has been over $35 or $40 ..... tsp never charged $60+ per ticket.

the start of the MCIS tour was entirely club shows. despite the fact they could have done huge arenas they did clubs, same with resume the pose

definitely talking about the musical evolution of the pumpkins is essential. even from '88 to '91 there was a massive change in the music. songs like There it goes, spiteface, and my eternity were written in 88 and were kinda dark new wave sorta music, then they went to songs like bury me, siva, and i am one in 91. every album SP has been different then all the others.

they band has also been able to carry on during tough times. (i.e. melvoin dying, jimmy being kicked out, the girl dying at one of their shows, darcy leaving, find a new bassist, etc.) its a lot to take for any band, yet tsp seemed to have enough will to keep on going.

.... oh and most importantly, b0lly r0xzz

 
Old 04-13-2002, 11:10 PM   #7
monto
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Age Of Empathy:
the start of the MCIS tour was entirely club shows. despite the fact they could have done huge arenas they did clubs, same with resume the pose
wouldn't quite go as far as to say arenas (few bands can do arenas these days--McCartney, N'Sync, DMB)...even SP didn't sell out quite a few real arenas during their prime MCIS US touring days.

anyhow back to the topic, to elaborate on your fanbase/community issue, you can quote the numbers of fansites devoted to some 'big' bands vs. SP, p'haps with O-board membership or other numbers from google. also, that the SP bootleg community is/was one of the most devoted and wide spread. aside from DMB (Radiohead and U2's last tour were well chronicled, but the entire decade?), i doubt any band in the timeline you speak of is as developed as our's. you can use the SPFC and bootleg lists, perhaps even with some unique stories about 'hoarding'/etc. (quite a lesson in social politics http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/wink.gif).

speaking of DMB, in your argument, you ought to discount other 'bands' to make your case stronger (one hit wonders, completely manufactured pop acts, background music *uhem* jam bands http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/wink.gif, unoriginal copycats a la Bush and Creed)
[This message has been edited by monto (edited 04-13-2002).]

 
Old 04-13-2002, 11:45 PM   #8
trine
 
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Question

How can you "prove" an opinion?

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build a man a fire and he is warm for a day... set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life...

 
Old 04-14-2002, 12:16 AM   #9
lily1only
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by trine:
How can you "prove" an opinion?

persuasive essay, hence you persuade the reader to your opinion. prove isn't the right word.


 
Old 04-14-2002, 01:32 AM   #10
Graveflower
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Jaggie:
The tone Billy played with on SD is unparalleled IMO. Talk about how many copy bands were spawned.

Um. He got that tone from Kevin Shields.

 
Old 04-14-2002, 01:39 AM   #11
Mirror_Untrue
 
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Arrow

Talk about the RTP tour, how they met so many of their fans and made themselves more into real people instead of rock stars. As I'm sure someone said, talk about all the problems they encountered and how they kept going.

 
Old 04-14-2002, 04:13 AM   #12
Digital Grey
 
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Post

The only major 'alternative' act to release a double disc album in the 90s. You may also want to compare sales, and especially sales of the MCIS compared to previous double discs that did poorly. I think mentioning the amount of songs written is a sharp idea. Citing the number of articles written about the band could be good...but then you would have to compare TSP to other bands.

But your fucked any way you look at it, because creed is the best band of the 90s. Next to lifehouse.

/Max

 
Old 04-14-2002, 10:31 AM   #13
Rens
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Digital Grey:
But your fucked any way you look at it, because creed is the best band of the 90s. Next to lifehouse.
/Max
Don't forget Linkin Park! http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/biggrin.gif

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Rens Lohmann - Trading Page

 
Old 04-14-2002, 10:57 AM   #14
ANDREWS BIG THICK COCK
 
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Post

http://dylan.jamandy.com/pain2.jpg

 
Old 04-14-2002, 02:30 PM   #15
Digital Grey
 
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Sweet mother of pearl.


 
Old 04-14-2002, 10:17 PM   #16
TesticleFootSoldier
 
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Question

Isn't MCIS the best selling double album of all time? thought i heard that somewhere

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Phat Ballz

 
Old 04-15-2002, 05:27 PM   #17
hereisnowhy
 
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Post

The first thing you have to do is define what makes a band "great".

I would say that if a band can still be relevant in many years, the band has achieved a level of greatness. Take the Beatles - just as relevant today as they were 40 years ago.

