Universal Healthcare is Wonderful and Will Ensure Better Health care for everyone

[Trotskilicious]

the illegal traffic from canada has to stop!!!!

[Mayfuck]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

there's a reason people think you are a racist and it's sad how you try and pretend like you aren't.

It's not just nimrod. I was really referring to the grassroots arm of the anti-immigration folk, groups like the minutemen and Save our State who do not hide the racial element of their movements. Meanwhile republicans knowingly pass on denouncing these groups because its important to have them on board to galvanize their base, to let them do the mudslinging against immigrants.

[Trotskilicious]

yup

same old crap since 1835

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

haha what you sound like this guy





nimrod if you want people to stop playing the race card against stop saying racist comments as "jokes"

there's a reason people think you are a racist and it's sad how you try and pretend like you aren't.

I don't blame the people you moron, I blame the system that is set up to reward such behavior.

[Trotskilicious]

ok so how did they bankrupt california

[Trotskilicious]

the crystal ball says nimrod will reply "I don't have time to explain things to you, idiot."

[Crippler]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

ok so how did they bankrupt california

You're a homeless guy and you go to a supermarket. You see that the supermarket is handing out free samples of food that the store is selling. You grab a bunch of the samples, and then leave without paying the store a cent.

The point of those samples are to entice people into actually buying the product in question, i.e.: paying money for the actual product the store is providing a sample of. But this homeless man isn't doing this. He's mooching off the store and not giving the store one thin dime in return. And he's going to keep getting away with this, because the store isn't going to stop handing out these samples, because there are many people out there who are actually going to use them the way they were meant to be used...as a taste of the real thing, not the lifeblood of moochers.

This is similar to what our increasingly lax attitude toward illegal immigration is doing to states with high concentrations of illegals, like California. Illegals don't pay taxes; they don't contribute anything toward these government-provided services, yet libs have no problem with heaping all these perks on them like they don't cost taxpayers and the state anything. Like Nimrod said, providing these benefits to illegals is just negative reinforcement. It's one thing to give people enough to get on their feet, and it's one thing to give would-be immigrants guest-worker programs to allow people to enter the country legally. It's another thing to continue to allow the countless amounts of illegals to leech off a system they put nothing back into.

This isn't racism, it's a fact. This may not be the entire problem with the budget in California, but there's no fucking way it's not at least part of it.

Just because they crossed the borders illegally shouldn't necessarily make them my responsibility by default.

As an aside, a new bill (H.R. 2812) was recently introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives by Texas Democrat Rep. Salvador Ortiz, which if passed would essentially make it easier for pregnant Mexican women to use American/Mexican midwives and U.S. border birthing facilities inside U.S. borders to birth their children, and immediately acquire U.S. citizenship and passports on the word of midwives. Hmm...anchor babies, anyone?

[maoi]

ahahah crippler is a conservative

[Crippler]

Originally Posted by maoi

ahahah crippler is a conservative

Oh, I'm sorry. I almost forgot that this is Netphoria, where anyone who isn't a liberal is pretty much automatically written off as being a moron.

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by Crippler

As an aside, a new bill (H.R. 2812) was recently introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives by Texas Democrat Rep. Salvador Ortiz,/QUOTE]
Where do you get your information from?

There is no Representative from Texas named Salvador Ortiz. There is a Solomon Ortiz.

Originally Posted by Crippler

which if passed would essentially make it easier for pregnant Mexican women to use American/Mexican midwives and U.S. border birthing facilities inside U.S. borders to birth their children, and immediately acquire U.S. citizenship and passports on the word of midwives. Hmm...anchor babies, anyone?

Reading your own words, the bill would essentially make it easier for people born in the united states to acquire a passport.

outrageous

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by Crippler

This is similar to what our increasingly lax attitude toward illegal immigration is doing to states with high concentrations of illegals, like California. Illegals don't pay taxes; they don't contribute anything toward these government-provided services, yet libs have no problem with heaping all these perks on them like they don't cost taxpayers and the state anything. Like Nimrod said, providing these benefits to illegals is just negative reinforcement. It's one thing to give people enough to get on their feet, and it's one thing to give would-be immigrants guest-worker programs to allow people to enter the country legally. It's another thing to continue to allow the countless amounts of illegals to leech off a system they put nothing back into.

So how do illegal immigrants avoid paying sales tax? gas tax? property tax on a home? Social Security witholding?

illegal immigration is bad. just not as bad as you think it is. there are so many worse things to worry about in this economy. illegal immigration is just an easy scapecoat for people who don't want to think too hard.

