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05-30-2020, 03:45 PM | #91 |
Ownz
Posts: 905
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I agree with you and with everything he says in that video, other than that America is fucking decaying, man. It has always had this rot at its core. From Jefferson thru Thoreau and DuBois and King and West the American project and promise is just picking at it and picking at it. We'll always be picking at it and we have to keep picking at it. The protestors are picking at it right now. But I think over the course of our history--and we are all enslaved by our history--we've removed a lot of that rot. We are not decaying--if anything we are slowly healing. I think this distinction is very important because it entails the future we imagine and build together. and again, the left wins when it runs on optimism and hope and loses when it runs on negative critical messages, and i want the left to win.
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05-30-2020, 04:08 PM | #92 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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bored now. where's the covid-20 thread
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05-30-2020, 05:40 PM | #93 |
Minion of Satan
Location: Banned
Posts: 8,874
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According to economists, a society is "decayed" after eight straight quarters of decay.
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05-30-2020, 05:50 PM | #94 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: Donald Trump of Netphoria
Posts: 37,218
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Did they change their minds since this morning?
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05-30-2020, 07:14 PM | #95 | |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 6,781
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Quote:
If you're on board with the above, how are we meant to have a conversation when one of us is either too far gone for it or just being intellectually dishonest because friendship? |
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05-30-2020, 08:19 PM | #96 | |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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Quote:
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05-30-2020, 08:24 PM | #97 | |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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Quote:
And if you think Trump is the reason minorities in the US are being killed disproportionately because of coronavirus, I doubt You have a grasp on how racist this country is |
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05-30-2020, 10:12 PM | #98 |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 6,781
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I view Trump and his winning of a democratic election in the United States of America as a glaring symptom of social decline and that also covers my view on how you guys have dealt with the pandemic.
While I couldn't claim to know ovary's exact thoughts, both of you have yet to convincingly demonstrate how his argument differs from those portrayals I've made of it despite ongoing efforts to wring some sense from the idea that we cannot accurately refer to America as experiencing any amount of the decay or decline that'd permit the use of those words. |
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05-30-2020, 10:15 PM | #99 | |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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Quote:
Trump is a symptom of shit that has been going on in this country for hundreds of years. It's not a decline, it's a reversion to the mean. Part of what ovary is saying, and what I am saying, is the fact that things have been especially good for an especially large number of people in the US in the last 60-80 years is the exception, not the rule. Your interpretation is that we must mean nothing better can be hoped for, but literally no one said that at all. |
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05-30-2020, 10:18 PM | #100 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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this is literally the stupidest fucking argument. we don't disagree at all, this is a fight over term definitions
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05-30-2020, 10:25 PM | #101 |
**************
Location: I'm a quitter. I come from a long line of quitters. It's amazing I'm here at all.
Posts: 8,661
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It's less of a stupid argument than several you had with others. The difference is that others didn't involve your friend 28if.
And even if it were simply a discussion of a word (which isn't the only disagreement I see), how is that stupid suddenly? If anybody here would use the word racism or gender with their own private definition, you'd be first in line to debate it. Now it's simply decay. And it's cool for you that you know what 28if means, but we can only read what he actually writes. And seeing lines like the US is still better than the majority of other countries, in a week where it has the worst riots in 50 years, and in a year where it somehow does worse in preventing people from dying in a pandemic than the majority of other countries, would get you into combat mode had anyone other than your friend written it. So instead of trying to shut a conversation down because for once it doesn't involve someone you dislike, you could be honest enough to allow it to play out. Last edited by pavementtune : 05-30-2020 at 10:34 PM. |
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05-30-2020, 10:49 PM | #102 | |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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Quote:
Last edited by redbreegull : 05-30-2020 at 11:06 PM. |
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05-30-2020, 10:54 PM | #103 | |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 6,781
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Quote:
In any case, the way I've characterized his argument was intended to demonstrate to him how his stated views look to this observer. My interactions with him began as questioning and I have pushed him to clarify further at every step. So far, the best either of you have done is to hypothetically calculate a sort of average state of America that includes the time before electricity and then tell me that things have actually improved from there. If things have been "especially good for an especially large number of people in the US in the last 60-80 years" and they're not going to be that good going forward, the inherent reversion to this mean you're on about actually represents a decline in itself. I could rest my case on that point alone, though I imagine you'd then refer to cycles and completely ignore the influence China will exert upon that over the next several decades. If Trump is the kind of thing that's been happening all along, why have you in particular always seemed so emphatically disturbed by his election? |
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05-30-2020, 11:06 PM | #104 | |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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Quote:
It's possible I understand Ovary's point to be basically aligned with ours because I know him personally, and he spends all his time writing critical analysis. I don't see it as an attack on progressivism or anti-racism that he would pick apart the rhetoric used by an influential thinker and activist. I see it as the same thing you are taught to do every day when you are getting a literature phd a dissection of someone's words is not necessarily an attack. I get the attitude that it's not appropriate to do that to someone's point when you are in front of an audience that you are trying to convince to come to your side, but literally everyone here agrees on 95% of this already. We literally drove all the republicans off the board because we didn't want to tolerate them. no one here is going to lose out on cornell west's point because one dude pointed out that a word he used was questionable rhetoric is about your audience as much as it is about everything else, and I find myself often wondering about this when people on the left argue. it just seems commonly enough that the rhetorical attitude of people on the left is to talk as if defending one's thesis to a theoretical panel of justice or something, abstracting their words from who is actually listening/reading Last edited by redbreegull : 05-30-2020 at 11:16 PM. |
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05-30-2020, 11:13 PM | #105 |
Minion of Satan
Location: Banned
Posts: 8,874
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Everybody what are your top five societal decays throughout history? No mere declines please, just full-on decays.
