The finer points of Nothing Ever Changes...

[List On Fork]

Taken from the SP recording chronolgy:

1988 - Billy's father's home studio, Chicago
** Breathe
** It Suites Me Well [The Vigil]
** Heart / Cross
NOTE: An early demo called Nothing Ever Changes. The lineup
*******d: Billy, James, and Ron Roesing (formerly of The Marked) on
drums; this could be viewed as the very first recording that ceased
to be The Marked and became The Smashing Pumpkins. Heart and Cross
were originally two separate songs, but were joined together into
one. It Suits Me Well is actually The Vigil.
Although a tape exists as the aforementioned 3-song configuration,
The original Nothing Ever Changes was about 60 minutes in length and
was Billy's first attempt at a full-length album; it contained a
combination of songs, spoken word selections (recalled as "bad
poetry"), and instrumentals.

I have a version where "Heart" and "Cross" are two separate songs, with "Heart" actually labeled with the title "Holiday." Furthermore, there is no "Breathe", but actually a "Nothing And Everything".. Is "Breathe" an early working title for that song?

And one might think that if there are 60-minute versions with bad poetry floating around, one might have surfaced by now. Can anyone recall seeing/hearing a copy of this? Moreover, what are the origins of the circulating 3-song (or, as mine is, 4-song) version?

[Azael]

I wanna know too, I've always wondered about this recording.

(man, it's been forever since I've looked at the recording chronology)

[MikeF]

Here's a txt file I've had for a number of years, it is most likely a copy/paste of a post from on here.

My version contains 4 tracks as well and was from the Ron Roesning tapes leak, I don't remember when that exactly was but my txt files have a date of Aug 2001.

[wpc33]

I love what little I've heard of N&E. I'd kill to hear the whole thing. Am I wrong in recalling that Hope is supposedly part of it too?

[MikeF]

In regards to Hope.. another old txt file. Thank goodness for txt files, I don't actually have to remember anything, and thanks to those who originally spoke the wisdom. If any info on the history of the song has changed since I saved this txt I'd love to hear about it.

[List On Fork]

A drum machine replaced Ron as a second demo tape was recorded with songs such as "My Eternity", "Armed to the Teeth", "Screaming", "Bleed", "There It Goes", and others. This tape was given to Joe Shanahan, owner of the Metro Club, who allowed the band to perform later.

Amazing! That's the first I've heard of this tape.

[dean moriaty]

i'm liking this mike f character

[Endless Whining]

Originally Posted by List On Fork

A drum machine replaced Ron as a second demo tape was recorded with songs such as "My Eternity", "Armed to the Teeth", "Screaming", "Bleed", "There It Goes", and others. This tape was given to Joe Shanahan, owner of the Metro Club, who allowed the band to perform later.

Amazing! That's the first I've heard of this tape.

I've known of this [second] tape for some years know, but if I remember correctly nothing ever came of the contact. So no audio has been available to verify.

That's not only a pity 'cause I'd like to hear these versions of the Avalon songs in a studio recorded fashion, I'd love to be able to check something else...

We might assume the following:
-> June 88: Corgan, Iha and Roesing record a tape called 'Nothing Ever Changes' at Bob English's place. This tape features:
The Vigil
Nothing & Everything
Holiday
Cross

-> Also June 88???: Corgan and Iha record a second tape at Bob English's place, this time using a drum machine. This tape features:
My Eternity
Armed to the Teeth
Screaming
Bleed
There It Goes
[+ more]

Now: when put next to the setlist for Avalon missing from the given tracklist of the second Bob English tape are:
I Fall
6234

Interesting:
I Fall was earmarked by Corgan in conversation with Dave Asselin back in 1999 as a demo from 1987, which to me has always seemed awfully early. Then again, there's no other way to check the veracity of Corgan's assertion than the song itself. Since it has now leaked some questions still remain open:

