Christians and Pumpkins

[Aeroplane]

Back in the heydey of the Pumpkins (and I'm thinking specifically here MCIS era), I heard many a Christian tear into the Pumpkins, especially Billy, for their(his) lyrics. And even though I was already in college (unfortunately, a Christian one), my parents were doing everything to keep me from listening to their music because a "good" Christian friend opened their eyes to the music and words of The Smashing Pumpkins.

"Emptiness is loneliness . . . God is empty just like me."
"Jesus was an only son for you"
"I still believe that I cannot be saved"
"Love is suicide"
"God is as helpless as me"

Etc etc.

My parents feared that since I was already "unstable" (I was partying and being gloom and doom like any normal teenager, early 20s year old) that listening to such music would send me over the edge. It got so bad that just to get my parents (and my good, fellow Christian students - such hypocrites) off my back, I stopped listening for over a month.

I went through withdrawals. I couldn't study without the music. I got even more depressed. Finally, I broke down and listened to Starla. I was like a junkie getting his fix. And I've never looked back since.

What is it with Christians and rock 'n roll? But for me, specifically, what is it with religion and Pumpkins?

I was THIS close >< to becoming brainwashed. phew!

End of Story.

[redchandelier]

I get the whole christians agains rock thing, I don't agree with it, but I see where they are coming from. I think most of it is has a lot with closed/narrow mindedness, you know the whole if it's not christian then it must be evil. I think the decision not to listen to a specific type of music or do certain things should really come from inside the person and not from external forces trying to force or make you feel guilty about doing things........

[Deadeyes]

I guess you answered you're own question.

Pumpkins are hardly anti-christian at all, maybe the freedom of the lyrics could be resented, but im sure a whole collective religion does not harbour hate or dismay for one band. Then again I don't live in America, fuck knows about those crazies. Christians in purpose have to be shallow minded, and often adopt a narrow-minded view of any perception other than their own.

What a worthwhile subject...

[sammy khalifa]

Several of my friends are Christians and like the Pumpkins but I hear what you're saying. Obviously the lines you posted would be construed by most Christians as being wrong, but I look at them to some extent like I look at the Psalms. Writers of the Psalms didn't hold back when they were frustrated, angry or lacked faith in God.

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by Deadeyes

What a worthwhile subject...

I was basically rambling about what I remember of my experience with Pumpkins back in the day. I know it's a little miniscule compared to all the wonderful, major subjects you guys are discussing on this board.

Pumpkins aren't anti-christian. Taken out of context, a lot of their lyrics definitely appear that way, and that's how many people choose to judge others - with little snippets of information and without seeing the whole picture.

Anyway, I'm on a nostalgia kick recently.

[skipgo]

I'm a Christian and have always loved this band

Actually, there was talk on listessa about the lyrics relating to some stuff that Elie Wiesel had written, and so i checked out a book of his where he'd written about the "emptiness of God". If billy meant it in the same context as Wiesel, i believe that line to have been misinterpreted by many. Wiesel spoke of the lonlieness of God, as there was no one else who could relate to what being God was like. Or something like that. It's been a long time, I could be completely screwing that up; but that's what i remember of it. Emptiness is Lonlieness = God is empty just like me = God is lonley just like me.

anyway.

Yeah, I think it's stupid when Christians go after music. It usually amounts to nothing more than a bunch of holier than thou types trying to feel superior. I'm a Christian in my beliefs, but I don't like aligning myself with the hypocrasy that is rampant in the Church.

[redchandelier]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

that's how many people choose to judge others - with little snippets of information and without seeing the whole picture

right you are sir, couldn't have said it better myself.

[redchandelier]

Originally Posted by skipgo

I'm a Christian in my beliefs, but I don't like aligning myself with the hypocrasy that is rampant in the Church.

ditto!

