Christians and Pumpkins

[i_adore_adore]

I played "Bullet" in the car with my buddy Phil, who goes to church a lot, and he said, "Is this a Christian rock band? They're good!"

Further proves my point that Christians take everything literally and don't listen to God-related verses in the context of the rest of the song.

(not all Christians, of course )

[Siva-Man]

I don't know what happens when we die. If anything, we return to where we came - non existence. Or we simply get recycled and come back. Who knows. But I don't believe in some alternate universe where we suffer for eternity because the five senses that "God" gaves us (sight, smell, touch, hear, taste) showed us He didn't exist. How can such a loving God ask us to believe in him when the very senses he gave us said he doens't exist, but then he expects us to use those same senses to get through life for everything else? It's not about doubt and faith - it's about the character of God and the contradictions that lie within it. God in the Bible is inconsistent - to me, that's a huge sign of man's inconsistencies in creating a God to believe in.

Yeah - I just see no reason to be optimistic about our post-death fates in a universe without a God. When we disprove God by pointing to the evil of the current world (if there's a God, why does he allow starvation, war, disease, etc.) why should expect the non-world to be any better? If anything, the legends of ghosts and spirits seem to indicate that the unnatural world is worse than the natural world.

The prospect of non-existence also brings me little comfort. It's one thing to rise from nothing, another thing to return to it. For something to come from nothing is a miracle. To return is a horror. Think about those last deathbed moments! How awful to be conscious as you are taken away from yourself. My beautiful memories, my dreams, my thoughts, my secrets - all crushed to nothing as if they never were. How would it feel like to have The Nothing take you back - to feel it re-digesting you into itself. Of course this would only last for moments - but what if they were like the event horizon of a black hole? Where at that precise moment of reabsorption into nothing, we stretch out for infinity - eternally existing on that precarious moment of drowning in non-existence. This is all just my imagination, but in a universe without God, who's to say it isn't true. If we prove that evil trumps God, then it has trumped everything and we can only expect astonishing horror.

I don't think this way anymore. But this all seemed very plausible at one point in my life.

[Aeroplane]

But you didn't really answer my question about the inconsistencies? It's not really a challenge - I just want to know how you've reconciled that. My parents used to say, "You just have to have faith." But I see it as, "You describe God a certain way, but turn around and contradict yourself." It's not about faith. So I'm curious how you address it.

[i_adore_adore]

Yeah - I just see no reason to be optimistic about our post-death fates in a universe without a God. When we disprove God by pointing to the evil of the current world (if there's a God, why does he allow starvation, war, disease, etc.) why should expect the non-world to be any better? If anything, the legends of ghosts and spirits seem to indicate that the unnatural world is worse than the natural world.

Well, since no one has any cold hard facts that prove what really happens to us when we die, I choose to be optimistic because it makes me happier. Simple as that.

Just like I choose to believe time travel is possible just because it's more fun to believe in it than not to. Obviously some people have a harder time just accepting that we'll never know the truth about "the other side" (if there is one) until it's too late to tell anyone about it, so they spend years of their lives contemplating the worst case scenarios (such as yourself, and I'm really sorry to hear it--sounds awful )

I, however, am just lazy enough to believe what I want and forget about the naysayers

I think the easiest way to deal with the matter of death and "what happens" is to say whatever the person truly believes will happen to them WILL happen to them. I honestly believe that. I think I'll go to Heaven, swim in pools of hot fudge, play Go Fish with Freddie Mercury and Johnny Cash, and chat about the '90s with God. Just because... why not? There is no absolute truth as far as I'm concerned, and life is much more enjoyable that way.

[Siva-Man]

Aeroplane, just curious, what specific inconsistencies did you find particularly hard to reconcile?

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

I agree somewhat. I never really mentioned the Bible - I mentioned the church in the middle ages and what Christians teach.

However, where do you think the Bible came from? Humans. Christians. It's not infallible. It wasn't until the Nicence Council in 300 AD that what is contained in the Bible was voted on to be *******d.

And guess what? It was at this same council that they VOTED to call Jesus the Son of God. Up until that point, they never officially acknowledged him as such. Technically, Jesus never claimed it.

So I go back to the inconsistencies. And there are in the Bible as well, but I don't want to get started.