1) Musically I've always felt like the demo for I Fall didn't fit in with the other songs from the mid88 era like There It Goes for example. Still: the song was played at Avalon. I'd now say there's a good chance I Fall was recorded as a demo in the Bob English setting, with the drum machine, but it might have been one of the first post-Marked/pre-Pumpkins songs written between Corgan and Iha. That would explain the date of late87, whilst the actual recording might be from June 88.
2) If that's the case then the embryonic Pumpkins recorded the almost the entire set of the Avalon show in June 88. Some songs were played live, some weren't. Some songs we know were recorded, some we are not sure of. Some songs use live drumming by Ron, some use a drum machine. JC's not in the picture at this moment in time.

Now: as far the two demo's [There It Goes and Under Your Spell] on MP.
I've always thought these two demo's were recorded after mid88 when JC had joined the band.
That could mean these were recorded in what the posted txt mentiones as the '3 song tape' with JC. On that very tape Nothing and Everything, There It Goes and Sun are featured with JC on drums. That fact alone doens't exclude the possibility the band also recorded a version of Under Your Spell with JC on drums, which was left off this '3 song tape'.
Maybe someone can shed some light on the matter of drumming on both There It Goes and Under Your Spell as found on MP. I feel these two songs might be from the same 'session' of recordings because of the same feel and sound. Also: I think Under Your Spell features live drumming. Not sure about There It Goes. But I might be wrong here.

This would mean we now have:
- I Fall (demo) [recorded mid88 together with the bunch of songs that made up the second Bob English tape]
- 'Nothing Ever Changes'> the passed around short version of only four songs: The Vigil, Nothing and Everything, Holiday, Cross.
- There It Goes and Under Your Spell from MP from the same session as the '3 song tape'?
Let's see:
Late 88 > recording at Reel Time Studios for Light Into Dark: recorded are:
Sun
My Dahlia
East
Late 88 > recording at Schwa Prodcutions: recorded are:
East
Jennifer Ever
Nothing and Everything
Spiteface

Both sessions are clearly with JC and from 88, so the posted info is off here.

It's likely though that both There It Goes and Under Your Spell are from the late 88 sessions on either location.

If the posted information is right, then There It Goes might be from the session which spawned the Light Into Dark tracks. However an accurate date is hard to give as the band seemed to have gone in and out of Reel Time Studios in an on going fashion recording in numerous sessions over time.
Seems right to me as My Dahlia was also recorded then. So it's not too far a stretch to put There It Goes and Under Your Spell from MP in the same line of sessions at Reel Time Studios, is it?

Still missing:
- the second Bob English tape featuring at least: My Eternity, Armed to the Teeth, Screaming, Bleed and There It Goes with a drum machine.
Allegedly this was the tape that got Joe Shanahan hooked on the Pumpkins.
Now I have to produce this from memory, but when memory serves me well here, Joe - in either the Graceful Swans or Full Circle documentary - mentions he had been given/sent a tape by Corgan which he played over and over in his car featuring at least one or two of the titles supposed to be on the second Bob English tape. Will have to dig out the VCDs to be quite sure though.
Then it's June 88 and this tape is recorded. Shortly thereafter Corgan puts it in Joe's hands and he's hooked. Let's say he plays it over and over during July. Then in August the Pumpkins play their first ever show as a three piece, playing songs from Joe's tape and he goes to see them at Avalon. Liking what he hears and had heard on the tape he offer the Pumpkins a Metro-show opening slot, but demands they find a live drummer. Then JC enters the scene.
So the very tape that got Joe Shanahan hooked and got him to go see the band play at Avalon is a tape featuring some of the material played at Avalon, using a drum machine in recording. This tape still remains unsurfaced.

[List On Fork]

Where has this version of "I Fall" surfaced?

