Netphoria Message Board


Go Back   Netphoria Message Board > Archives > Pumpkins Archive
Register Netphoria's Amazon.com Link Members List Mark Forums Read

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-21-2007, 10:27 PM   #181
Mablak
Minion of Satan
 
Mablak's Avatar
 
Location: Well, if it isn't my old friend, Mr. McGreg, with a leg for an arm and an arm for a leg!
Posts: 6,411
Default

Well we've established that a good portion of pumpkins fans have something terribly wrong with their ability to reason, nothing we didn't already know.

 
Mablak is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 10:28 PM   #182
sleeper
Minion of Satan
 
sleeper's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,799
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by exactlythesame
Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian fundamentalists, but not in the extreme sense that that designation has come to have. We simply rely on the Bible as the ultimate source of truth, and do not go beyond what the Scriptures provide.

This view of creation is universal amongst Witnesses.
very interesting.

what do you mean, exactly, when you say you dont go beyond what the scriptures provide? do you merely mean the apocrypha? or historical information that establishes context and stuff like that?

so, hypothetically, you would override factual evidence with dogma? that sounds nefarious when i word it like that, but, honestly, i think thats just because its an honest characterization of a pretty nefarious thing. if reality said x but your book said y, youd believe y? where do you draw the line?
i do want to really challenge you on this because i think its verging on the inexcusable. i think its dangerous and, while your dogma isnt saying "slaughter kittens" or something, what if it did? to paraphrase sam harris, people have to be willing to have their certainties constrained by evidence. one always has to be open to new information and argument.

 
sleeper is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 10:31 PM   #183
sleeper
Minion of Satan
 
sleeper's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,799
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by exactlythesame
It would literally take me hours to work all the 'problems' you come up with in that single post alone, and it's certainly too late right now to even begin to attempt it.

But after reading that once, it seems like there are a lot of things which are, at best, misunderstandings of the context and / or what was meant by Bible writers and God himself, whenever he infers something about his nature. You seem to be a critical thinker.

There's definitely not any special code that one needs to get truth out of the Bible. The best place to start is just by having the right attitude about it -- wanting to learn and seeking answers accordingly.
thats fine and you have no obligation to slave away for me. ill say i was kind of expecting you to just casually cite thing and not actually transcribe line and verse and whatever. depth isnt really needed for out purposes.

 
sleeper is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 10:31 PM   #184
JSP552003
Amish Rake Fighter
 
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by exactlythesame
Wouldn't this simply be variation in species and not evolution of any kind?

that's the defintion of microevolution. this was taken from dictionary.com:

microevolution: evolutionary change involving the gradual accumulation of mutations leading to new varieties within a species

 
JSP552003 is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 10:41 PM   #185
sleeper
Minion of Satan
 
sleeper's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,799
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroplane
you might find this theory interesting - the universe is inifinite in time and space. what does this mean?

the big bang may not have been the FIRST big bang. right now the universe is expanding at an alarming rate and has been since the big bang because there's nothing outside the universe (the void) to slow it down, or so the current theory goes. and so it will continue to expand.

however, the universe only has so much mass, and eventually, this mass will be stretched to its fullest, and at this time, the universe will slow, stop, then start collapsing on itself just as a star does after its exhausted. soon, it will collapse to a microscopic point, and then BOOM! It happens again.

The theory goes that this could be happening over and over and over again, creating new universes each time. Therefore, the universe is infinite, it has and always will . . . be.

I forget the name of this theory but I really like it.
thats funny, because i knew nothing of this theory existing but i thought of the same thing by myself before for fun and kind of liked it. i dont know how well its supported by cosmogony or physics (i really need to learn more about the former especially, it has huge philosophical implications), but it is a kind of "beautiful" idea and i sort of want it to be true for aesthetic reasons if not any other.

when i think about it i think about how much better it would be from a purely practical perspective if people didnt believe in an afterlife and instead believed in something like this. i think an appreciation of things being eternally cyclical would really impose some wisdom on people and compel them to get the most out of life. if life is merely a prelude to an eternal afterlife, it becomes much more cheap and much less significant.

 
sleeper is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 10:45 PM   #186
i_adore_adore
Apocalyptic Poster
 
i_adore_adore's Avatar
 
Location: IL
Posts: 3,559
Default

Life in general just sucks to me. We're all gonna die anyway. Sometimes I get really down because I think, "What does it matter? We're all gonna die, and then our babies are gonna die... nothing matters." So then I just get sad.

