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08-21-2007, 10:27 PM | #181 |
Minion of Satan
Location: Well, if it isn't my old friend, Mr. McGreg, with a leg for an arm and an arm for a leg!
Posts: 6,411
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Well we've established that a good portion of pumpkins fans have something terribly wrong with their ability to reason, nothing we didn't already know.
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08-21-2007, 10:28 PM | #182 | |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 8,799
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what do you mean, exactly, when you say you dont go beyond what the scriptures provide? do you merely mean the apocrypha? or historical information that establishes context and stuff like that? so, hypothetically, you would override factual evidence with dogma? that sounds nefarious when i word it like that, but, honestly, i think thats just because its an honest characterization of a pretty nefarious thing. if reality said x but your book said y, youd believe y? where do you draw the line? i do want to really challenge you on this because i think its verging on the inexcusable. i think its dangerous and, while your dogma isnt saying "slaughter kittens" or something, what if it did? to paraphrase sam harris, people have to be willing to have their certainties constrained by evidence. one always has to be open to new information and argument. |
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08-21-2007, 10:31 PM | #183 | |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 8,799
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08-21-2007, 10:31 PM | #184 | |
Amish Rake Fighter
Posts: 18
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that's the defintion of microevolution. this was taken from dictionary.com: microevolution: evolutionary change involving the gradual accumulation of mutations leading to new varieties within a species |
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08-21-2007, 10:41 PM | #185 | |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 8,799
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when i think about it i think about how much better it would be from a purely practical perspective if people didnt believe in an afterlife and instead believed in something like this. i think an appreciation of things being eternally cyclical would really impose some wisdom on people and compel them to get the most out of life. if life is merely a prelude to an eternal afterlife, it becomes much more cheap and much less significant. |
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08-21-2007, 10:45 PM | #186 |
Apocalyptic Poster
Location: IL
Posts: 3,559
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Life in general just sucks to me. We're all gonna die anyway. Sometimes I get really down because I think, "What does it matter? We're all gonna die, and then our babies are gonna die... nothing matters." So then I just get sad.
Then I realize, "Well, I'm too chicken to kill myself, so I'm stuck here. Might as well have fun." I don't think that thinking of the origin of the universe would make me feel any differently, since we're STILL all going to die. Man, I sound like such a teenager... EDITTT: just re-read your post, I misunderstood it the first time. Now that I get what you were saying, I think maybe you're right. about people getting more out of life. |
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08-21-2007, 10:46 PM | #187 | ||
Minion of Satan
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
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You also have my previous example of those gods who were worshiped as idols of wood, stone, metal, etc. as not having any ability to save or benefit their worshipers. Jehovah God stands completely different from this category in that he truly did save his people and performed great acts in their behalf -- proof positive that he existed, had power, and cared enough to help his servants. Quote:
In cases such as this, it's important to keep God's personality in view. The Bible reveals that God's cardinal qualities are love, justice, wisdom, and power. So anything he does must be in harmony with these four attributes. Looking at accounts such as this through that window helps us to understand what God's motivations and feelings were during those times. Take the exodus from Egypt as an example. When the Israelites first settled there by means of Joseph's slavery, he ended being appointed over pretty much all of Egypt during that time of famine that was prophesied. The record tells us, though, that after Israel multiplied and became a great nation, a new Pharaoh came who didn't know Joseph, and began making slaves of the Israelites out of fear. Now Jehovah had made a covenant with Abraham, that his seed would become like the stars of the heavens or the grains of the sand on the beach (numerous, in other words.) He intended keep that promise to Abraham through the Israelites, and in order to do this, they could not be subservient to Egypt, especially not when they were as mistreated as they were. So God chose Moses as his representative by speaking to him through the burning thorn bush. After meeting with Pharaoh and performing signs (turning Aaron's stick into a snake and so on...) Pharaoh obstinately declined to let the Israelites go out to the wilderness to sacrifice. God gave him warning, and he ignored it. Begin plague one. You know the rest of the story, but looking at it through the scope of his justice in carrying out his promises, his wisdom in how he fulfilled them, loving in how he cared for the needs of his people, and powerful in his great saving acts, you begin to see God in a different (less critical) light than before. (Kudos to you if you actually read all this, by the way -- it certainly took a long time to type. ) |
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08-21-2007, 10:53 PM | #188 | |
Minion of Satan
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
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We are not merely automatons though, without a brain to think for ourselves. |
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08-21-2007, 10:53 PM | #189 | |
****
Location: live free or die
Posts: 1,057
