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Old 04-12-2018, 09:31 PM   #181
reprise85
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I have no problem with you thinking rap sucks. I have a problem with you saying that white rappers are racists and just creating alternate facts like people who like rap are criminals and rappers only sing about dumb things and even worse stuff that you can google in 10 seconds like eminem being a dying artist

 
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:40 PM   #182
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Look, I know enough rap fans to know the narrative regarding Eminem. The narrative is that he sucks now and that he hasn't been good for a long time. What I hear is very similar to how we talk about Billy Corgan.

Reading the recent reviews for Eminems newer albums will show you that they're not very highly regarded. The consensus is that he's been pretty stagnant with nothing interesting left to say. Sure, the sales are still pretty strong despite the tepid fan response, but that seems to be the case for most of these legend acts across the board.

 
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:43 PM   #183
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By you standards, we can look at Billy Corgan and see that Zeitgeist was number 2 in the US and number 1 in a lot of other countries and see that Oceania debuted at number 5.

If you were to go by your reasoning then one would think that Billy Corgan is still a huge rock star.

 
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:58 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by fuzzyroes View Post
Look, I know enough rap fans to know the narrative regarding Eminem. The narrative is that he sucks now and that he hasn't been good for a long time. What I hear is very similar to how we talk about Billy Corgan.

Reading the recent reviews for Eminems newer albums will show you that they're not very highly regarded. The consensus is that he's been pretty stagnant with nothing interesting left to say. Sure, the sales are still pretty strong despite the tepid fan response, but that seems to be the case for most of these legend acts across the board.
virtually the exact same thing could be said about almost any aging, previously successful artist.

at one point, the well runs dry. and that is especially true when it comes to a lyrical platform such as rap.

 
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:07 PM   #185
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i've listened to eminem a bit here and there, certainly not enough to impose myself on any conversation about his continuous artistic merit/deep cuts, but nevertheless - i feel like his earlier work had an inventiveness and fresh quality to it, that is almost completely absent from his later work. his rap (at least the songs i'd heard/read the lyrics to) is now mainly a confessional vehicle, talking about his private life, daughter, rich ppl problems, guilt & shame etc.

he's just like any other successful artist who simply is not hungry anymore. just part of aging i guess. he's content, rich and famous, has rich people problems, and that reflects in the music. not any different from other rockstar fallout that took their songwriting in the exact same direction in their later years.

 
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:32 PM   #186
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Yeah, I mean it's only natural to happen. But this idea that he's at the top of his game simply isn't true. I mean, an act like The Who are still one of the top grossing acts, it's not really any merit of their current artistic importance.

I don't even know why I was getting so worked up though. RBG just knows how to press my buttons. I still think it's absurd for him to claim that hip-hop is the most important genre of music in the history of mankind

 
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Old 04-12-2018, 11:02 PM   #187
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I never said Eminem was at the top of his game. I said he was as popular artist who is still relevant and still popular. I don't care what you think about him, it is absurd to say he's not a prominent artist who is still active in making new music when he continues to have best selling albums over and over and over again. Just admit that you thought that he wasn't selling anything and you didn't even check before saying he was on a Corgan-slide. This isn't about Eminem, it's about your lack of critical thinking

 
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Old 04-12-2018, 11:03 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by fuzzyroes View Post
By you standards, we can look at Billy Corgan and see that Zeitgeist was number 2 in the US and number 1 in a lot of other countries and see that Oceania debuted at number 5.

If you were to go by your reasoning then one would think that Billy Corgan is still a huge rock star.
no, if everything since zeitgeist was debuting at number 1 and sellling 100,000+ copies then yeah you could say he was still a big rock star, yes

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:29 AM   #189
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I realize I was being controversial, but pretty much every lousy criminal that I've come across in life has been a rap fan. Sure, it's a small sample size....
same argument you use for saying derogatory shit about any group. your experience is worthless and the amount you trust your own senses and limited intuition versus trusting aggregate data is a huge part of why you think so many stupid, incorrect things.

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All of this is either here nor there though. It doesn't really matter. I just find a lot of the most famous rap music to be far too negative for my tastes, and when there's upbeat positive rap it just seems lame.
so even when it isn't what you are complaining about, you still don't like it, probably meaning the thing you are complaining about is just an excuse or a justification for a prejudiced attitude.

I'd be interested to analyze Appetite For Destruction for thematic elements and see how focused that album is on the "negative" things you are putting down rap music for. For starters, I only know one album where the CD insert is a painting of a woman who has been raped and murdered by a robot.

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I don't know that I'm an alcoholic. I've been limiting myself to drinking only 2 days a week, and when I do it's responsibly, and I've been doing a pretty good job at it.