Then I realize, "Well, I'm too chicken to kill myself, so I'm stuck here. Might as well have fun."

I don't think that thinking of the origin of the universe would make me feel any differently, since we're STILL all going to die.

Man, I sound like such a teenager...


EDITTT: just re-read your post, I misunderstood it the first time. Now that I get what you were saying, I think maybe you're right. about people getting more out of life.

 
i_adore_adore is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 10:46 PM   #187
exactlythesame
Minion of Satan
 
exactlythesame's Avatar
 
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
yeah ive always found that interesting. i read that one of the novel things about jehovah was that he was metaphysical and not physical. basically all the other gods to that point (in that area or in the world, i forget) were (or resided in) physical objects, and that if you, say, smashed one, that god would basically "die."

honestly, how often does god refer to other gods as being imaginary (not necessarily that word, that concept)? the net impression i got was that they were just lesser, inferior gods -- gods you could pray or appeal to, gods with powers, but not the real mccoy like jehovah was.
Isaiah 43:10, 11 -- "Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”

You also have my previous example of those gods who were worshiped as idols of wood, stone, metal, etc. as not having any ability to save or benefit their worshipers. Jehovah God stands completely different from this category in that he truly did save his people and performed great acts in their behalf -- proof positive that he existed, had power, and cared enough to help his servants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
i dont really buy this, unfortunately. i remember when they were first leaving egypt god would deliberately make things difficult for them in order to teach them a lesson or something, not as punishment (so god does punish/reward us in our lives? not only after? the new testament seems to say the opposite), like how he repeatedly hardened the heart of the pharaoh to resist moses's appeals and keep the israelites there. sometimes (if i recall) he both hardened pharoahs heart (basically making the decision for him) and then punished egypt for his decision with some plague.

i remember similar things where god both personally creates some situation, directly or indirectly, and then hands our rewards and punishments accordingly. im really starting to wish i wrote down all these references so i could speak with authority and not just say "i think i remember," but i think i remember (ehghhhhh) god making someone (non israelite) do something and then later lambasting him for being wicked and then killing him in punishment -- while maybe letting the israelites massacre every inhabitant of his city (women and children *******d, as god explicitly pointed out on more than one occasion) for good measure
Here there is a very small translation issue which can turn into a very big problem for someone who reads as closely as you do. When you change the word from "let Pharaoh's heart become obstinate" to "make Pharaoh's heart become obstinate," you alter the meaning and implications tremendously. Surely there is a decided difference in allowing something to happen and causing it to happen. Pharaoh had his choice in the matter, which is born out by the fact that God had Moses and Aaron continually approaching Pharaoh to see if he had changed his mind after each plague. This was not God's doing, but rather, the Pharaoh's pride.

In cases such as this, it's important to keep God's personality in view. The Bible reveals that God's cardinal qualities are love, justice, wisdom, and power. So anything he does must be in harmony with these four attributes. Looking at accounts such as this through that window helps us to understand what God's motivations and feelings were during those times.

Take the exodus from Egypt as an example. When the Israelites first settled there by means of Joseph's slavery, he ended being appointed over pretty much all of Egypt during that time of famine that was prophesied. The record tells us, though, that after Israel multiplied and became a great nation, a new Pharaoh came who didn't know Joseph, and began making slaves of the Israelites out of fear.

Now Jehovah had made a covenant with Abraham, that his seed would become like the stars of the heavens or the grains of the sand on the beach (numerous, in other words.) He intended keep that promise to Abraham through the Israelites, and in order to do this, they could not be subservient to Egypt, especially not when they were as mistreated as they were.

So God chose Moses as his representative by speaking to him through the burning thorn bush. After meeting with Pharaoh and performing signs (turning Aaron's stick into a snake and so on...) Pharaoh obstinately declined to let the Israelites go out to the wilderness to sacrifice. God gave him warning, and he ignored it. Begin plague one.

You know the rest of the story, but looking at it through the scope of his justice in carrying out his promises, his wisdom in how he fulfilled them, loving in how he cared for the needs of his people, and powerful in his great saving acts, you begin to see God in a different (less critical) light than before.