[maoi]

They also provide cheap labor and keep the cost of goods down.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Crippler

Oh, I'm sorry. I almost forgot that this is Netphoria, where anyone who isn't a liberal is pretty much automatically written off as being a moron.

Well if you could point me to one conservative on this board that wasn't a head up his ass moron for many reasons besides their politics, I might be able to dispute this point but we got Corganist and Nimrod so...

and don't say jczeroman because he's a far radical liberal.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Debaser

illegal immigration is just an easy scapecoat for people who don't want to think too hard.

Like this fella.

[Trotskilicious]

and goddamn it why can't you guys be a brutal poet like bill is

Is your mouth all glued up with cunny juice I asked you a question.

[Trotskilicious]

also why don't we just naturalize all of them as they came in like they did in bill's time mm?

oh dear what craziness

[Crippler]

Originally Posted by Debaser

There is no Representative from Texas named Salvador Ortiz. There is a Solomon Ortiz.

Technicalities, technicalities.

Originally Posted by Debaser

So how do illegal immigrants avoid paying sales tax? gas tax? property tax on a home? Social Security witholding?

What illegals likely put into the government via paying sales taxes and gas taxes is a microcosm compared to what illegals likely actually take out in terms of having services heaped upon them (welfare, public aid, etc). And how many illegals actually own a house and are paying property taxes? As for Social Security withholding, that's assuming most illegals are actually being paid legitimately, as opposed to under the table, which is far more likely.

[ryan patrick]

Originally Posted by Crippler

What illegals likely put into the government via paying sales taxes and gas taxes is a microcosm compared to what illegals likely actually take out in terms of having services heaped upon them (welfare, public aid, etc).

i don't think that's how you use the word microcosm

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

Well if you could point me to one conservative on this board that wasn't a head up his ass moron for many reasons besides their politics, I might be able to dispute this point but we got Corganist and Nimrod so...

You just proved his point.

What reason would you have to call me a head up my ass moron other than my politics?

[Crippler]

Originally Posted by ryan patrick

i don't think that's how you use the word microcosm

Fine. Drop in the bucket. Geez.

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by jukeboxphuckup

Ok so you guys have stated why universal health care will be so terrible, but you do realize there are flaws in our current system, right? You know about the 47 million people in this country who don't have health insurance (and if you want to subtract the 12 million illegal aliens, that's fine, but 35 million is still a tenth of our population).

And of that 35 million, how many can afford insurance and just choose not to buy it, either because they're young and invincible or they just can afford to pay out of pocket? Quite a few. How many are between jobs and just don't have insurance at one point or another through the year but have it when they're employed? Quite a few more. There's a lot more going on in those numbers than anyone is letting on.

And even if you use the worst interpretation of the numbers, that amounts to what? 15 percent of the country uninsured? That's not ideal, but that's not a crisis either. It's certainly not enough of one to throw out the baby with the bathwater and start up a new system from the ground level willy-nilly. How can we gamble with the coverage of the 80ish percent of the country who is insured in such a way?

You should know that even if you have private health insurance you still have to deal with the bureaucracy of your insurance company. You still have to get pre-authorization. You still get denied coverage. Doctors fight with insurance companies all the time to get their patients approved for ESSENTIAL procedures. You still have restrictions on which doctors you can see, because not all insurance plans are accepted by all doctors (and why is that? well doctors don't accept certain plans because those companies have a piss poor reputation when it comes to paying for services in full and on time).

It's funny you should bring that up, because do you know who has the worst reputation in the health-care industry for paying for services in full and on time? The United States Government! A lot of providers just don't take medicare and medicaid patients because the government just doesn't pay what they're supposed to on it. And then, private insurance has to take up the slack. And because the government's ineptitude has heaped demand on private insurance, private insurance premiums go up. So we have a situation where government involvement has fucked the whole system...and the answer is more government involvement? How is that supposed to work? What makes anyone think the government can run a universal program if they can barely run something as decidedly smaller in scale as Medicare?

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by Crippler

What illegals likely put into the government via paying sales taxes and gas taxes is a microcosm compared to what illegals likely actually take out in terms of having services heaped upon them (welfare, public aid, etc). And how many illegals actually own a house and are paying property taxes? As for Social Security withholding, that's assuming most illegals are actually being paid legitimately, as opposed to under the table, which is far more likely.

How would you know? You're just forming the assumptions to make yourself feel better. You think all these illegal immigrants are homeless? Even if they're just renting, they're paying fees and taxes on utilities, and paying a landlord who pays property taxes.