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whelp.. you asked so.. 1) evolution does a good job of vaguely explaining a lot of things in the big picture, but fails miserably at fully explaining in detail what actually happened. Every evolutionary advance would have required a violation of the way we see science in every other discipline (to simplify, get to a lower energy/complexity state). To give a nice visual about what i am talking about... rocks wouldn't fall up a set of stairs. Now its quite possible that once in every great long while, a gust of wind or something may have hit the rock with just the right angle, at just the right force, to make it jump up a step or two.. but from amino acids-to living, breathing, emotion feeling human being is like a rock climbing up a staircase one thousand Mt Everests high (or a lot more). So to say that evolution "fully, rationally, and naturalistically explained" everything, in my opinion would be incorrect. See what i mean when i say there must have been some driving force behind it? what made that rock climb all those mountains? Its easy to see how a giraffe with just a slightly longer neck would be able to reach more leaves, and therefor have a greater chance of survival and be more likely to pass its genetics on to future generations.. and so on and so on.. so people who like simple answers to complex problems eat that stuff up and hold on to it for dear life, because they don't want to bother thinking about anything else. Forget the giraffe, and explain to me how a simple molecule becomes a complicated molecule.. let alone a single celled animal. There is no reason for those atoms to become "alive". No reason for those atoms to start to feel emotion. For people like myself who like to over-analyze everything until their head hurts, it simply does not add up. Again.. not a biologist and i don't claim to be, but the amazing complexity with which the universe is held together on a sub-atomic scale (which i do know a thing or two about) is equally as unbelievable. We think we know everything.. until someone proves us completely wrong and the process repeats. I don't think, unless we find some way to prove god, that we will ever be able to find "the ultimate truth" of the universe because, i believe (with faith) that god IS that ultimate truth. 2) I don't think this argument is fair, because it is comparing god and man (or god and the earth/universe) on the same level. To argue that "well, if god made the universe, than what made god?" you would be saying that god and the universe exist in the same way, and are accountable to and must follow the same ground rules. God is god, whatever that is. I wont even begin to speculate what that is, because not I, nor the most brilliant scientists in the world, can even explain the universe we live in completely. God is not required to operate under the same laws of physics that you and I are. Remember, TIME itself is an invention of god. To him there may be no no beginning, or no end. This makes no sense to us because we live in a world where everything MUST have a beginning and an end. His rules are different, and we as humans may never have the capability of understanding them. This is where faith comes in, after all, that is the definition of the "GOD" (and i do not use that term loosely) that i believe in.. not a really smart guy who was made buy another really smart guy............etc. 3) This is a good point.. tou-che. I cant really think of a good argument to combat this one. At this point in my life.. all i can convince myself of using my scientific mind is that there is a god.. there is a higher power above this world.. but i have nothin' that tells me it is defiantly the christian god. As stated before, i have just begun to read the bible in its entirety for the first time (and will probably take me several weeks). I only know the bits and pieces i learned in sunday school as a kid. Maybe once i am done i will have a clearer picture in my mind as why i chose this faith.. but then again thats where faith, and religion come in. I am not a fundamentalist, i hate the super-uber-TV evangelists and faith healers that give religion as a whole a bad name with all their fickle-mind, brain washing bullshit. I like the basic morality principles that Christianity is based on, and i am no expert on the subject.. but all i know is i could care less about god and religion when other people were trying to convince me of it. It was only when i started to figure it out by myself, for my own reasons, that it really stuck and i considered myself to be a christian, a believer in god. For this reason (my own personal experience with finding god), i plan on never forcing my beliefs on other people, but hope that they may too, in their own way figure out what i have.. because it is awesome, and so much more satisfying than trying to prove god does not exist. Science does not make me feel good inside.. god does. and finally... 99.9% of species went extinct? this makes god suck? what if that was his plan?? there are a million reasons why this could have been the best way for things to happen. If not for the dinosaurs, you wouldn't have gas to put in your car to get you to work every day. Maybe god was looking out for your ass.. a long time before you were even born. God kicks ass!!! |
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08-21-2007, 10:57 PM | #190 | |
Minion of Satan
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
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08-21-2007, 11:04 PM | #191 |
Minion of Satan
Location: i'm a horrible human being
Posts: 9,141
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whew! i'm worn out from just reading the progress this thread has made in the few hours i was away from my computer.
probably one of the most interesting threads I've read here in a while, but unfortunately I don't have much to add to a lot of this, as I'm not nearly as familiar with the bible as I should be (my dad is quite the biblical scholar though, so I usually go to him when i have questions about it). At any rate, I've enjoyed reading all of your thoughts on the matter, and I'm very impressed with the civil manner in which it's all taking place. It's amazing to see so many people who have respect for those who don't necessarily agree with them. I love you people. |
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08-21-2007, 11:06 PM | #192 |
Minion of Satan
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
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soak it up while you can.
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08-21-2007, 11:07 PM | #193 | |
Minion of Satan
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
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That's more mind boggling than anything else we've discussed tonight. |
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08-21-2007, 11:08 PM | #194 |
Apocalyptic Poster
Location: IL
Posts: 3,559
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my thoughts exactly... I can't believe Corgan Rules hasn't come and been all BILLY CORGAN IS GOD YOU IDIOTS!