(Kudos to you if you actually read all this, by the way -- it certainly took a long time to type. )

 
exactlythesame is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 10:53 PM   #188
exactlythesame
Minion of Satan
 
exactlythesame's Avatar
 
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
very interesting.

what do you mean, exactly, when you say you dont go beyond what the scriptures provide? do you merely mean the apocrypha? or historical information that establishes context and stuff like that?

so, hypothetically, you would override factual evidence with dogma? that sounds nefarious when i word it like that, but, honestly, i think thats just because its an honest characterization of a pretty nefarious thing. if reality said x but your book said y, youd believe y? where do you draw the line?
i do want to really challenge you on this because i think its verging on the inexcusable. i think its dangerous and, while your dogma isnt saying "slaughter kittens" or something, what if it did? to paraphrase sam harris, people have to be willing to have their certainties constrained by evidence. one always has to be open to new information and argument.
In other words, we don't use other documents (such as the Apocrypha, or, say, the Book of Mormon or the Quran) to base our doctrines and beliefs off of. We do use and cite secular sources quite frequently, but we believe these back the Bible up. Science doesn't prove the Bible (we already believe it's true), science augments what's there already. Of course, there are varying theories within science that disagree with the Bible, and since we have a basis for our beliefs already, we simply reject these. Obviously a theory that we descended from aliens (or something odd like that) would not agree with what the Bible teaches about creation.

We are not merely automatons though, without a brain to think for ourselves.

 
exactlythesame is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 10:53 PM   #189
<sp3
****
 
<sp3's Avatar
 
Location: live free or die
Posts: 1,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
honestly, ive never understood this thinking but i take it seriously because it seems to motivate so many. so many seem to see the amazing complexity (or whatever) of the universe and automatically infer god. i think its just a bad inference, frankly, and philosophically naive.

for one this was always the case, but with things that have now been reclaimed by rational understanding. before it used to be that, not physics or whatever, but the diversity and complexity of life -- thousands of species! the wonders of the human body! -- was incontrovertible proof of the hand of god. now, with the theory of evolution, that diversity and complexity is fully, rationally, and naturalistically explained, and inferring god here is a redundancy at very best.

two, this doesnt explain god himself. where did he come from? the world he created (ahem) is so marvelous and ingenious, so i guess hes even more marvelous and ingenious! so marvelous and ingenious that i feel that, wow, some truly amazing god must have created him... ok then what created that god? and so on. this line of argument is probably familiar to you and youll say: god is the uncreated by definition, the uncaused cause. but why are we allowed to say that he is uncaused, in all his splendor, and not that the world is uncaused, in all its splendor? at best this is just arbitrary and intellectually unsatisfying (to say the least). but say that god created us and he wasnt created: then according to what plan did he create us? what values were guiding his decisions? wouldnt their existence point to something above god? or did he also create those values (nonsensical)?

three, this, for the sake of argument, only points to the existence of a generic "god" (according to whatever definition). ive always really been stunned by the propensity of people to jump from this conclusion (a "god" exists) right into the highly specific dogma of one religion. even if we could prove that a "god" existed, there are still a million degrees of separation between that solid conclusion and, say, believing the koran or bible is the word of god -- and each step requires justification. so, id ask, why didnt you see that splendor and instantly become a muslim? if you were born in the middle east, studied science and came across the wonders of the natural world, can you honestly tell me that you would have still become a christian? i think reason compels you to admit that you wouldve become a muslim, and that should hammer home the arbitrary nature of ones religion, an "accident of geography" as its said.

theres also shit like "99.9% of all species have gone extinct (not the best designer, to say the least)" and a million other things to say but im tired

whelp.. you asked so..

1)

evolution does a good job of vaguely explaining a lot of things in the big picture, but fails miserably at fully explaining in detail what actually happened. Every evolutionary advance would have required a violation of the way we see science in every other discipline (to simplify, get to a lower energy/complexity state). To give a nice visual about what i am talking about... rocks wouldn't fall up a set of stairs. Now its quite possible that once in every great long while, a gust of wind or something may have hit the rock with just the right angle, at just the right force, to make it jump up a step or two.. but from amino acids-to living, breathing, emotion feeling human being is like a rock climbing up a staircase one thousand Mt Everests high (or a lot more). So to say that evolution "fully, rationally, and naturalistically explained" everything, in my opinion would be incorrect. See what i mean when i say there must have been some driving force behind it? what made that rock climb all those mountains? Its easy to see how a giraffe with just a slightly longer neck would be able to reach more leaves, and therefor have a greater chance of survival and be more likely to pass its genetics on to future generations.. and so on and so on.. so people who like simple answers to complex problems eat that stuff up and hold on to it for dear life, because they don't want to bother thinking about anything else. Forget the giraffe, and explain to me how a simple molecule becomes a complicated molecule.. let alone a single celled animal. There is no reason for those atoms to become "alive". No reason for those atoms to start to feel emotion. For people like myself who like to over-analyze everything until their head hurts, it simply does not add up. Again.. not a biologist and i don't claim to be, but the amazing complexity with which the universe is held together on a sub-atomic scale (which i do know a thing or two about) is equally as unbelievable. We think we know everything.. until someone proves us completely wrong and the process repeats. I don't think, unless we find some way to prove god, that we will ever be able to find "the ultimate truth" of the universe because, i believe (with faith) that god IS that ultimate truth.