[mistle]

there's an i fall demo?? sweeet, i had no idea

[transluscent]

The Smashing Pumpkins
xx-xx-88 "The Ignoffo Tape"

Source: STU>ANA-2>DATM
Conversion: Technics tape deck>DAT>DAT2WAV
Encode: wav's>FLAC

**************************************************
THIS SHOW IS NOT TO BE MP3-ENCODED
**************************************************

Disc 1
01. I Am One (4:19)
02. Bury Me (4:14)
03. Daydream (1:53)
04. Not Worth Asking (4:00)
05. Honeyspider (2:25)
06. Rhinoceros (5:25)
07. Snap (3:32)
08. Love (3:35)
09. C'mon (4:54)
10. Under Your Spell (3:56)
11. Jennifer Ever [Click Track] (3:32)
12. There It Goes [Cut] (4:23)

Disc 2:
01. There It Goes (5:36)
02. She (3:52)
03. My Eternity (5:55)
04. Oui Henri (5:07)
05. Spiteface (4:26)
06. Nothing and Everything (6:27)
07. Cinnamon Girl (2:37)
08. Time Has Come Today (4:05)
09. My Dahlia (3:41)
BONUS FILLER:
10. My Dahlia [Rehearsal] (4:17)
11. The Crystal Ship (2:47)
12. I Fall (5:58)

Notes:

D1:
T12: Cut as per master

D2:
T1-3,5-6: 10/05/88 - Metro; Chicago, IL, US (slight analog noise in T1)
T4:11/23/88 - Metro; Chicago, IL, US [AUD>Reel2Reel>ANA-1>DAT-M]
T7,9: 1989 - Reel Time Studios
T8: 11/20/88 Last Exit, Chicago, IL [AUD>Reel2Reel>ANA-1>DAT-M]
T10-11: From "The Psycho Tape," an unseeded compilation of early Pumpkins material. Consider this a tease.
T12: 1988: Billy's Father's Home Studio [STU>ANA-2>FLAC]

[Steve Holt]

i love threads like this

[Endless Whining]

source of this I Fall demo is a tape Corgan made called 'Gish/Moon' on which I Fall was added as a filler on the b-side.
This tape also *******d Reel Time Sessions material and Time Has Come Today [live].

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by transluscent

T12: 1988: Billy's Father's Home Studio [STU>ANA-2>FLAC]

yep.

[Fonzie]

Oh - I missed this gem -

From PreMarked-BillyTracks.txt -

That being said, I would like to state that I refuse to
believe there is a studio version of Jesus Loves His
Babies, and I refuse to believe in the existence of
completed versions of most of Pastichio Medley.

- Dave

[zsp77]

There sure are some smart MF'rs around here. After being a huge fan since 93, I never realized how little I know. Thanx for the schooling.

[Fonzie]

there's definately a shedload of info - it's a pity it's not all collated in one big-ass place.

[mistle]

Originally Posted by transluscent

The Smashing Pumpkins
xx-xx-88 "The Ignoffo Tape"

Source: STU>ANA-2>DATM
Conversion: Technics tape deck>DAT>DAT2WAV
Encode: wav's>FLAC

**************************************************
THIS SHOW IS NOT TO BE MP3-ENCODED
**************************************************

Disc 1
01. I Am One (4:19)
02. Bury Me (4:14)
03. Daydream (1:53)
04. Not Worth Asking (4:00)
05. Honeyspider (2:25)
06. Rhinoceros (5:25)
07. Snap (3:32)
08. Love (3:35)
09. C'mon (4:54)
10. Under Your Spell (3:56)
11. Jennifer Ever [Click Track] (3:32)
12. There It Goes [Cut] (4:23)

Disc 2:
01. There It Goes (5:36)
02. She (3:52)
03. My Eternity (5:55)
04. Oui Henri (5:07)
05. Spiteface (4:26)
06. Nothing and Everything (6:27)
07. Cinnamon Girl (2:37)
08. Time Has Come Today (4:05)
09. My Dahlia (3:41)
BONUS FILLER:
10. My Dahlia [Rehearsal] (4:17)
11. The Crystal Ship (2:47)
12. I Fall (5:58)