[skipgo]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

that's how many people choose to judge others - with little snippets of information and without seeing the whole picture.

yes, unfortunately that covers pretty much everyone, not just christians. Not that you were implying that you're just talking about christians, but it just makes me think of the reasons that I'm a bit of a misanthrope. I don't trust or like most people, because so many of them are assholes, idiots, and narrowminded fools. And after stating that "i'm a christian", that last sentence probably sounds pretty off base. I wish I didn't feel that way about my fellow human beings, but i feel like i'm being stampeded by morons at every turn lately.

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by skipgo

yes, unfortunately that covers pretty much everyone, not just christians.

by no means am i saying that's just christians. i was raised surrounded by them and many, many are good people, including my family. however, many need to be reminded more than others that they are in fact just human and not better than others.

recently i was playing guitar while my mom was visiting my home (first time in years, actually) and she asked, "What is that song? It's beautiful." I responded, "To Sheila, by the Pumpkins." She gave me the strangest look and then I flat out said (12 years after her war against the band), "I think you misinterpreted the band. They're really good." She said, "Sounds like it."



Of course, I hid Z from her because it's shit.

[Deadeyes]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

I know it's a little miniscule compared to all the wonderful, major subjects you guys are discussing on this board.

Tell me about it.
Nostalgia is cool, but actual debate on the subject is pointless and exhausted. I just see the thread getting derailed into nonsense.

[Aeroplane]

Oh, but it's not. Keep reading. The Christians see the light!

[caroline]

I'm a Christian and have always lurved me some Punkins. With a lot of people, not just Christians, rock music automatically equals bad. With some people, if they don't understand it, it must be evil, yadda, yadda. As someone who studied literature in college, you have to understand where the writer is coming from in order to truly understand the prose or in this case song lyrics. SP2 is definitely Christian-friendly now.

[skipgo]

I have to say, I'm glad my parents (strict Christians though they were/are) never gave me any shit about the music i listened to. Except for one weird moment, where my mom shredded a Cure t-shirt after watching some PBS show that said the Cure were satanic (???!!), there was no real trouble over what i was listening to. I was never more surprised than the moment my mom popped her head into the room to tell me that, in spite of herself, she did enjoy the song i was listening to at the moment (which was Head Like a Hole). lol.
There was also the time she made me take down the RHCP infamous "sock poster", but i think that was more about not wanting her 15 year old to have (mostly) naked men on her wall.

This discussion reminded me of the time I was sent home from school (a public school, where we supposedly have separation of church and state) for wearing a Faith No More t-shirt. No offensive words or photos, just the name of the band. The principal approached me in the lunch line to send me home, because she didn't like what my shirt "implied". Jeez.

[Deadeyes]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

Oh, but it's not. Keep reading. The Christians see the light!

Well of course Christians on an SP board see the light...
What I mean is, the only arguments that can come of this are people bashing Christians or people defending Christians when the truth is some Christians are just more ridiculous than others (though base moral Christian stuff is fine, just all the rest of the bullshit). /thread barring nostalgia

[skipgo]

Originally Posted by Deadeyes

Well of course Christians on an SP board see the light...
What I mean is, the only arguments that can come of this are people bashing Christians or people defending Christians when the truth is some Christians are just more ridiculous than others (though base moral Christian stuff is fine, just all the rest of the bullshit). /thread barring nostalgia

this seems pretty much spot on. It'll likely turn into that as soon as more people log on and see this thread. So far so good, but by the time we hit page three, lookout!

[i_adore_adore]

I actually like discussing things like this. Over the years, I've sort of stopped being a Christian and have made up my own religion (some call this "spirituality." Call it what you wish). I don't like the idea of church... there are many things that people say the Christian God doesn't agree with, but I can't accept it. One thing is rock and roll.

I watched a documentary on the relationship between metal and Christianity on Vh1. It was very interesting. Basically, I have a problem with Christians' obsession with hating rock music and saying it's the Devil's music because they assume this without even trying to digest what the song is really about. They put no thought into it... they take everything said literally and don't take the time to search out a deeper meaning.

Saying that rock music is the Devil's music is like saying that all Americans are fat. While there are fat Americans, more fat Americans than, say, fat Asians, there are plenty of Americans in wonderful shape. The same goes for rock. While there are undeniably many bands that ARE Satanic (for example, all the neo-nazi rock bands), there are plenty of great rock bands that are misunderstood by hateful, simple-minded religious nuts.