2)

I don't think this argument is fair, because it is comparing god and man (or god and the earth/universe) on the same level. To argue that "well, if god made the universe, than what made god?" you would be saying that god and the universe exist in the same way, and are accountable to and must follow the same ground rules. God is god, whatever that is. I wont even begin to speculate what that is, because not I, nor the most brilliant scientists in the world, can even explain the universe we live in completely. God is not required to operate under the same laws of physics that you and I are. Remember, TIME itself is an invention of god. To him there may be no no beginning, or no end. This makes no sense to us because we live in a world where everything MUST have a beginning and an end. His rules are different, and we as humans may never have the capability of understanding them. This is where faith comes in, after all, that is the definition of the "GOD" (and i do not use that term loosely) that i believe in.. not a really smart guy who was made buy another really smart guy............etc.

3)

This is a good point.. tou-che. I cant really think of a good argument to combat this one. At this point in my life.. all i can convince myself of using my scientific mind is that there is a god.. there is a higher power above this world.. but i have nothin' that tells me it is defiantly the christian god. As stated before, i have just begun to read the bible in its entirety for the first time (and will probably take me several weeks). I only know the bits and pieces i learned in sunday school as a kid. Maybe once i am done i will have a clearer picture in my mind as why i chose this faith.. but then again thats where faith, and religion come in. I am not a fundamentalist, i hate the super-uber-TV evangelists and faith healers that give religion as a whole a bad name with all their fickle-mind, brain washing bullshit. I like the basic morality principles that Christianity is based on, and i am no expert on the subject.. but all i know is i could care less about god and religion when other people were trying to convince me of it. It was only when i started to figure it out by myself, for my own reasons, that it really stuck and i considered myself to be a christian, a believer in god. For this reason (my own personal experience with finding god), i plan on never forcing my beliefs on other people, but hope that they may too, in their own way figure out what i have.. because it is awesome, and so much more satisfying than trying to prove god does not exist. Science does not make me feel good inside.. god does.


and finally...


99.9% of species went extinct? this makes god suck? what if that was his plan?? there are a million reasons why this could have been the best way for things to happen. If not for the dinosaurs, you wouldn't have gas to put in your car to get you to work every day. Maybe god was looking out for your ass.. a long time before you were even born.

God kicks ass!!!

 
<sp3 is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 10:57 PM   #190
exactlythesame
Minion of Satan
 
exactlythesame's Avatar
 
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
thats funny, because i knew nothing of this theory existing but i thought of the same thing by myself before for fun and kind of liked it. i dont know how well its supported by cosmogony or physics (i really need to learn more about the former especially, it has huge philosophical implications), but it is a kind of "beautiful" idea and i sort of want it to be true for aesthetic reasons if not any other.

when i think about it i think about how much better it would be from a purely practical perspective if people didnt believe in an afterlife and instead believed in something like this. i think an appreciation of things being eternally cyclical would really impose some wisdom on people and compel them to get the most out of life. if life is merely a prelude to an eternal afterlife, it becomes much more cheap and much less significant.
But wouldn't such a belief, were it universal, only contribute to the degradation of society (carpe diem, live for the day, get everything you want out of life cause you only have one chance, etc...)? True, it may be aesthetic and perhaps balanced, but would it be worth such a bleak worldview?

 
exactlythesame is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:04 PM   #191
skipgo
Minion of Satan
 
skipgo's Avatar
 
Location: i'm a horrible human being
Posts: 9,141
Default

whew! i'm worn out from just reading the progress this thread has made in the few hours i was away from my computer.
probably one of the most interesting threads I've read here in a while, but unfortunately I don't have much to add to a lot of this, as I'm not nearly as familiar with the bible as I should be (my dad is quite the biblical scholar though, so I usually go to him when i have questions about it). At any rate, I've enjoyed reading all of your thoughts on the matter, and I'm very impressed with the civil manner in which it's all taking place. It's amazing to see so many people who have respect for those who don't necessarily agree with them. I love you people.

 
skipgo is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:06 PM   #192
Aeroplane
Minion of Satan
 
Aeroplane's Avatar
 
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
Default

soak it up while you can.

