The Official Fri/Sat/Sun/Mon/Tue drunk/drugs/sad sex thread

[FoolofaTook]

same hear, only: I wasn't thirteen

[Disco King]

I went to a show with a friend last night, and she asked if she could confide something personal in me (this story involves childhood sexual abuse).







Turns out that earlier that day, her father told her that he needed to talk to her about something important. About the period in her childhood where he would sleep in her bed because she was having nightmares. Apparently, he abused her during that time. At first she was confused, because she didn't remember these incidents. But then the memories came back.

I obviously wanted to be an emotional support and console her or just let her have somebody to talk to, but I didn't know what kind of advice to give. I've never been in that situation myself, and I can't imagine what it would be like.

She told me that she's confused about telling her family, because of the ramifications it may have. Her parents marriage. She and her siblings work in the family business, so her brothers work with her father every day.

I really didn't know what to say. On the one hand, I can't in good faith implore a victim into coming forward when I myself am detached from the emotional consequences of that. On the other hand, it's not like I could ever tell a victim to keep their abuse to themselves.

The only thing I could think to say is that, though it's ultimately her choice as to whether she comes forward or not, there's no reason to base her choice on protecting the reputation or relationships of her abuser. If those things become strained because of the information that comes out, it's not her fault for revealing it, but his fault for doing those things in the first place.

She mentioned how she felt that, as it took some bravery and integrity to admit what he had done, telling her family about it would be a betrayal of her father's candidness. I told her that she shouldn't feel that way (I couldn't find a way to phrase advice that didn't make prescriptions about one "should" or "should not" feel, even though I wanted to), because if his apology came with the condition that she never tell anyone (not that she said he suggested that), then it doesn't seem like the apology is any kind of service to her. Instead, it would seem like a selfish way of relieving himself of the guilt by confessing, while placing the burden of keeping such a secret squarely on the shoulders of the victim.

I just can't imagine what it must be to go through something like that. She was telling me how, throughout her childhood, her father has been somewhat distant from her, and he confessed that the reason for this was because he couldn't "trust himself around [her]." That must be an incredibly fucked up thing to hear from a parent.

Her father was apparently saying that he didn't know what he was doing at the time, and then stepped back when he realized it was wrong. She was also saying that she feels that, as men are socialized to equate physical intimacy with sexual intimacy and are proscribed from platonic touching, she felt that maybe her father, coming from an older generation, was just confused about how to navigate personal affection through touch.

I can't speak for her father, I've never even met the man, but even though I do grant that societal norms of masculinity do leave us very confused about how to show affection through physical contact, I just don't see how that confusion is deep enough to lead one to abuse a child without understanding their actions. I don't think that sexual abuse of children, especially of one's own children, is something that occurs due to "honest mistakes." I think there is usually intent there. I feel like he was trying to mitigate his culpability by taking the "I didn't know" defense.

But she also mentioned that she doesn't know if it is related to a brain injury he suffered in her childhood. he fell off a firetruck and got run over, and has never been the same since. It's interesting, because not more than a day before hanging out with my friend and learning of all this, I was reading about a case of a man accused of owning child pornography. The man himself didn't know why he had only recently had the desire to watch such things. A brain scan eventually determined that he had a tumor. Apparently, his pedophilic urges disappeared as soon as the tumor was removed. Later on in life, the urges returned, and a brain scan found that the tumor had, also.

Things like impulse control, preferences/desires (sexual or otherwise), and even personality can be altered by brain injuries. However, it's really hard to incorporate this information in discussions that aren't just armchair conversations about neurology, but actually emotionally intense conversations with people personally being affected by stuff. Because I'm dumb and have poor social skills, I eventually found myself going on a tangent about the implications of such observations about the brain on free will; how we tend to assign a lower measure of culpability to those suffering from mental or neurological disorders that we feel compelled them to commit a crime, however, seeing as all our behaviours are controlled by are brains, which are formed through external factors such as environment and genetics, it stands to reason that none of us have any more control over our actions than those with illnesses. Of course, this was a purely philosophical consideration of mine, as I do support the legal system having different standards for those found to have certain judgement-impairing conditions. But a couple minutes into my ramble, I realized that I was turning an emotional conversation with a victim dealing with their abuse into an abstract academic inquiry, and I felt like shit and immediately apologized and tried to allow the conversation to return to a more practical and grounded addressing of her emotions.