I don't play certain parts of certain songs around my parents not because they're incredibly Christian (my father told me when I was quite young that religion is another way to control people, my mother shushed him... haha, funny how vivid my memory of that is), but because I'm worried that they may think I'm sinking into a hateful way of life by listening to lines like "God is empty just like me." And that's incredibly untrue. In fact, I've become a much less hateful person now that I've got the Pumpkins to get angry to... that's where I channel my agression. Before I would just bite someone's head off for no reason.

Anyway, I'm rambling...

[Anvil Hands]

Music has always hepled me to explore my spirtiual beliefs.

When i was young and i got a record player from my Grandmother i asked my dad if i could borrow some of his records to see which ones i liked. Strangely the first ones i picked were by the band YES. I think i was attracted to the crazy Artwork some of these things had on them.

But listening to these albums The Yes Album, Fragile, Colse to the Edge, Tales From Topographic Oceans, Relayer and Going for the One really had a huge impact on my life. I just never could relate to being in church and praying for my sins and confession and all of that. I always felt there was more to life that people didn't see or understand and here it was all laid out before me.

The Musicians in this band are some of the best there ever was , they could make
Huge symphonic masterpieces like Colse to the Edge as well as more simplistic catch tunes such as long Distance Runaround and I've seen all good people.

The thing that always struck me the Most was Jon Anderson. YHis lyrics may seem like cosmic jibberish at first but after really letting this stuff soak in i really was able to identify with what he was saying.

He doesn't belive in organized religion and plucks ideas from different religions cultures and books. And somnehow he manages to form this Alternate way of thinking that spirituality and God can exist without the rest of the baggage any organized religion has. Not to mention he has this very Angelic sort of Voice.

So for me the combination of this other worldly guy with this Huge Prog Rock Band playing their hearts out was the perfect fit for me.

this was some heady stuff for a sixth grader to wrap his head around. But i loved it and always have ever since.

I never really like Any other bands until i got into SP during High School. Basically i was out of the loop with most people my age and i was really searching for a band that was more relevant to other people my age. I ended up loving the Smashing Pumpkins. They Represented something very different. All the Angst and confusion of being young and trying to be somebody was all in there and i loved that too. I loved thier sound and theeir songs and i really felt they had this Proggy edge to some of the songs they did. Bill has a bit of a different take on Religion however.

[skipgo]

Originally Posted by Anvil Hands

Have any of you seen the Movie Jesus Camp ?

no sir, i have not

[ratking17]

In the 1980's extreme Christian groups led by Focus on the Family (though I can't disagree with every one of their principles), Jack Van Impe, etc...made a fortune selling these VHS 30-60 minute tapes to churches. Though Pastors/Priests, etc...never wanted to admit it, there was an unwritten feeling that by the year 2000 there was going to be the 2nd coming of Christ. These videos played off of those people's fears/expectations. Quite a few of these videos dealt with the subliminal messages of rock n roll music. Because these groups were so caught up with the idea of the anti-christ coming, they were especially concerned that Rock music was giving teenagers ideas on how to join the anti-christ. People that went to church or sunday school in the 1980's, I am sure, can remember these videos.

[Aeroplane]

Jesus Camp . . . welcome to my childhood.

[Anvil Hands]

Originally Posted by skipgo

no sir, i have not

It's a scary movie.

Harcore Christian families at summer church camp.

Complete with little kids crying in front of the congregation with their hands in the air asking Jesus to purge them of all their sins and evil.

Quite Compelling stuff.