Notes:

D1:
T12: Cut as per master

D2:
T1-3,5-6: 10/05/88 - Metro; Chicago, IL, US (slight analog noise in T1)
T4:11/23/88 - Metro; Chicago, IL, US [AUD>Reel2Reel>ANA-1>DAT-M]
T7,9: 1989 - Reel Time Studios
T8: 11/20/88 Last Exit, Chicago, IL [AUD>Reel2Reel>ANA-1>DAT-M]
T10-11: From "The Psycho Tape," an unseeded compilation of early Pumpkins material. Consider this a tease.
T12: 1988: Billy's Father's Home Studio [STU>ANA-2>FLAC]

oh jeex. i never bothered with downloading that. i guess i never bothered to read the whole tracklist either. me: 'have that, have that, have that, have thatZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz.. whatever'

[mistle]

thank you rspaa

[mistle]

ghosts don't cry??

a good thing about these old demos is i don't have to feel bad for making songs with incredibly bad use of drum machine. bolly did it too

[Pmack]

Oh - I missed this gem -

I don't know if it's entirely clear, but that statement from me was a joke of sorts. It went like this: if my suspicion was true that Hope was released officially because it was doubted to be authentic, then I was willing to publicly voice doubts that a studio JLHB existed. Y'know, so that Billy would prove to us that it really existed by releasing it.

At the time of writing that piece, I didn't have MP yet, but the tracklist was known. Everyone knew it supposedly existed, but no one had actually heard it.

[Richard D. James]

I have heard the My Eternity, There It Goes, and Under Your Spell all with the drum track. It sounds exactly like the drum machine from I Fall. The tape I heard had no Screaming, Armed To The Teeth, or Bleed. Are we sure that the tape that was given to Joe were studio recordings? Could it have been a copy of the Avalon show? I am going off of memory here and it is awfully early.

-GK

[List On Fork]

Originally Posted by Richard D. James

I have heard the My Eternity, There It Goes, and Under Your Spell all with the drum track. It sounds exactly like the drum machine from I Fall. The tape I heard had no Screaming, Armed To The Teeth, or Bleed. Are we sure that the tape that was given to Joe were studio recordings? Could it have been a copy of the Avalon show?

That's a good point -- The Avalon SBDs do sound very much like lowfi demos. The first time I heard "Bleed" on MP I thought it was a demo until I heard the applause at the end.

But when you say "I have heard the My Eternity" . . . Where has this surfaced? Are you sure it's the 1988 demo, because there are a few live SBDs (avalon, wxrt) that sound like demos, and this is the first I've heard of this song surfacing. (Not that I couldn't have missed it, though, as evidenced by "I Fall" slipping by me...)

[List On Fork]

06/88 - Bob English's house
Nothing Ever Changes sessions
BC, James and Roesing
- The Vigil
- Nothing and Everything
- Holiday
- Cross

Questions:

1. Where did the currently circulating copy of NEC come from? Did someone actually obtain an original copy of NEC? I seem to recall seeing a scan of the bleeding nun artwork a few years back.

2. Does anyone have a copy where Holiday and Cross are actually one song, as described in the recording chronology? I have only seen 4-song versions of NEC on the net.

3. Is Breathe a working title for Nothing and Everything?

4. Where did the description of a 60-minute version come from? Has anyone seen/heard this, or did BC mention it? Who recalled it as "bad poetry" -- BC or a listener?

mid 1988 (?)
tape given to Joe Shanahan
BC, James & drum machine
Under Your Spell (available on MP)
There It Goes (available on MP)
I Fall (available on Ignoffo Tape)
My Eternity (available on SP.com radio)
Bleed
Armed to the Teeth
Screaming
[possibly more]

Questions

1. Where did the knowledge of this tape come from? Joe, BC or otherwise? How do we have a partial tracklisting? Could these songs be from the Avalon, or is it certain they are demos? What is actually known?