 
Aeroplane is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:07 PM   #193
exactlythesame
Minion of Satan
 
exactlythesame's Avatar
 
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipgo
whew! i'm worn out from just reading the progress this thread has made in the few hours i was away from my computer.
probably one of the most interesting threads I've read here in a while, but unfortunately I don't have much to add to a lot of this, as I'm not nearly as familiar with the bible as I should be (my dad is quite the biblical scholar though, so I usually go to him when i have questions about it). At any rate, I've enjoyed reading all of your thoughts on the matter, and I'm very impressed with the civil manner in which it's all taking place. It's amazing to see so many people who have respect for those who don't necessarily agree with them. I love you people.
Who would have thought it from the four of us: Sleeper, Aeroplane, i_adore_adore, and I would have such deep conversation?

That's more mind boggling than anything else we've discussed tonight.

 
exactlythesame is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:08 PM   #194
i_adore_adore
Apocalyptic Poster
 
i_adore_adore's Avatar
 
Location: IL
Posts: 3,559
Default

my thoughts exactly... I can't believe Corgan Rules hasn't come and been all BILLY CORGAN IS GOD YOU IDIOTS!

Just kidding

This is actually making me really want to read the bible. I tried once when I was like 8. haha, didn't work. Maybe I'll try 'er again.

 
i_adore_adore is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:10 PM   #195
waltermcphilp
Socialphobic
 
waltermcphilp's Avatar
 
Location: I DO C-C-C-COCAINE
Posts: 11,137
Default

this thread should have just been called TL;DR

 
waltermcphilp is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:10 PM   #196
exactlythesame
Minion of Satan
 
exactlythesame's Avatar
 
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_adore_adore
my thoughts exactly... I can't believe Corgan Rules hasn't come and been all BILLY CORGAN IS GOD YOU IDIOTS!

Just kidding

This is actually making me really want to read the bible. I tried once when I was like 8. haha, didn't work. Maybe I'll try 'er again.
Throw any questions you have my way and I'll do my best to answer them.

 
exactlythesame is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:11 PM   #197
exactlythesame
Minion of Satan
 
exactlythesame's Avatar
 
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waltermcphilp
this thread should have just been called TL;DR
Pretty much -- I was about to call some of my posts that.

 
exactlythesame is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:12 PM   #198
skipgo
Minion of Satan
 
skipgo's Avatar
 
Location: i'm a horrible human being
Posts: 9,141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waltermcphilp
this thread should have just been called TL;DR
that's probably why there haven't been more negative comments; the haters can't be bothered to read all of this

 
skipgo is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:13 PM   #199
exactlythesame
Minion of Satan
 
exactlythesame's Avatar
 
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
Default

Time for sleep -- I'll continue this tomorrow (if anyone is still up for it.)

 
exactlythesame is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:13 PM   #200
<sp3
****
 
<sp3's Avatar
 
Location: live free or die
Posts: 1,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroplane
you might find this theory interesting - the universe is inifinite in time and space. what does this mean?

the big bang may not have been the FIRST big bang. right now the universe is expanding at an alarming rate and has been since the big bang because there's nothing outside the universe (the void) to slow it down, or so the current theory goes. and so it will continue to expand.

however, the universe only has so much mass, and eventually, this mass will be stretched to its fullest, and at this time, the universe will slow, stop, then start collapsing on itself just as a star does after its exhausted. soon, it will collapse to a microscopic point, and then BOOM! It happens again.

The theory goes that this could be happening over and over and over again, creating new universes each time. Therefore, the universe is infinite, it has and always will . . . be.

I forget the name of this theory but I really like it.
Interesting theory, much like evolution. It does a good job at vaguely explaining alot of stuff.. but fails at specifically explaining the details.

In our universe, we have two things. Energy and mass (well thats one thing!) and the other thing, dimensions.. 3D space (height, length, and width) and time.

Because we live in an existence in a place with time.. there must have been a beginning. Its like saying you could have numbers with no zero.