[skipgo]

man am i glad my parents weren't such extremists!
i went to church/sunday school every week, but it was never anything as intense and scary as all of that.
I think that's a surefire way to turn someone AGAINST religion. With my daughter, I'm teaching her about what I believe, but I'm certainly not trying to make her afraid, and I'm letting her figure out who she is on her own terms. (even if that means liking hannah montana at the moment)
i was pretty lucky in the parent department. They were good, solid people who taught me to think for myself, while still teaching me about God. Now, they still have a way to go themselves, I'm trying to open up their minds about some things. Homosexuality, for instance, is a big thing. They're pretty homophobic, and I've done my best to get them to see this issue in a different light. Religion is such a complex issue, and yet so many people see it in black and white. I try not to do that.

[jimmy drevpile]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

"Jesus was an only son for you"

ain't that what Christians belive ?

[Anvil Hands]

I used to go to church every Sunday with my Mom.

My Dad never went to Chuch.

Eventually i got older and things just changed for me.

I think iw was still more of a postitive experience for me.

I wonder how i will teach all this stuff to my son.

Hes only 16 months so i have time to figure it all out. I guess he'll have to go too some sort of Sunday school. I went to Catholic schools growing up so i never had that experience. But my kids are going to Public school.

The Church is crazy strict where i live. i had a hard time getting my son baptized because my wife and i really don't go to church. So for six months i went and put my envelopes in the basket.

I gonna have to start going again when my wife gets pregnant so i'll have a head start on the whole thing.

[HorseflyKing]

http://www.my-mistake.net/infinitepics/art/art007.jpg

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by skipgo

man am i glad my parents weren't such extremists!
i went to church/sunday school every week, but it was never anything as intense and scary as all of that.
I think that's a surefire way to turn someone AGAINST religion. With my daughter, I'm teaching her about what I believe, but I'm certainly not trying to make her afraid, and I'm letting her figure out who she is on her own terms. (even if that means liking hannah montana at the moment)
i was pretty lucky in the parent department. They were good, solid people who taught me to think for myself, while still teaching me about God. Now, they still have a way to go themselves, I'm trying to open up their minds about some things. Homosexuality, for instance, is a big thing. They're pretty homophobic, and I've done my best to get them to see this issue in a different light. Religion is such a complex issue, and yet so many people see it in black and white. I try not to do that.

i like you.

my parents have come a loooooooooooong way. my mom simply admitting she liked a pumpkin song was huge. i came out to them when i was 18, and though it took a long way, they are pretty fine with it now. they're amazing people - they've grown and have allowed themselves to open up and think about what they believe in and why. that's all i can ask.

[andrewface]

fuck jesus

[i_adore_adore]

My parents are pretty good about letting me think what I want. Skipgo, we have the same issue! My parents are also homophobic and we've had argument upon argument about it. They're not thrilled about my opinions a lot of the time (I'm more liberal in my thinking, they're not), but they're getting used to the fact that I'm starting to think for myself.

luckily, my mom never made me go to church. I've gone a few times with friends, and every time has been an awkward, strange experience. It probably has a lot to do with the churches I went to (all of which seemed quite strict), but everyone who went there just seemed so utterly fake. People smile way too much at church, and they're never genuine.

Also, I'm not a big fan of the whole "scare the people into believing" way of teaching that I think some churches embrace. I don't believe there are any truly bad people in the world. Every nasty person I've met has a reason for being that way. (My parents respond to my way of thinking by saying "You're too young to understand," hahaha). I don't like the whole "If you don't follow the Christian way then you're going to Hell" thing, either. It's ridiculous.

The things people buy into to feel like they're a part of something...

[skipgo]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

i like you.

my parents have come a loooooooooooong way. my mom simply admitting she liked a pumpkin song was huge. i came out to them when i was 18, and though it took a long way, they are pretty fine with it now. they're amazing people - they've grown and have allowed themselves to open up and think about what they believe in and why. that's all i can ask.

wow, that had to be pretty difficult for you, considering how ultra religious your family is. I'm glad that they accepted you for who you are; In my mind, it would be unChristian NOT to accept someone who is gay. As far as i personally see things, God is about love, and not about condemnation. At least, that's what I get from it.

as open minded as my parents can be, if I were gay, I'm not sure I'd be able to tell them. for some reason, they really have a hard time with this. My nephew is gay, and my parents are still pretty upset about it.