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05-30-2020, 11:18 PM | #106 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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05-30-2020, 11:20 PM | #107 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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In a way I am almost flattered that non-Americans have this idea that America was once, at its core, better than it is now
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05-30-2020, 11:25 PM | #108 |
Minion of Satan
Location: Banned
Posts: 8,874
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Are we talking about, like, every single metric a country could be judged on? Like, economic equality, social justice, human development, global economic/military hegemony, obesity rates, literacy rates, technological innovation, infant mortality, carbon emissions per capita, and size of its largest pyramid?
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05-30-2020, 11:27 PM | #109 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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let's define the peak of American society by every factor on the list
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05-30-2020, 11:27 PM | #110 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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cross-sectioned by race and income
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05-30-2020, 11:30 PM | #111 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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economic equality peaked in 1967 when minimum wage, per buying power, was highest. mark it down. we're decaying like an isotope
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05-30-2020, 11:30 PM | #112 |
Minion of Satan
Location: Banned
Posts: 8,874
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Well, then the peak was whenever they built this Bass Pro Shop.
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05-30-2020, 11:32 PM | #113 |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 6,781
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You don't think that a step that means people don't need to pretend they're not racist anymore in a world leading nation in 2016 is suggestive of any sort of decay/decline/etc.? Honestly, it just seems like you completely agree with me but absolutely must do the backflips necessary to remain loyal.
The argument clearly does involve defining terms, but it's not going very well. For example, I'm not sure how you've gotten this idea that anybody thinks "societal decay" specifically refers to a downturn within the last five years. Really, I think it's more the case that people are saying it doesn't refer to falling below an average calculated on the basis of things from 1800 to 2020. Try all you like to redirect the conversation to West's article and limit our discussion to its use within that context, but ovary's absolute first response to my questioning opened with references to the narrative of the political left and you can't just worm away from that when it suits you. At the end of the day, this exchange began with ovary questioning the use of terminology. It doesn't look like we're going to be adopting his position on that one point and the abject lack of a persuasive argument for doing so is rather surprising when given how much time he apparently spends on critical analysis. |
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05-30-2020, 11:38 PM | #114 | |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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Quote:
I think the fact that the racists have taken off their masks is a symptom of decay for sure, at least the way you are thinking about it. But I have to ask then, is history a cycle of decay and restoration? Cause decay implies death. But 50 years ago we had race riots and assassinations, a war that killed 70k Americans and millions of civilians in Asia over ideology, less education, less healthcare, lower quality of life for everyone (whites and nonwhites), lower lifespan.... so was that decay and then we got better and we're in a new state of decay? |
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05-30-2020, 11:55 PM | #115 |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 6,781
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You still haven't acknowledged that the beginning of a decline would immediately follow a peak. It doesn't require that the downturn first extend for some minimum period of time before we may refer to it or say it exists, though it will be harder to demonstrate and lead to conversations like this.
It's good to know that downturns only occur in cycles and I don't know why I hadn't noticed that the British Empire still controls the world. |
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05-31-2020, 12:01 AM | #116 |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 6,781
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The analytical dream team of redbreegull and ovary have me convinced.
A decline isn't a decline until more than four years have passed. Although the decline is a decline during the fifth year of downward movement, that fifth year is to be considered the first year of decline. That being said, decline following those initial four years of decline are not required to extend by an additional four years in duration before such time as they may be referred to as a decline. Only the first four years do not exist (but do). |
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05-31-2020, 12:02 AM | #117 | |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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Quote:
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05-31-2020, 12:03 AM | #118 | |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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Quote:
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05-31-2020, 12:12 AM | #119 |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 6,781
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My first post on this subject effectively equated the words and acting in good faith would require that you accept my obvious meaning.
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05-31-2020, 12:20 AM | #120 |
Just Hook it to My Veins!
Location: N3t4Euh Haus
Posts: 32,752
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ok so decayed=decline. got it. can we get a definition now?
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