I would argue that the Pumpkins music will be relevant and meaningful for a much longer period of time than most bands. Yet, importantly, they did not achieve timelessness at the expense of substance. For example, the Backstreet Boys' music will always be "relevant" because it applies to common human experience (guy meets girl). However, there is no real substance or meaning. The Pumpkins' music also appeals to issues of common human concern, yet provide some insight and significance.

my 2c

 
Old 04-15-2002, 10:16 PM   #18
Mustard
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by TesticleFootSoldier:
Isn't MCIS the best selling double album of all time? thought i heard that somewhere

Pink Floyd - The Wall


 
Old 04-15-2002, 10:43 PM   #19
Castro
 
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally posted by Mustard:
Pink Floyd - The Wall

No, actually he was right.



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I don't have time for this Mickey Mouse bullshit...

 
Old 04-15-2002, 11:30 PM   #20
Graveflower
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Castro:
No, actually he was right.

No, actually he's wrong.

It's just because of Billboard's idiotic rules.

More people own the Wall, and the White Album, than own Mellon Collie.


 
Old 04-15-2002, 11:36 PM   #21
peabody
 
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Post

MCIS is the best selling double CD of all time.


 
Old 04-16-2002, 01:54 AM   #22
TesticleFootSoldier
 
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Wink

meh, same shiz

------------------
Phat Ballz

 
Old 04-16-2002, 12:29 PM   #23
corganballs
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by peabody:
MCIS is the best selling double CD of all time.

Still wrong, MCIS is he best selling double CD studio album.

Garth Brooks has the highest selling double CD.

corganballs

 
Old 04-16-2002, 01:55 PM   #24
memories_unwind
 
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Post

Just take a look at eBay
Which band from the so called "alternative" scene sells so many items at high prices...take a look at bands like the chili peppers, radiohead, soundgarden, foo fighters...
Nirvana has a bonus cause Cobain is dead. The Pumpkins prices were already high before they announced the break up. Compared to Nirvana, the Pumpkins have much more items that get high prices. Comparable to the Pumpkins are Pearl Jam in this category. Just take a look at shawns site and how muc it`s worth. The reason for these high prices is just the enthusiasm of the fans. You will get problems if the Pumpkins are compared to U2...take a look at the prices on ebay, unbelievable.

Pumpkins shows in January 2000 in Europe were sold out within 2 minutes (Utrecht), they played in old theaters (Cirque Royal, Brussels 2000, Manchester Apollo, London Dominion Theater) when they were big...

They only cancelled 2 shows as I remember ( I was at one of them, Brussels 2000). They played the Manchester Apollo show which was cancelled later. So many bands cancel the whole tour and even don`t come back. Bands like Weezer, blink 182 or Coldplay cancelled their dates and did not come back for a very long time.

What about the last 2 shows. How big was the reaction of the fans and the press? How many people came from all over the world?!?


Look at the bootleg scene that someone already mentioned here. Take the S+P soundboard sampler. Instead of releasing a live album, Eric made the soundboard sampler and spread it. They never released a live album.

Finally you can`t convince anybody cause you are a fanatic like everybody here. Fans of other bands have many arguments for their band and will never say that you are right.
Neutral persons just don`t care and for them only sales are interesting. Consider Adore and Machina, this is difficult. But I think there are some things that can really prove something like this.
For me Nirvana was never interesting. They don`t have the difference between MCIS and X.Y.U. and that`s the most important feature of the Pumpkins for me.


 
Old 04-16-2002, 02:21 PM   #25
Smiley
 
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Post

Everybody already said most of what I can think of, so I'd just like to build on those suggestions...

Quote:
Originally posted by Age Of Empathy:
i dunno if you could add this, but in the 11/28/00 interview, jim diragodes (sp.?) who was the interviewer, brought up the point that no smashing pumpkins ticket has been over $35 or $40 ..... tsp never charged $60+ per ticket.
This is a good point... the Pumpkins were never greedy. In this interview, Billy confirms that $35 was probably the most they ever charged for a ticket. I mean, that doesn't count festivals like Lollapolooza... but still.

Quote:
Originally posted by Age Of Empathy:
they band has also been able to carry on during tough times. (i.e. melvoin dying, jimmy being kicked out, the girl dying at one of their shows, darcy leaving, find a new bassist, etc.) its a lot to take for any band, yet tsp seemed to have enough will to keep on going.
I'd like to add on to this... besides the fact that the band kept going, it's worthwhile to point out that they really went out with a bang. They made a conscious effort to have a nice, mutual breakup, once the band had run it's course. Nobody does that.