I'm a smart guy. I realize for a long time drinking was an impulsive thing for me, so I have the awareness to nip it in the bud. The problem with a lot of addicts is that they lack personal introspection. I wish it didn't take me so long to see things clearly, as I've wasted a lot of time, but better late than never.
let's make excuses

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Yeah, I mean, I'm technically not sober... But I'm not casually drinking by myself anymore. I'll go drinking once or twice a week, and when I do I'm being really cognizant about doing it responsibly.

For example, I went out drinking on the weekend, and when I did, I made sure to only have a few beers beforehand, as opposed to what I'd usually do and get drunk beforehand in an effort to "save money"... Sure, buying drinks at an establishment is a lot more costly, but at least when I do that I'm not shit-faced and out of my mind. Of course buying a few double rum and cokes for 11 bucks a piece is kinda stupid, but better than being off my rocker.
let's make excuses

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Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1 View Post
music doesn't exist in a vacuum.
it is ultimately a byproduct for different people having different experiences and expressing that thru a creative medium.

rap may factually be more linked to crime, but there's little or no causality involved (or at least, no more than in the case of a death metal listener committing mass homicide). the music may be more inclined towards a particular topic that is non constructive or violent, but it's just because that is what's happening in those people's lives. not everybody gets dealt the same cards and that sucks, but that's a whole other thing.

ultimately we're all juts people and we all eat and breathe and shit the same, and all these distinctions and classifications (like rap = poor black ppl music, shoegaze = sophisticated british elite music) are bullshit and say way more about us than about the art itself.
yeah basically. I do think hip hop is probably more culturally important to black Americans and their story in the US than shoegaze is to telling any kind of compelling narrative about a culture of people (for example), but that's probably precisely because one centers on the experiences of an oppressed and struggling group. Alternative rock probably attracts saddos fascinated with suicide and drugs, but it certainly doesn't mean that Nirvana and SP are WHY people kill themselves and take drugs

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Originally Posted by Elphenor View Post
I think hip hop and rock have similar subject matter but one is Blacker and that is why it offends fuzzy
ding ding ding

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Originally Posted by buzzard View Post
People that listen to blues are more likely to work in a chain gang at the dawn of the 20th century.
lmao

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Originally Posted by fuzzyroes View Post
I still think it's absurd for him to claim that hip-hop is the most important genre of music in the history of mankind
That's what you heard, not what I said. I was arguing that hip hop has become the biggest musical sensation in the history of the world in terms of the audience. It is listened to more than any other kind of music ever has been. If you ever take a step out of your comfort zone you will discover that this is pretty likely true, or at least there is a strong argument for it. At the very least, hip hop globally has reached and influenced FAR more people than the classic rock movement you are suggesting was so much bigger. It was only actually bigger to white Westerners.

I understand you probably feel threatened by the idea that your musical canon is not actually the global musical canon though, especially given most of your other worldviews are very Western/white centric.

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 01:24 AM   #190
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re: elph and bree,

just because rock and rap are both anti-establishment doesn't necessarily mean they deal with the same subject matter. i do see your point, but i think it's more akin to comparing different nations or cultures: sure, you could find some similarities, because in the end it's all people - but ultimately the context and angle from which the subject matter is approached by each party are very different.

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 01:30 AM   #191
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That's what you heard, not what I said. I was arguing that hip hop has become the biggest musical sensation in the history of the world in terms of the audience. It is listened to more than any other kind of music ever has been. If you ever take a step out of your comfort zone you will discover that this is pretty likely true, or at least there is a strong argument for it. At the very least, hip hop globally has reached and influenced FAR more people than the classic rock movement you are suggesting was so much bigger. It was only actually bigger to white Westerners.

I understand you probably feel threatened by the idea that your musical canon is not actually the global musical canon though, especially given most of your other worldviews are very Western/white centric.
i enjoyed entertaining this thought as well, but i thought to myself that there's a good chance of it being true (i don't know factually) because rap is something anyone, anytime, anywhere, can do. it's truly a poor man's artform - no instrument is required, no band, no big production. just take the most rudimentary, basic thing in your possession and use it to express yourself musically.

i wish i loved hip hop more tbh; i only ever get moods for it every once in a blue moon.

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 01:35 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by teh_b0lly!!1
re: elph and bree,

just because rock and rap are both anti-establishment doesn't necessarily mean they deal with the same subject matter. i think it's akin to comparing different nations or cultures: sure, you could find some similarities, because in the end it's all people - but ultimately the context and angle from which the subject matter is approached are very different.
for sure that is true. but comparatively, they are pretty similar forms of music (in "the big picture"). they have a common root from only 50-60 years ago and both are derived mostly from blues.

you are right though, especially as rock music was absorbed into white culture and came to reflect for the most part a very different experience

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 03:30 AM   #193
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I'm a smart guy.
no, you're not, "bookworm".