God's universe however, may not have these same rules.. but i am not speculating like i have any idea what they could be.

Just another theory.

 
<sp3 is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:18 PM   #201
<sp3
****
 
<sp3's Avatar
 
Location: live free or die
Posts: 1,057
Default

i have enjoyed reading all of your posts.. best thread on netphoria in a while. Thanks for being civil.

 
<sp3 is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:22 PM   #202
sleeper
Minion of Satan
 
sleeper's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,799
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSP552003
i do not believe there is such a thing as being "more" of a christian or a "better" or "truer" christian as it's not a competition. it all really comes down to your relationship with jesus. also i'm not sure what you mean by believing anything beyond that because that pretty much sums up everything jesus was teaching
so i could hypothetically love god and love my neighbour and totally disbelieve in everything else and be a christian? i actually think this is more or less true (i do think that belief in a small number of key things is enough to make someone a christian in principle) but i dont really think that you cant make any disctinction amongst christians beyond this point.


Quote:
honestly i believe you can. i do, however, believe homosexuality to be a sin and please understand that i'm not trying to condemn or judge anyone. i believe that most christians over look the fact that all sin is the same in god's eyes and try to put sins in different categories. i mean obviously murder (and i'm not comparing homosexuality to murder at all! because that would be absurd so please don't think that) has totally different consequences than say gossip but the bottom line is it's still sin. the bible says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god. we make mistakes. even after you're saved you're going to mess up i promise you that from my own experience. and that doesn't make you not a christian, i believe that problem is when you KNOW you're sinning and yet you continue to do it.
ejjghhhh theres so much i could say here but my plate is already so full, i think ill just try to come back to this later






Quote:
i'm really not sure. according to the bible around 6,000 but i know i don't believe we evolved over billions and billions of years. i'm not sure we have the same definitions of micro and macro evolution. micro is evolution on a small scale and we've obviously seen this i mean look at all the different species of dogs. yes they've changed and evolved but the point is its still a dog. macroevolution tells us a rock turned into a human over billions of years on its own. see what i mean?
but apart from evolution for a moment, how old is the world? (i want to use this one issue as a way of getting at more fundemantal principles, so bear with me). is your belief "i dont know" or are you leaning strongly in one direction? do you think 6,000? because thats totally unsupported by evidence. the evidence supports the conclusion that the universe is around 14 point something billion years old and the earth 4.5 billion. now, do you acknowledge that evidence and reason are the final arbiters here of the age of the earth (and other objective claims), but think the evidence is poor/wrong/whatever? or do you think that evidence doesnt really matter, and that its superceded by what the bible says? if so, why is it alright for the bible to be in contradiciton to reality? or, rather, why is it alright for reality to be in contridicition to the bible, given that its the from god? i mean, something has to give here, and its not reality.

and evolution follows along the same path: do you just think the evidence is poor and thus dont accept its conclusion, or is it that you dont accept its conclusion whether or not the evidence is poor? if the latter, do you not accept the theory of evolution (in its entirety) exclusively for the reason that it contradicts creationism? if christianity made no claims here one way or the other, would you have any problem accepting evolution?

 
sleeper is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:25 PM   #203
i_adore_adore
Apocalyptic Poster
 
i_adore_adore's Avatar
 
Location: IL
Posts: 3,559
Default

Quote:
Interesting theory, much like evolution. It does a good job at vaguely explaining alot of stuff.. but fails at specifically explaining the details.

In our universe, we have two things. Energy and mass (well thats one thing!) and the other thing, dimensions.. 3D space (height, length, and width) and time.

Because we live in an existence in a place with time.. there must have been a beginning. Its like saying you could have numbers with no zero.

God's universe however, may not have these same rules.. but i am not speculating like i have any idea what they could be.

Just another theory.
But but but... you can't really back up God logically, either. Okay, I think what you're saying is that the whole IDEA of God is that he's not logical... he doesn't play by our rules. And the theory you're trying to discredit DOES sorta play by the rules of human beings... so you'd think we'd be able to really prove it? Is that what you're getting at? I guess I can accept that...

But maybe the human being's idea of logic is totally whack. Wouldn't that be fun?

I remember reading a Dean Koontz book one time... called... uuuh... Seize the Night, I think. Yeah (I've read close to 40 of his books; they all start to run together after a while!). He basically proposed the idea that Heaven and Hell are just alternate universes coexisting with THIS universe, and something happens when we die that allows us to mosey on over to one of the other alternate universes. I'm pretty sure this isn't a new idea, actually... I think I remember hearing about it elsewhere.