I dunno, maybe there will be input from the people on the boards who have dealt with things similar to what she's going through who will want to weigh in. Sorry for the long-ass Disco-post.

[smashingjj]

did you tell her you're known as 'dicksuck king'?

[Disco King]

Yes. And that eased her mind, but only momentarily.

[smashingjj]

glad to hear!

[Shallowed]

Here's some advice on advice

Don't worry too much about not knowing what advice to give. What she was telling you isn't really the sort of thing that someone tells you because they're looking for advice. She just wanted to confide in you and let it out. It seems to be quite common for people to be compelled to give advice, and I can understand the sentiment behind it, because of course you'd want to help them. Unsolicited advice is annoying and can feel like you're not being listened to properly. People just want to be listened to.

[Disco King]

That's good advice.

What are the sorts of things I should say to show I'm listening and concerned? You know, when there are those gaps in the conversation and they are looking at you like "what now?", and you don't know how to respond?

In normal conversation, one strategy to let the other person know you are interested and listening is asking follow-up questions. But when it comes to a sensitive topics, I only want them to share information because they comfortably volunteer it, not because they are feeling probed. Even qualifying a question with "you don't have to answer this if you aren't comfortable" seems to put pressure on the person being asked to answer, in my experience.

And asking them sutff like "what do you think you should do?" seems to put pressure on them to immediately devise a response or solution.

[Disco King]

Btw, how have you been holding up so far since the breakup?

[You don't have to answer this if you aren't comfortable]

[Shallowed]

.

[Shallowed]

.

[Disco King]

Glad to hear you're staying socially active! Yeah, going out to things and talking to people is good.
.
I still haven't gotten back onto chores or healthy eating myself, but I've been reasonably social recently. It's funny, since I now make an effort to chat to people at shows and stuff, it's getting to the point where people recognize and know me and greet me. Last night, I was invited to a party following the show at the house of one of the opening band members. Didn't end up going because my friend obviously wasn't in the headspace to party, but the fact that we were invited was nice.

[Shallowed]

Originally Posted by Disco King

Glad to hear you're staying socially active! Yeah, going out to things and talking to people is good.
.
I still haven't gotten back onto chores or healthy eating myself, but I've been reasonably social recently.

Sorry I haven't been following the Disco King saga, but what made you fall out of habit with chores and healthy eating?

It's funny, since I now make an effort to chat to people at shows and stuff, it's getting to the point where people recognize and know me and greet me. Last night, I was invited to a party following the show at the house of one of the opening band members. Didn't end up going because my friend obviously wasn't in the headspace to party, but the fact that we were invited was nice.

It doesn't take long does it? I've had a few offers like that in the past, but I was in a curl-up-and-pretend-the-outside-world-doesn't-exist mood.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Disco King

I went to a show with a friend last night, and she asked if she could confide something personal in me (this story involves childhood sexual abuse).







Turns out that earlier that day, her father told her that he needed to talk to her about something important. About the period in her childhood where he would sleep in her bed because she was having nightmares. Apparently, he abused her during that time. At first she was confused, because she didn't remember these incidents. But then the memories came back.

I obviously wanted to be an emotional support and console her or just let her have somebody to talk to, but I didn't know what kind of advice to give. I've never been in that situation myself, and I can't imagine what it would be like.

She told me that she's confused about telling her family, because of the ramifications it may have. Her parents marriage. She and her siblings work in the family business, so her brothers work with her father every day.

I really didn't know what to say. On the one hand, I can't in good faith implore a victim into coming forward when I myself am detached from the emotional consequences of that. On the other hand, it's not like I could ever tell a victim to keep their abuse to themselves.

The only thing I could think to say is that, though it's ultimately her choice as to whether she comes forward or not, there's no reason to base her choice on protecting the reputation or relationships of her abuser. If those things become strained because of the information that comes out, it's not her fault for revealing it, but his fault for doing those things in the first place.