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 05:24 AM   #194
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*CRICKSETS (YOU CAN HAER)**

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:18 AM   #195
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What you guys don't understand is that I'm a student of Buddhism. I try to live without an ego. I have "no points to gain".
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I'm a smart guy.
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It's just not something that a bookworm from a Canadian suburb can relate with.
uh huh

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 11:01 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1 View Post
re: elph and bree,

just because rock and rap are both anti-establishment doesn't necessarily mean they deal with the same subject matter. i do see your point, but i think it's more akin to comparing different nations or cultures: sure, you could find some similarities, because in the end it's all people - but ultimately the context and angle from which the subject matter is approached by each party are very different.
yeah the word I used was similar

in that classic rock is still all sex, drugs, violence, misogyny

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 04:07 PM   #197
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what is classic rock

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 04:09 PM   #198
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those are pretty much the cornerstones of all blues (pre-war) and then r&b and rock and roll

so basically all western music since the beginning of the 20th century

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 04:26 PM   #199
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I do think hip hop is probably more culturally important to black Americans and their story in the US than shoegaze is to telling any kind of compelling narrative about a culture of people (for example), but that's probably precisely because one centers on the experiences of an oppressed and struggling group.
This is probably worded wrong, but I read that a lot of the continued success of hip-hop and rap has to do with the fetishization of the black experience to white listeners (much like rock and roll in the 50s), which is why a lot of historians/critics feel hip-hop since the mid/late 90s is mostly disposable garbage on par with pop music.

Not to say there haven't been innovations, but rather that hip-hop and rap as a societal critique is dead, much like rock and roll decades before.

Point being is that when discussing rap and hip-hop, we have 40 years of history to talk about and you easily get in trouble trying to distill a complex history into one genre.

I don't even know who I'm talking to. Just throwing another chair in the ring, I guess.

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 06:52 PM   #200
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I never said Eminem was at the top of his game. I said he was as popular artist who is still relevant and still popular. I don't care what you think about him, it is absurd to say he's not a prominent artist who is still active in making new music when he continues to have best selling albums over and over and over again. Just admit that you thought that he wasn't selling anything and you didn't even check before saying he was on a Corgan-slide. This isn't about Eminem, it's about your lack of critical thinking
No, I was talking about the reception of his output. Of course he's a legend act now, he'll sell regardless of what turd he puts out, sorta like Green Day with their last dad-rock album. But when talking about pop-artists like Eminem, part of the judging factor has to be the hit-singles... Eminem has been on a total downswing in that regard. So any sales and goodwill that he has is mostly on the back of his old material, much like Billy Corgan.

If you took a moment to look at the critical response of his past few albums, you'd see that I was totally on the mark when I said he was on a downswing.

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 06:55 PM   #201
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I'll be back later to address any other inquiries

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 06:59 PM   #202
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I'll say right now though, since I have a minute, this comparison of rock and roll to rap is absurd.

A lot of rock is all about getting fucked up and banging chicks, which albeit isn't positive, it's not even in the realm of the malicious content that rap often boasts about... Rap glorifies murder, gang life, violence... No comparison as far as I'm concerned.

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:02 PM   #203
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I'll say right now though, since I have a minute, this comparison of rock and roll to rap is absurd.

A lot of rock is all about getting fucked up and banging chicks, which albeit isn't positive, it's not even in the realm of the malicious content that rap often boasts about... Rap glorifies murder, gang life, violence... No comparison as far as I'm concerned.
you aren't concerned though, no one is taking anything you say seriously.

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:19 PM   #204
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No, I was talking about the reception of his output. Of course he's a legend act now, he'll sell regardless of what turd he puts out, sorta like Green Day with their last dad-rock album. But when talking about pop-artists like Eminem, part of the judging factor has to be the hit-singles... Eminem has been on a total downswing in that regard. So any sales and goodwill that he has is mostly on the back of his old material, much like Billy Corgan.

If you took a moment to look at the critical response of his past few albums, you'd see that I was totally on the mark when I said he was on a downswing.
dude has 8 #1 albums in a fucking row. he is not on a billy corgan-esque downswing, jesus christ. monuments to an elegy sold like 30,000 copies. is he not as popular as he used to be? sure. but that's a big difference than where billy corgan is

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:37 PM   #205
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Of course I was exaggerating for comedic purposes. Do you really imagine that I think Eminem is as popular as Billy Corgan? Nonetheless, if you hear the narrative surrounding Eminem, it's that he's somehow lost the magic, can't make anything good anymore... Much like what we say here about Billy Corgan.