2. Is it safe to assume that BC was incorrect in earmarking I Fall as from 1987? Can we assume, based on the sound of the demo, that it was recorded with these others, and that James plays on it? Dave, can you recall the conversation and place it into context? Did BC confidently say 1987, or was it a guess? And how accurate have his recollections & dates been in the past?

3. Endless Whining speculated that There It Goes & Under Your Spell feature live drumming. Personally, I think There It Goes sounds like a drum machine fairly clearly, but Under Your Spell is possibly debatable. Anyone have thoughts on this?

[Starchildren]

Originally Posted by List On Fork

But when you say "I have heard the My Eternity" . . . Where has this surfaced? Are you sure it's the 1988 demo, because there are a few live SBDs (avalon, wxrt) that sound like demos, and this is the first I've heard of this song surfacing. (Not that I couldn't have missed it, though, as evidenced by "I Fall" slipping by me...)

you did miss it. it was on the official site in one of the radio station playlists 6 years ago.

the tower one maybe? i can't remember.

[Pmack]

1) My Eternity demo-- this was played at the end of some radio interview years ago. 1995 maybe? Someone else slip in here with the details. The song was cut off because the show ended while the song was playing.

If it was played on SP Radio (and it might have been, I can't remember), it is available in trading circles.

2) Billy told me the info about the 60m Nothing Ever Changes. He had told me his copy was lost somewhere, so I gave him a copy of what I had. He explained how what I had was a partial version, and he is the one who described it as "bad poetry'.

3) The description of NEC as a 3 song demo was based on a description of NEC by Bob English to someone else (Dave Mead? Shawn Turner?). I think it may have been a phone conversation, and it was transcribed as "It Suits Me Well, Breathe, Heart and Cross." It was unclear if that was 3 or 4 songs. A few years later, I spoke with Ron Roesing who owned a copy, and he told me it was 3 songs. He had the tape, but I don't think he had an actual tracklist for it. Later when I got a copy from him, I found it was 4 songs, and because I had Avalon, I was able to identify the actual titles.

4) When I told Billy I had gotten a copy of "I Fall" (I had actually received it the day before), he gave me the info about it without hesitation. He said he recorded it in his father's studio with James in '87, and it was part of a group of 12 songs. There was no struggling to remember; he IDed it as if he had just recorded it a week earlier. (I also told him it sounded like a bad Smiths ripoff; he didn't reply, but I could tell the comment annoyed him a little)

Caveat lector; I'm going by memory here. I've told these stories several times, so if by chance someone chimes in with slightly different details from a previous telling, trust the older recounting, as it's likely to be more accurate.

[mistle]

Originally Posted by Pmack

I also told him it sounded like a bad Smiths ripoff

ouch. i would have punched you in the face

[Richard D. James]

The My Eternity, There It Goes, and Under Your Spell I heard were NOT the versions that are on MP or Avalon. They sounded slightly different than the ones that we are all familiar with because of the distinct I Fall, NEC drum machine. I am thinking the tape that I heard was from Billy's Fathers Home Studio where My Dahlia, Armed To The Teeth, etc...were recorded. The drum track for There It Goes was a distinct drum machine, no doubt about it. I don't have this tape, and it has not surfaced...trust me I have been trying for 3 years to get a copy of the tape with no luck. It also had other stuff not studio on it that I don't think I had heard before, like a new version of She, Spiteface, and something else live. I wrote about it in the thread about "Showing Your Hands" about 3 years back.

-GK

[transluscent]

yeah there is a studio demo of my eternity, it was on the O-site radio streams.

http://rspaa.niluje.net/data/Miscell...io%201988).mp3

[ChoobieWoobie]

I'm pretty sure the o-site My Eternity was actually audio from the 11-19-88 PULSE Cable show. I'm too stoned to dig any further into that right now.