She mentioned how she felt that, as it took some bravery and integrity to admit what he had done, telling her family about it would be a betrayal of her father's candidness. I told her that she shouldn't feel that way (I couldn't find a way to phrase advice that didn't make prescriptions about one "should" or "should not" feel, even though I wanted to), because if his apology came with the condition that she never tell anyone (not that she said he suggested that), then it doesn't seem like the apology is any kind of service to her. Instead, it would seem like a selfish way of relieving himself of the guilt by confessing, while placing the burden of keeping such a secret squarely on the shoulders of the victim.

I just can't imagine what it must be to go through something like that. She was telling me how, throughout her childhood, her father has been somewhat distant from her, and he confessed that the reason for this was because he couldn't "trust himself around [her]." That must be an incredibly fucked up thing to hear from a parent.

Her father was apparently saying that he didn't know what he was doing at the time, and then stepped back when he realized it was wrong. She was also saying that she feels that, as men are socialized to equate physical intimacy with sexual intimacy and are proscribed from platonic touching, she felt that maybe her father, coming from an older generation, was just confused about how to navigate personal affection through touch.

I can't speak for her father, I've never even met the man, but even though I do grant that societal norms of masculinity do leave us very confused about how to show affection through physical contact, I just don't see how that confusion is deep enough to lead one to abuse a child without understanding their actions. I don't think that sexual abuse of children, especially of one's own children, is something that occurs due to "honest mistakes." I think there is usually intent there. I feel like he was trying to mitigate his culpability by taking the "I didn't know" defense.

But she also mentioned that she doesn't know if it is related to a brain injury he suffered in her childhood. he fell off a firetruck and got run over, and has never been the same since. It's interesting, because not more than a day before hanging out with my friend and learning of all this, I was reading about a case of a man accused of owning child pornography. The man himself didn't know why he had only recently had the desire to watch such things. A brain scan eventually determined that he had a tumor. Apparently, his pedophilic urges disappeared as soon as the tumor was removed. Later on in life, the urges returned, and a brain scan found that the tumor had, also.

Things like impulse control, preferences/desires (sexual or otherwise), and even personality can be altered by brain injuries. However, it's really hard to incorporate this information in discussions that aren't just armchair conversations about neurology, but actually emotionally intense conversations with people personally being affected by stuff. Because I'm dumb and have poor social skills, I eventually found myself going on a tangent about the implications of such observations about the brain on free will; how we tend to assign a lower measure of culpability to those suffering from mental or neurological disorders that we feel compelled them to commit a crime, however, seeing as all our behaviours are controlled by are brains, which are formed through external factors such as environment and genetics, it stands to reason that none of us have any more control over our actions than those with illnesses. Of course, this was a purely philosophical consideration of mine, as I do support the legal system having different standards for those found to have certain judgement-impairing conditions. But a couple minutes into my ramble, I realized that I was turning an emotional conversation with a victim dealing with their abuse into an abstract academic inquiry, and I felt like shit and immediately apologized and tried to allow the conversation to return to a more practical and grounded addressing of her emotions.

I dunno, maybe there will be input from the people on the boards who have dealt with things similar to what she's going through who will want to weigh in. Sorry for the long-ass Disco-post.

I agree that sometimes people just want to be heard. If you can tell her that what she's feeling is valid and she is in a very hard situation and you don't know what you yourself would do and wouldn't tell her what to do. Also you reminding her that her telling anyone is because he did those things in the first place and that the entire thing is his fault, is very good. It is good that he admitted it but if he really is sorry he will accept any punishment he gets, legal or marital or whatever. If he's willing and if she wants, it might be good to talk to at therapist together -eventually-. But, one thing at a time. Deciding who to disclose to helps a lot. That anticipation and uncertainty is killer. She has the power to tell or not to tell, but making a decision about what to do and doing it helped me a lot.