Just kidding This is actually making me really want to read the bible. I tried once when I was like 8. haha, didn't work. Maybe I'll try 'er again. |
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08-21-2007, 11:10 PM | #195 |
Socialphobic
Location: I DO C-C-C-COCAINE
Posts: 11,137
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this thread should have just been called TL;DR
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08-21-2007, 11:10 PM | #196 | |
Minion of Satan
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
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08-21-2007, 11:11 PM | #197 | |
Minion of Satan
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
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08-21-2007, 11:12 PM | #198 | |
Minion of Satan
Location: i'm a horrible human being
Posts: 9,141
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08-21-2007, 11:13 PM | #199 |
Minion of Satan
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
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Time for sleep -- I'll continue this tomorrow (if anyone is still up for it.)
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08-21-2007, 11:13 PM | #200 | |
****
Location: live free or die
Posts: 1,057
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In our universe, we have two things. Energy and mass (well thats one thing!) and the other thing, dimensions.. 3D space (height, length, and width) and time. Because we live in an existence in a place with time.. there must have been a beginning. Its like saying you could have numbers with no zero. God's universe however, may not have these same rules.. but i am not speculating like i have any idea what they could be. Just another theory. |
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08-21-2007, 11:18 PM | #201 |
****
Location: live free or die
Posts: 1,057
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i have enjoyed reading all of your posts.. best thread on netphoria in a while. Thanks for being civil.
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08-21-2007, 11:22 PM | #202 | |||
Minion of Satan
Posts: 8,799
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and evolution follows along the same path: do you just think the evidence is poor and thus dont accept its conclusion, or is it that you dont accept its conclusion whether or not the evidence is poor? if the latter, do you not accept the theory of evolution (in its entirety) exclusively for the reason that it contradicts creationism? if christianity made no claims here one way or the other, would you have any problem accepting evolution? |
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08-21-2007, 11:25 PM | #203 | |
Apocalyptic Poster
Location: IL
Posts: 3,559
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But maybe the human being's idea of logic is totally whack. Wouldn't that be fun? I remember reading a Dean Koontz book one time... called... uuuh... Seize the Night, I think. Yeah (I've read close to 40 of his books; they all start to run together after a while!). He basically proposed the idea that Heaven and Hell are just alternate universes coexisting with THIS universe, and something happens when we die that allows us to mosey on over to one of the other alternate universes. I'm pretty sure this isn't a new idea, actually... I think I remember hearing about it elsewhere. I don't personally believe this, but it's a nice thought. Like... maybe it's these universes that people describe when they die but get brought back (you know, the old woman on TV talking about the bright light and her dead cat on pearly stairs). People who accept that there are multiple universes probably thought this up. Just throwing it out there. Why not? Well, I was GOING to read Lord of the Rings again, but maybe I'll just have to go get a Bible from the library instead. hahahahhaa |
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08-21-2007, 11:27 PM | #204 | |
****
Location: live free or die
Posts: 1,057
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by variation within a species, i believe, he is referring to something else. not mutation at all, but that the genetic code was always there, just recessive traits and unique combinations of the same genetic material without any mutation to the actual DNA |
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08-21-2007, 11:29 PM | #205 | |
Minion of Satan
Posts: 8,799
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lets say the object of reading the bible is to discover its true meaning, whatever that is. (you agree, right?) in other words, if the one True interpretation of it was totally abysmal and made christianity into something really horrific, then so be it, thats what it is, yeah? so finding out what it is cant necessarily be guided by what seems right to us in 2007 (we cant err on the side of a positive interpretation solely because we are already assuming god is good and he would have chosen that). this is about honesty. an honest reading would take into account the thing as a whole -- the whole broad character and thrust of the book -- and wouldnt be selective, correct? |
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08-21-2007, 11:29 PM | #206 | |
Minion of Satan
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
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then the debate rages: once saved, always saved? meaning, if i "accept" Jesus, can I do whatever I want after that, or must I follow the morals/rules spelled out in the bible? |
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08-21-2007, 11:31 PM | #207 |
Apocalyptic Poster
Location: IL
Posts: 3,559
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as long as you confess, you're good!
Sadly, many believe this to be true... which I find preposterous. |
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08-21-2007, 11:33 PM | #208 | |
****
Location: live free or die
Posts: 1,057
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do libraries even have bibles these days? i am sure if you went to a local church and talked to the paster/minister/priest and told him that you honestly wanted a bible so that you could read it start to finnish, they would give you one. |
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08-21-2007, 11:38 PM | #209 |
Apocalyptic Poster
Location: IL
Posts: 3,559
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I'm sure I have one laying around the house, anyway. haha, I just meant because I would have gotten LOTR at the library (my Fellowship book has run away... it makes me sad ), so instead I'd just grab a bible.
I bet they'd have one... I wonder... *checks online* Well... uuuh... not sure if it's the actual bible. It's just called "The Bible," but I dunno. haha, the library is close to my house... I'll just go there anyway. If it's not there, I'll grab something else to feel like I accomplished something. |
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08-21-2007, 11:39 PM | #210 |
Minion of Satan
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
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i like the Picture Bible the best - the one that does the whole Bible as a graphic novel. Kick ass! (I'm serious - a bunch of Monks gave me one for my eighth birthday, uh, many years ago)
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