It's a reasonable to assume that illegal immigration is a net drain on the economy, but you're obviously exaggerating the problems.

My original point stands: there are more important things that need fixing.

Even if you got your wish and we magically disappeared all illegal immigrants from California, guess what, the state would be still bankrupt.

[Crippler]

Originally Posted by Debaser

You're just forming the assumptions to make yourself feel better.

So are you.

You're assuming that many if not most illegals actually own homes and/or are paying rent and some form of taxation legitimately. And I never said that most illegals are homeless. I'm willing to wager, though, that there are far more illegals living in government-subsidized homes (again, another thing my tax dollars are paying for) than a place that they've paid for completely out of their own pocket.

I'm not saying that only illegals use government-funded subsidies (such as welfare checks, subsidized housing and food stamps), or anything ridiculous like that. What I'm saying is that it's far easier than people realize for illegals to get what are essentially free rides in this country, which is, as I've stated above, a form of negative reinforcement. And it sure as hell isn't helping the economy, no matter what way you spin it.

Again, I'm not trying to be a racist. But I've yet to understand why liberals insist that this is a non-issue.

[Crippler]

Originally Posted by Corganist

What makes anyone think the government can run a universal program if they can barely run something as decidedly smaller in scale as Medicare?

Because big government is more trustworthy than big business what it comes to our best interests. Like, DUH!

[Trotskilicious]

crippler have you been lurking this whole time

font colors are so 2002

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Corganist

You just proved his point.

What reason would you have to call me a head up my ass moron other than my politics?

.

[Trotskilicious]

i mean if it helps you sleep at night that i think you're a fuckhead simply because of your politics then go right ahead

how about the way you talk about arkansas football like you're just a coach away from a national title

i don't need to make a list. your politics are just the icing on the douchebag cake.

[dr.benway]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

You're not enforcing immigration, you're killing incentive. Your statement would be the same as saying "don't blame the employers who hire illegals, just enforce the borders."

Yes, the borders should be enforced, but that doesn't help that you have millions of people who have bankrupted California and are now working on the rest of the country already here.

Also can we please not play the race card? Illegals from any country, including Canada and Europe are included. There are a good number of illegals from eastern Europe who would be considered "white" you know.

fact is "illegals" bring great profit. people only want them gone when there's a crisis.

what is more convenient then the possibility of underpaying someone, abusing them, without them having the legal right to demand anything?

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by Crippler

But I've yet to understand why liberals insist that this is a non-issue.

Originally Posted by Debaser

Even if you got your wish and we magically disappeared all illegal immigrants from California, guess what, the state would be still bankrupt.

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by Corganist

It's funny you should bring that up, because do you know who has the worst reputation in the health-care industry for paying for services in full and on time? The United States Government! A lot of providers just don't take medicare and medicaid patients because the government just doesn't pay what they're supposed to on it. And then, private insurance has to take up the slack. And because the government's ineptitude has heaped demand on private insurance, private insurance premiums go up. So we have a situation where government involvement has fucked the whole system...and the answer is more government involvement? How is that supposed to work? What makes anyone think the government can run a universal program if they can barely run something as decidedly smaller in scale as Medicare?

This notion that "the govt just doesn't pay what they're supposed to" is not a bug but a feature. I guess if you're a private insurance company or drug company and you see how medicaid and medicare, with their massive benefits of scale, reap huge savings and cost reductions (e.g., medicaid negotiating deep discounts on drugs), you would be apt to accuse them of "not paying what they're suppose to."

Medicare has kept its cost growth below that of the private insurers. Both Medicare and Medicaid have wildly low administration costs compared to that of the private insurance (6% vs 30%).

And if anybody jumps up to accuse the govt of forcing medicare/medicaid on anybody, it's simply not true. Medical facilities are free to decide whether they will accept or refuse medicare/medicaid patients. Obviously, hospitals do not make as much profit from medicare/medicaid patients compared to privately insured patients. But if it becomes actually unprofitable, then hospitals all over the country would drop their medicare/medicaid patients and it would spurn the govt to raise their reimbursement rates.

Despite this popular meme that private companies always run things more efficiently than govt, it's simply not true in the case of healthcare. And why is that?

The key is probably the fact that the govt is not looking to make a profit in this business. There is just something distasteful with having a profit motive here, where it benefits a private insurance to deny somebody coverage or underinsure them.

Now some may say that being nonprofit gives the govt system an unfair advantage over the private market, but again, I would say that's a feature, not a bug. The private market should do better. They're always suppose to do better than govt, right?