It really is just about the toughest situation you can be in. She must really trust you to tell you

[teh b0lly!!1]

Originally Posted by Disco King

for the long-ass Disco-post.

even though this wasn't typed for my amusement or anything, this was a good read. i like your ability to so steadily describe mental processes. i get so messy when i tell a story like that and basically go from tangent to tangent. you remain so grounded.

anyway.

i read an article once about the difference between 'guessers' and 'askers'. 'askers' grow up feeding off the assumption that if you want anything, you simply need to come out with it and ask. worst case scenario, you'll get a no. 'guessers', on the other hand, avoid putting up the question in the first place, unless they think the answer will likely be yes. similarly, they expect of others to show the same considerateness, and they don't appreciate being put in a situation where something's asked of them that they would like to refuse to.

as a 'guesser' (and here comes the point i'd been meaning to make), i always hate it when i tell anybody about something, and see how they immediately start furiously flipping through their mental library to solicit some advice. cause in a way, trying to offer a solution when there isn't any per se, makes the whole thing more about you than who you're listening to.

not every discussion has to end on an up note, and not any confession of hardship demands resolution. i think you did the right thing by not forcing any advice upon your friend. there is no real 'advice' to give, really. it's a fucked, tangled situation and any course of action would necessarily mean painful change. just be there for her and offer your sympathy and help carry the burden. if you have thoughts that might be helpful (which you obviously do, i agreed with all your points and found them good points for consideration), share them with her. that's all that's needed of you, and you'd be a great friend doing so. i know i'd appreciate it.

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by Shallowed

Sorry I haven't been following the Disco King saga, but what made you fall out of habit with chores and healthy eating?

Nothing in particular. Just haven't been as functional or motivated for the past year-and-a-half. Can't bring myself to do anything that takes effort and causes mild stress/discomfort. It's liked I'm a burnt-out bulb.

Originally Posted by Shallowed

It doesn't take long does it? I've had a few offers like that in the past, but I was in a curl-up-and-pretend-the-outside-world-doesn't-exist mood.

I know, I've also missed a lot of opportunities to make social connections by just refusing them out of fear of fucking them up or lack of energy or something.

But yeah, once you start being proactive about it and open that door, a lot of other people will be willing to leave it propped open for at least a little while. Once you signal to people that you're down to interact, interacting with you will be easier for them and they'll do it more often.

These events where you've been talking to people, do you go with friends, or just show up and talk to whomever is there? When it comes to chatting to women at least, I find it helps significantly if there is at least some evidence that you know people. Even if you don't come with a friend, greeting and chatting with the few familiar faces you encounter can make the difference between women you're cold approaching being open to you and them seeing you as the weirdo in the corner, in my experience.

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1

even though this wasn't typed for my amusement or anything, this was a good read. i like your ability to so steadily describe mental processes. i get so messy when i tell a story like that and basically go from tangent to tangent. you remain so grounded.

anyway.

i read an article once about the difference between 'guessers' and 'askers'. 'askers' grow up feeding off the assumption that if you want anything, you simply need to come out with it and ask. worst case scenario, you'll get a no. 'guessers', on the other hand, avoid putting up the question in the first place, unless they think the answer will likely be yes. similarly, they expect of others to show the same considerateness, and they don't appreciate being put in a situation where something's asked of them that they would like to refuse to.

as a 'guesser' (and here comes the point i'd been meaning to make), i always hate it when i tell anybody about something, and see how they immediately start furiously flipping through their mental library to solicit some advice. cause in a way, trying to offer a solution when there isn't any per se, makes the whole thing more about you than who you're listening to.

not every discussion has to end on an up note, and not any confession of hardship demands resolution. i think you did the right thing by not forcing any advice upon your friend. there is no real 'advice' to give, really. it's a fucked, tangled situation and any course of action would necessarily mean painful change. just be there for her and offer your sympathy and help carry the burden. if you have thoughts that might be helpful (which you obviously do, i agreed with all your points and found them good points for consideration), share them with her. that's all that's needed of you, and you'd be a great friend doing so. i know i'd appreciate it.

Thanks. I do agree that trying to give advice all the time can make the situation about the advisor rather than the person actually struggling with the issue. In fact, I was cognizant all throughout my post that my post really does seem to be about myself, not her.