I don't personally believe this, but it's a nice thought. Like... maybe it's these universes that people describe when they die but get brought back (you know, the old woman on TV talking about the bright light and her dead cat on pearly stairs). People who accept that there are multiple universes probably thought this up.

Just throwing it out there. Why not?

Well, I was GOING to read Lord of the Rings again, but maybe I'll just have to go get a Bible from the library instead. hahahahhaa

 
i_adore_adore is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:27 PM   #204
<sp3
****
 
<sp3's Avatar
 
Location: live free or die
Posts: 1,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSP552003
that's the defintion of microevolution. this was taken from dictionary.com:

microevolution: evolutionary change involving the gradual accumulation of mutations leading to new varieties within a species

by variation within a species, i believe, he is referring to something else. not mutation at all, but that the genetic code was always there, just recessive traits and unique combinations of the same genetic material without any mutation to the actual DNA

 
<sp3 is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:29 PM   #205
sleeper
Minion of Satan
 
sleeper's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,799
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by exactlythesame
Isaiah....
im going to respond to all of this post but first let me seek confirmation on the following:

lets say the object of reading the bible is to discover its true meaning, whatever that is. (you agree, right?) in other words, if the one True interpretation of it was totally abysmal and made christianity into something really horrific, then so be it, thats what it is, yeah? so finding out what it is cant necessarily be guided by what seems right to us in 2007 (we cant err on the side of a positive interpretation solely because we are already assuming god is good and he would have chosen that). this is about honesty. an honest reading would take into account the thing as a whole -- the whole broad character and thrust of the book -- and wouldnt be selective, correct?

 
sleeper is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:29 PM   #206
Aeroplane
Minion of Satan
 
Aeroplane's Avatar
 
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
so i could hypothetically love god and love my neighbour and totally disbelieve in everything else and be a christian? i actually think this is more or less true (i do think that belief in a small number of key things is enough to make someone a christian in principle) but i dont really think that you cant make any disctinction amongst christians beyond this point.
from what I was raised to believe, to be a christian, you must "accept Jesus into your heart," claim that he is the son of god, that he died for your sins and was raised again and saved you from eternal damnation, and that there is no other way to this salvation except through the blood of Jesus. All else are false gods.

then the debate rages: once saved, always saved? meaning, if i "accept" Jesus, can I do whatever I want after that, or must I follow the morals/rules spelled out in the bible?

 
Aeroplane is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:31 PM   #207
i_adore_adore
Apocalyptic Poster
 
i_adore_adore's Avatar
 
Location: IL
Posts: 3,559
Default

as long as you confess, you're good!



Sadly, many believe this to be true... which I find preposterous.

 
i_adore_adore is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:33 PM   #208
<sp3
****
 
<sp3's Avatar
 
Location: live free or die
Posts: 1,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_adore_adore
Well, I was GOING to read Lord of the Rings again, but maybe I'll just have to go get a Bible from the library instead. hahahahhaa

do libraries even have bibles these days? i am sure if you went to a local church and talked to the paster/minister/priest and told him that you honestly wanted a bible so that you could read it start to finnish, they would give you one.

 
<sp3 is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:38 PM   #209
i_adore_adore
Apocalyptic Poster
 
i_adore_adore's Avatar
 
Location: IL
Posts: 3,559
Default

I'm sure I have one laying around the house, anyway. haha, I just meant because I would have gotten LOTR at the library (my Fellowship book has run away... it makes me sad ), so instead I'd just grab a bible.

I bet they'd have one... I wonder... *checks online* Well... uuuh... not sure if it's the actual bible. It's just called "The Bible," but I dunno.

haha, the library is close to my house... I'll just go there anyway. If it's not there, I'll grab something else to feel like I accomplished something.

 
i_adore_adore is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 11:39 PM   #210
Aeroplane
Minion of Satan
 
Aeroplane's Avatar
 
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
Default

i like the Picture Bible the best - the one that does the whole Bible as a graphic novel. Kick ass! (I'm serious - a bunch of Monks gave me one for my eighth birthday, uh, many years ago)

 
Aeroplane is offline
 


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is On
Google


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:18 PM.




Smashing Pumpkins, Alternative Music
& General Discussion Message Board and Forums
www.netphoria.org - Copyright © 1998-2022