Quote:
Originally posted by monto:
anyhow back to the topic, to elaborate on your fanbase/community issue, you can quote the numbers of fansites devoted to some 'big' bands vs. SP, p'haps with O-board membership or other numbers from google. also, that the SP bootleg community is/was one of the most devoted and wide spread. aside from DMB (Radiohead and U2's last tour were well chronicled, but the entire decade?), i doubt any band in the timeline you speak of is as developed as our's. you can use the SPFC and bootleg lists, perhaps even with some unique stories about 'hoarding'/etc. (quite a lesson in social politics http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/wink.gif).
This is a great point. Although I might leave out the stuff about hoarding. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/tongue.gif Do a search for the Pumpkins on ebay or google, and check out how many results there are. Then try other well-known bands. It's obvious that the Pumpkins have a very strong online community. Check out dmoz.org (the Open Directory, which google uses for it's search engine). The last time I checked, there were about 200 bands that started with the letter 'S'... and SP had more fansites than any one of them (except for Britney...ugh).

Also, check out how much Pumpkins vinyl is worth. I've looked for vinyl and CD's from other bands, and it's always cheaper. SP collectibles are worth more, because there's a higher demand for them. That says something right there about how devoted the fans are.

Go to SP fansites, and check out the web counters. Look at how many people visit these sites... then look up some other band from the nineties... Alice in Chains or whatever... and compare. Also, compare how many people are registered on messageboards (the o-board would be a good example, since it's the official one). I haven't actually done these comparisons myself, but I'm confident that SP would have respectable numbers compared to other bands.

You might also want to mention how crazy the fans are about going to concerts... spending hundreds of dollars on scalped tickets (or in the case of the final show, $1000+), flying in from overseas, waiting in line all day, etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by memories_unwind:
Take the S+P soundboard sampler. Instead of releasing a live album, Eric made the soundboard sampler and spread it. They never released a live album.
This is a good point. If I were doing the essay, I'd definitely mention the S+P sampler, the Gravity demos, the FAEOMM bootleg, and Machina 2. For years, everybody wanted full versions of Pastichio songs. But something like that wouldn't really sell in stores. So what did Billy do? He gave it to us for free, as the Gravity demos.

And how about Rotten Apples / Judas O... two CD's for the price of one! I bought mine at Sam Goody for $15, the day it came out. Not a bad price for two brand new CD's.

I hope some of this stuff helps you with your essay. And good luck! http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/smile.gif Let us know how it turns out.

------------------
"love does not always have to be quiet and graceful, it can be boisterous and loud and even rude, to shout above the din to be heard sometimes... if only to bring a little peace" -bc
http://www.suicidekiss.org

[This message has been edited by Smiley (edited 04-16-2002).]

 
Old 04-16-2002, 04:45 PM   #26
happy peter pan
 
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Question

Quote:
Originally posted by memories_unwind:
They played the Manchester Apollo show which was cancelled later.
???

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http://www.asparagusproductions.com/...ide-mike03.jpg
Put on the mask and dance for daddy

 
Old 04-16-2002, 04:50 PM   #27
memories_unwind
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by happy peter pan:
???

Shit, I meant:
They played Manchester Apollo - which they cancelled in January 2000 - later (during their Infinite Sadness tour in September.
Now I know what the correctors of my midterms in English meant with "syntax problems and resulting problems of understanding" http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by memories_unwind (edited 04-16-2002).]

 
Old 04-16-2002, 04:56 PM   #28
smashingjj
 
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Post

every album was completely differtent from the other and still good. billy was incredibly diverse in songwriting, and it changed in the period they existed.

but I guess someone said that before.

------------------
Mallow


http://www.director-file.com/cunningham/5226.jpg

 
Old 04-16-2002, 10:22 PM   #29
sarmatianus
 
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Post

You can pretty much get most of what you'd want and or need from some extrapolation and interpretation of the Sound Opinions interview. (although much has already been brought up here)

Details with ticket prices, venues, sales...I mean, it's interesting and all, but it ultimately doesn't matter if the music sucks. Not that these things shouldn't be good secondary arguments, but stick with the music (and its influences and followers) and you'll have a better argument.

Perfect example is the Pixies - they took from many diverse and disparate sounds and created something totally new which then became a cornerstone for the next generation of musicians. Even if they had had the messiest breakup in the world, charged $500 per ticket, and sold eight copies of their albums, their influence would still outweigh all that.

Just something to gnaw on...

sarmatianus

------------------
I Am The Radio

[This message has been edited by sarmatianus (edited 04-16-2002).]

 
Old 04-17-2002, 04:04 AM   #30
Digital Grey
 
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i doubt any band in the timeline you speak of is as developed as our's.

Pearl jam
www.fivehorizons.com
www.digijam.org/hardtoimagine

Its neck and neck as far as communities go.

/Max

 
 


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