I also find the thing you mentioned about "asker's vs. guesses" very relevant, because, though I haven't used this terminology, I've very recently realized that I'm a "guesser," in that I feel bad when I make my desires known or ask people for something, so I wait there just hoping they'll "sense" what it is I want and accomodate it. Even though the intent is to be non-confrontational and polite, it seems to lead to resentment when people can't read my mind, and passive-aggression.

Similarly, because I feel compelled to do whatever is asked of me, there is that resentment when somebody asks me to do something I don't want to do. Like, because I feel I can't say "no," instead of taking on the responsibility of enforcing my own boundaries, I resent the other person for putting me in that position where I feel pressured to give them what they want, because the alternative is saying "no" and feeling bad about it.

Originally Posted by reprise85

I agree that sometimes people just want to be heard. If you can tell her that what she's feeling is valid and she is in a very hard situation and you don't know what you yourself would do and wouldn't tell her what to do. Also you reminding her that her telling anyone is because he did those things in the first place and that the entire thing is his fault, is very good. It is good that he admitted it but if he really is sorry he will accept any punishment he gets, legal or marital or whatever. If he's willing and if she wants, it might be good to talk to at therapist together -eventually-. But, one thing at a time. Deciding who to disclose to helps a lot. That anticipation and uncertainty is killer. She has the power to tell or not to tell, but making a decision about what to do and doing it helped me a lot.

It really is just about the toughest situation you can be in. She must really trust you to tell you

Thanks. Yeah, I can understand what you mean about just exercising the agency to make a decision can have value in itself and can be empowering, regardless of what the decision is. Kind of reminds me of that existentialist position that there isn't always a "correct" course of action, and the "right thing to do" is just whatever action is freely chosen and not done out of obligation or external factors. As long as she's doing what she deems is best for her, it's probably the "right" choice.

I will also try to focus more on just listening than racking my brain for a fix next time I talk to her about this or any other problem. Thanks.

I am pretty flattered that she is comfortable enough with me to tell me, especially when she hasn't told anyone else. This was our first time hanging out since she decided she didn't feel any chemistry and just wanted to be friends, and before that, we'd only gone out four times. So, the friendship getting to this depth happened very quickly. In fact, part of me wondered if she is reconsidering and is open to dating again, and when we were parting, she even got out of the car to hug me and it seemed like she was leaning in for a kiss, but I couldn't tell. But I wanted to err on the side of caution, because I didn't want to mistake intimate friendship for anything else, or try to take advantage of her emotional vulnerability. Knowing what she's going through, whether we ever date again just doesn't seem like an important question to me anymore. My first priority with her is just to be a good friend, and I'll be content as long as we're friends. If it turns into more than that, great, and if not, also great.

[buzzard]

everything's gonna be alright

rockabye

[FlamingGlobes]

Man, I wanna give everyone in this thread a hug right now.

Except buzzard.

[buzzard]

I'm more of a kiss recipient, I know.

[FoolofaTook]

shallowed: forget tinder, go straight to the fatherlode: fetlife

[Disco King]

FetLife is more of a Facebook analogue than a dating site. Most people only add people they've met in real life. You're not likely to meet somebody through the site alone.

[LaBelle]

I had fun using Tinder, but it wasn't very useful. Because of the very nature of the app (you choose people based on their photos and a small blurb a lot of people don't even bother writing anything meaningful) It's hard to find people you actually connect with there.

[vixnix]

I have this feeling that using tinder in a country as tiny as NZ would come back to bite you at some stage.

[redbreegull]

I like Bumble. It's like Tinder except the female has to message the male first.

[LaBelle]

As a lesbian using Tinder in my city was kind of a minefield at times.

I know this girl, ugh *swipe left* ex of a friend *swipe left* oh no she's dating someone I know *swipe left* huh guess my math teacher liked women too *swipe left*

[LaBelle]

Also lots of couples looking for a third person.
Ugh, tinder sucks.


Hopefully straight tinder isn't as annoying.

[LaBelle]

Also I realize this perspective is useful for nobody here.

Shutting up now.

[LaBelle]

Someone find me something to do

[slunken]

[cork_soaker]

nuke this thread