Mark 14:61, 62 - "But he kept silent and made to reply at all. Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: 'Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?' Then Jesus said: 'I am; and you persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.'"

The Bible says of itself at 2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is inspired of God." True, the counsel of Nicea came to the conclusion which books were canonical and which books were not, but would it not stand to reason that if God wanted mankind to have a complete record of his dealings with humans, how he feels toward certain actions / reasonings, and what he plans to do for mankind, he would make sure that his Word remained in tact and available to all who sought it?

There's mountains of evidence of this inspiration; one in particular I find conclusive in and of itself is the way Biblical prophecies of the past have come to be fulfilled to the letter, with history testifying.

I can see from other posts of yours that you're not a Christian, but it sounds like you're one of the many who have become jaded toward Christendom's hypocrisy.

Rest assured that the way Christ taught is not what is being taught in most supposed Christian churches.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

I, however, am just lazy enough to believe what I want and forget about the naysayers

Ignorance does not come with the guarantee of bliss, Adore.

[i_adore_adore]

Until anyone can prove something to me, ignorance is what I'll have anyway. Might as well be blissful ignorance.

[Aeroplane]

It was still voted upon whether or not to believe and claim he was the son of God because even then there was doubt about the interpretations of the language and what was said at the time. But that can lead to many other areas of debate that won't be resolved.

Yes, I'm jaded against the hypocrisy, but not against Christians themselves. My family is still Christian. My sister, with whom I'm very close, I think is the model Christian. She's amazing. I simply do not believe the same thing. It's besides the point to me whether or not Jesus IS the Son of God, because I don't believe he's the ONLY way to God, whether or not he is at all. And by definition, that eliminates me from being called a Christian. And I know for myself, that Jesus is not a way to God for me (and what is God? - a whole other set of questions).

I am SO much more happier ever since I walked away from Christianity. Never have I loved myself more or felt freer to be myself and to love others as I see fit. I don't hold things against Christians or the chruch (I used to, and I worked through it), but I don't agree with them. Simple as that.

And no, I don't live in fear. At all.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

Until anyone can prove something to me, ignorance is what I'll have anyway. Might as well be blissful ignorance.

"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." - Hebrews 11:1

The apostle Paul here defines something that many have trouble with. Faith seems nonsensical to some because they cannot physically see God.

But for an example: one cannot see the wind. But one does see the "evident demonstration" of it upon the trees or on your skin. Thus, it is a reality, just as real as the trees that are swaying through that breeze.

Faith is similar to this -- a discerning man or woman sees evidence of God's existence in many things. They are absolutely sure that he is real and really cares based upon solid evidence.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

It was still voted upon whether or not to believe and claim he was the son of God because even then there was doubt about the interpretations of the language and what was said at the time. But that can lead to many other areas of debate that won't be resolved.

Yes, I'm jaded against the hypocrisy, but not against Christians themselves. My family is still Christian. My sister, with whom I'm very close, I think is the model Christian. She's amazing. I simply do not believe the same thing. It's besides the point to me whether or not Jesus IS the Son of God, because I don't believe he's the ONLY way to God, whether or not he is at all. And by definition, that eliminates me from being called a Christian. And I know for myself, that Jesus is not a way to God for me (and what is God? - a whole other set of questions).

I am SO much more happier ever since I walked away from Christianity. Never have I loved myself more or felt freer to be myself and to love others as I see fit. I don't hold things against Christians or the chruch (I used to, and I worked through it), but I don't agree with them. Simple as that.

And no, I don't live in fear. At all.

I respect that decision, because I know belief is such a personal matter. As long as you keep looking to answers for your questions and not surrendering to apathy, like so many in this world have, then more power to you. I hope you find those answers someday.

Personally, I've found them in the Bible. Just keep an open mind -- the Bible isn't as riddled with mysteries as some people would have you believe.

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." - Hebrews 11:1

The apostle Paul here defines something that many have trouble with. Faith seems nonsensical to some because they cannot physically see God.

But for an example: one cannot see the wind. But one does see the "evident demonstration" of it upon the trees or on your skin. Thus, it is a reality, just as real as the trees that are swaying through that breeze.