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:38 PM   #206
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same argument you use for saying derogatory shit about any group. your experience is worthless and the amount you trust your own senses and limited intuition versus trusting aggregate data is a huge part of why you think so many stupid, incorrect things.



so even when it isn't what you are complaining about, you still don't like it, probably meaning the thing you are complaining about is just an excuse or a justification for a prejudiced attitude.

I'd be interested to analyze Appetite For Destruction for thematic elements and see how focused that album is on the "negative" things you are putting down rap music for. For starters, I only know one album where the CD insert is a painting of a woman who has been raped and murdered by a robot.



let's make excuses



let's make excuses



yeah basically. I do think hip hop is probably more culturally important to black Americans and their story in the US than shoegaze is to telling any kind of compelling narrative about a culture of people (for example), but that's probably precisely because one centers on the experiences of an oppressed and struggling group. Alternative rock probably attracts saddos fascinated with suicide and drugs, but it certainly doesn't mean that Nirvana and SP are WHY people kill themselves and take drugs



ding ding ding



lmao



That's what you heard, not what I said. I was arguing that hip hop has become the biggest musical sensation in the history of the world in terms of the audience. It is listened to more than any other kind of music ever has been. If you ever take a step out of your comfort zone you will discover that this is pretty likely true, or at least there is a strong argument for it. At the very least, hip hop globally has reached and influenced FAR more people than the classic rock movement you are suggesting was so much bigger. It was only actually bigger to white Westerners.

I understand you probably feel threatened by the idea that your musical canon is not actually the global musical canon though, especially given most of your other worldviews are very Western/white centric.
Jesus man, can you keep it to a quote per post? This is way too much for me to try and address.

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:44 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
same argument you use for saying derogatory shit about any group. your experience is worthless and the amount you trust your own senses and limited intuition versus trusting aggregate data is a huge part of why you think so many stupid, incorrect things.



so even when it isn't what you are complaining about, you still don't like it, probably meaning the thing you are complaining about is just an excuse or a justification for a prejudiced attitude.

I'd be interested to analyze Appetite For Destruction for thematic elements and see how focused that album is on the "negative" things you are putting down rap music for. For starters, I only know one album where the CD insert is a painting of a woman who has been raped and murdered by a robot.



let's make excuses



let's make excuses



yeah basically. I do think hip hop is probably more culturally important to black Americans and their story in the US than shoegaze is to telling any kind of compelling narrative about a culture of people (for example), but that's probably precisely because one centers on the experiences of an oppressed and struggling group. Alternative rock probably attracts saddos fascinated with suicide and drugs, but it certainly doesn't mean that Nirvana and SP are WHY people kill themselves and take drugs



ding ding ding



lmao



That's what you heard, not what I said. I was arguing that hip hop has become the biggest musical sensation in the history of the world in terms of the audience. It is listened to more than any other kind of music ever has been. If you ever take a step out of your comfort zone you will discover that this is pretty likely true, or at least there is a strong argument for it. At the very least, hip hop globally has reached and influenced FAR more people than the classic rock movement you are suggesting was so much bigger. It was only actually bigger to white Westerners.

I understand you probably feel threatened by the idea that your musical canon is not actually the global musical canon though, especially given most of your other worldviews are very Western/white centric.
Sure, Guns N Roses has used some dumb imagery, but if you listen to the content of the lyrics, they don't glorify violence or gang life... Really, if you listen to a lot of lyrics in rap music, it is UGLY... It is MALICIOUS, it is awful content. None of these major labels like Sony or Epic should be giving people a platform if they're going to glorify gang violence for the rest of the mindless sheep criminals in the world to wanna try and replicate.

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:47 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1 View Post
re: elph and bree,

just because rock and rap are both anti-establishment doesn't necessarily mean they deal with the same subject matter. i do see your point, but i think it's more akin to comparing different nations or cultures: sure, you could find some similarities, because in the end it's all people - but ultimately the context and angle from which the subject matter is approached by each party are very different.
Exactly this.

Listen, I like silly rap here and there... But gang violence and gang activity is a scourge to all communities. These people that partake in gangs don't have a conscience, they're awful human beings and they look to rap music to validate and vindicate their mindset and behavior. This way of life should not be glorified in any manner or form.

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:54 PM   #209
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and both are derived mostly from blues.
Okay, this is absolutely absurd. Rap takes nothing from the blues. There is no commonality musically or lyrically. Blues guys were pouring out their pain, crying out their inner feelings and emotions. Rap is all about posturing and it's all about their aggression and masochism and trying to justify living a life full of crime.

 
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:56 PM   #210
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no, you're not, "bookworm".
I'm smarter than most. Most people don't even read. You'd be amazed by how stupid the common person is these days. I'd say most of you guys are a lot more intelligent than the norm.

 
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