Faith is similar to this -- a discerning man or woman sees evidence of God's existence in many things. They are absolutely sure that he is real and really cares based upon solid evidence.

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

....the five senses that "God" gaves us (sight, smell, touch, hear, taste) showed us He didn't exist. How can such a loving God ask us to believe in him when the very senses he gave us said he doens't exist, but then he expects us to use those same senses to get through life for everything else? It's not about doubt and faith - it's about the character of God and the contradictions that lie within it. God in the Bible is inconsistent - to me, that's a huge sign of man's inconsistencies in creating a God to believe in.

I think it's a cruel joke to tell people to believe something that the very senses God gave them tells them otherwise. Paul was also inconsistent. And to say, "You may not see the wind doesn't mean it's not there. You can FEEL it." I've never felt God. It's not that simple. For those who struggle with "their faith" are made to feel horribly guilty when in fact, they're just relying on the very sound logic God gave them.

Again, not denying God - I just think that's a cruel joke.

[Siva-Man]

And no, I don't live in fear. At all.

I used to not live in fear. Then I started thinking about death and examining the world. The fear came then. Try it sometime. You might want to read a little Nietzsche too and watch a few Bergman films. They make a lot of sense.

I only recommend it because my fear led me to the truth. And the truth did set me free.

[null123]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

It's besides the point to me whether or not Jesus IS the Son of God, because I don't believe he's the ONLY way to God, whether or not he is at all.

but if he was the son of God, wouldn't you believe the things he said? amongst them being "no one comes to the father except through me"?

[i_adore_adore]

"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." - Hebrews 11:1

The apostle Paul here defines something that many have trouble with. Faith seems nonsensical to some because they cannot physically see God.

But for an example: one cannot see the wind. But one does see the "evident demonstration" of it upon the trees or on your skin. Thus, it is a reality, just as real as the trees that are swaying through that breeze.

Faith is similar to this -- a discerning man or woman sees evidence of God's existence in many things. They are absolutely sure that he is real and really cares based upon solid evidence.

But Christianity isn't the only religion that explains the existence of certain things. That's what I'm saying.

And science can explain the existence of certain things.

I'm not saying Christianity is WRONG, I'm saying that it simply cannot be the only concrete truth. It doesn't make sense to me that all other religions of the world are just wrong and that there is only one God, after all. THAT's what I'm trying to get at.

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

I respect that decision, because I know belief is such a personal matter. As long as you keep looking to answers for your questions and not surrendering to apathy, like so many in this world have, then more power to you. I hope you find those answers someday.

Personally, I've found them in the Bible. Just keep an open mind -- the Bible isn't as riddled with mysteries as some people would have you believe.

Thanks.

I know the Bible very well. Parents were missionaries. Went to a Christian college were I had to study it in depth for four years. There aren't any mysteries to me anymore in it. I'm not saying that in a derrogatory way - it's just, to me, apparent that this is not a book that resulted in "Divine Inspiration."

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by Siva-Man

I used to not live in fear. Then I started thinking about death and examining the world. The fear came then. Try it sometime. You might want to read a little Nietzsche too and watch a few Bergman films. They make a lot of sense.

I only recommend it because my fear led me to the truth. And the truth did set me free.

Done it.

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

but if he was the son of God, wouldn't you believe the things he said? amongst them being "no one comes to the father except through me"?

then God isn't the loving God his followers say he is. there is only ONE way to God? That eliminates an awful lot of people.

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

I'm not saying Christianity is WRONG, I'm saying that it simply cannot be the only concrete truth. It doesn't make sense to me that all other religions of the world are just wrong and that there is only one God, after all. THAT's what I'm trying to get at.

http://www.bahai.org/

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

I think it's a cruel joke to tell people to believe something that the very senses God gave them tells them otherwise. Paul was also inconsistent. And to say, "You may not see the wind doesn't mean it's not there. You can FEEL it." I've never felt God. It's not that simple. For those who struggle with "their faith" are made to feel horribly guilty when in fact, they're just relying on the very sound logic God gave them.

Again, not denying God - I just think that's a cruel joke.

It depends on how one looks at it. At the very least, almost all people from different backgrounds, cultures, languages have some sort of spiritual cognizance and thirst, although this may be satisfied in radically different ways. What I'm getting at is that we all have that need to search for answers beyond ourselves.

If I made you feel guilty for "not having faith," I apologize. I disagree with such an approach, because it's not a loving or kind thing to do.

Logic is very central to belief in God, actually. Another quote from Hebrews, this time 3:4: "Every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God."

[i_adore_adore]

http://www.bahai.org/

That actually kinda creeped me out.

I kinda like the idea of all the religions of the world being right for the people who believe in them. One God just seems so boring

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

But Christianity isn't the only religion that explains the existence of certain things. That's what I'm saying.

And science can explain the existence of certain things.

I'm not saying Christianity is WRONG, I'm saying that it simply cannot be the only concrete truth. It doesn't make sense to me that all other religions of the world are just wrong and that there is only one God, after all. THAT's what I'm trying to get at.

Matthew 7:13, 14 - "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."

[Aeroplane]

I like that they believe that all religions come from the same source, that it's one God who chooses to reveal her/himself to different people in different ways according to their culture and where they are. instead of saying, "either believe me one way or not at all."

[null123]

Christianity preaches that there is only one God and only one way to God. it cannot be integrated with other religions, though many try. so many people look for comfort instead of truth.

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

If I made you feel guilty for "not having faith," I apologize. I disagree with such an approach, because it's not a loving or kind thing to do.

I have nothing to feel guilty about! It's OK.

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

Christianity preaches that there is only one God and only one way to God. it cannot be integrated with other religions, though many try. so many people look for comfort instead of truth.

OK Angry Youth.

[i_adore_adore]

Matthew 7:13, 14 - "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."

My personal truth is based on Christianity, but modified into my own way of thinking. Perhaps you don't believe in it.

But does that mean that I can't believe that other people's truths are true for them? Does that mean that I have to assume all the other religions of the world--religions older than Christianity--are false? If so, then I think that's ridiculous.

I have faith in one thing, but that doesn't mean I can't accept other people's faiths as truth FOR THEM.

I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding or if I'm just doing a bad job at explaining what I mean.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

My personal truth is based on Christianity, but modified into my own way of thinking. Perhaps you don't believe in it.

But does that mean that I can't believe that other people's truths are true for them? Does that mean that I have to assume all the other religions of the world--religions older than Christianity--are false? If so, then I think that's ridiculous.

I have faith in one thing, but that doesn't mean I can't accept other people's faiths as truth FOR THEM.

I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding or if I'm just doing a bad job at explaining what I mean.

Jesus himself called his father "the only true God" numerous times. That statement implies that all other gods (and in turn, all other belief systems based upon these) are false. This is thoroughly born out in the history of Israel, when fighters against the false god Baal (and others) were defeated soundly by this only true God, Jehovah.

[i_adore_adore]

Jesus himself called his father "the only true God" numerous times. That statement implies that all other gods (and in turn, all other belief systems based upon these) are false. This is thoroughly born out in the history of Israel, when fighters against the false god Baal (and others) were defeated soundly by this only true God, Jehovah.

Then if you believe that, it is truth for you. Not for me.

Like I said, my faith is a modified Christianity. I REFUSE to accept that there is only one God, and the rest are false. Makes no sense to me.

MY God is the only God I think I'll ever meet, because He's the only one I truly believe in and have faith in... but that doesn't mean the rest don't exist to those who believe in them.

Relativism... that's what it's called, right? I had a similar discussion with a Christian friend of mine, and he told me I believe in religious relativism. Then told me I was wrong and he worries for my soul. I lol'd.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

Then if you believe that, it is truth for you. Not for me.

Like I said, my faith is a modified Christianity. I REFUSE to accept that there is only one God, and the rest are false. Makes no sense to me.

MY God is the only God I think I'll ever meet, because He's the only one I truly believe in and have faith in... but that doesn't mean the rest don't exist to those who believe in them.

Relativism... that's what it's called, right? I had a similar discussion with a Christian friend of mine, and he told me I believe in religious relativism. Then told me I was wrong and he worries for my soul. I lol'd.

Well then, I'll leave you to believe that. But just as I urged Aeroplane, don't close your mind off to any ideas. You still have many things to experience.