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Old 08-22-2007, 12:40 AM   #211
i_adore_adore
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I have like 50 million childrens bibles in my house. so fun... I used to read them like nuts.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 12:42 AM   #212
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are you equating my glorious graphic Bible to a children's Bible?!

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 12:43 AM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exactlythesame
In other words, we don't use other documents (such as the Apocrypha, or, say, the Book of Mormon or the Quran) to base our doctrines and beliefs off of. We do use and cite secular sources quite frequently, but we believe these back the Bible up. Science doesn't prove the Bible (we already believe it's true), science augments what's there already. Of course, there are varying theories within science that disagree with the Bible, and since we have a basis for our beliefs already, we simply reject these. Obviously a theory that we descended from aliens (or something odd like that) would not agree with what the Bible teaches about creation.

We are not merely automatons though, without a brain to think for ourselves.
ok well, hypothetically, if somehow there was irrefutable, incontrovertible evidence presented that contradicted something important in the bible, what would you believe? the bibles claim or the one supported beyond the shadow of a doubt by evidence?

fundamentally, thats the issue at play here, thats what i think this boils down to: either you respect evidence and reason or you dont. i think if you ignore them you signify that you are not being honest and pretty much preclude yourself from serious consideration (why argue if, regardless of what is said, you will always and forever go on believing what you do?). the point isnt that you have to reject christianity, its that you have to be fundamentally willing to if sufficient justification arises. without that fundamental willingness, you have no reason to really claim what you believe is true, because it is whether or not it is.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 12:46 AM   #214
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I find the idea of the cafeteria christian, which is displayed prominently in this thread, to be a bit suspect. Seems like in today's world people will just pick and choose from Christianity what they feel is right and then quietly reject from it what they believe is wrong. If people are going to have such a utilitarian approach to Christianity why not just simply be a utilitarian and throw out the pretext of Jesus and god? Because the idea of a christian god is incredibly ludicrous (as opposed to maybe a more metaphysical god rather than who has a face and personality and calls shots) as has been demonstrated by illustrating the fallacy of the earth being 6,000 years old or methusela living 900 years, it leads me to conclude that people still cherish these things because they associate it with their childhood, its what their parents ingrained int hem and that people feel guilty to turn their backs on those kidns of things. It seems thats where a lot of this humouring of christianity stems from.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 12:57 AM   #215
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dinosaurs

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:10 AM   #216
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they lived with man . . . AT THE SAME TIME!

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:10 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by sleeper
so i could hypothetically love god and love my neighbour and totally disbelieve in everything else and be a christian? i actually think this is more or less true (i do think that belief in a small number of key things is enough to make someone a christian in principle) but i dont really think that you cant make any disctinction amongst christians beyond this point.
i'm not sure what "everything else" you're talking about




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Originally Posted by sleeper
but apart from evolution for a moment, how old is the world? (i want to use this one issue as a way of getting at more fundemantal principles, so bear with me). is your belief "i dont know" or are you leaning strongly in one direction? do you think 6,000? because thats totally unsupported by evidence. the evidence supports the conclusion that the universe is around 14 point something billion years old and the earth 4.5 billion. now, do you acknowledge that evidence and reason are the final arbiters here of the age of the earth (and other objective claims), but think the evidence is poor/wrong/whatever? or do you think that evidence doesnt really matter, and that its superceded by what the bible says? if so, why is it alright for the bible to be in contradiciton to reality? or, rather, why is it alright for reality to be in contridicition to the bible, given that its the from god? i mean, something has to give here, and its not reality.

and evolution follows along the same path: do you just think the evidence is poor and thus dont accept its conclusion, or is it that you dont accept its conclusion whether or not the evidence is poor? if the latter, do you not accept the theory of evolution (in its entirety) exclusively for the reason that it contradicts creationism? if christianity made no claims here one way or the other, would you have any problem accepting evolution?
i guess i lean more towards 6,000 because that is supported by what the bible says but honestly, i don't know. i will say i don't know everything about what goes into proving evolution but from what i have studied there seems to be many flaws. (i.e. big bang, all the matter condenses, spins around, explodes, planets, stars etc. formed...first off like you stated before where did the matter, energy, etc. come from but lets just say that it happened and it was spinning clockwise (jsut to clarify a direction for the arguments sake), conservation of angular momentum states then that all the planets, etc. should be spinning the same way (clockwise for sake of argument) so why then do uranus and venus spin backwards? again i admit that i don't know the most about evolution but i do believe it takes more faith to believe that everything just happened by chance than to believe there was a creator.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:19 AM   #218
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I see we've gotten back to saying interesting things, but I'd just like to confirm that I have no real bibles in my house except the New Testament... I'll probably borrow one from my friend.

Quote:
I find the idea of the cafeteria christian, which is displayed prominently in this thread, to be a bit suspect. Seems like in today's world people will just pick and choose from Christianity what they feel is right and then quietly reject from it what they believe is wrong. If people are going to have such a utilitarian approach to Christianity why not just simply be a utilitarian and throw out the pretext of Jesus and god? Because the idea of a christian god is incredibly ludicrous (as opposed to maybe a more metaphysical god rather than who has a face and personality and calls shots) as has been demonstrated by illustrating the fallacy of the earth being 6,000 years old or methusela living 900 years, it leads me to conclude that people still cherish these things because they associate it with their childhood, its what their parents ingrained int hem and that people feel guilty to turn their backs on those kidns of things. It seems thats where a lot of this humouring of christianity stems from.
I actually believe you're right. I WAS raised a Christian, so while I'm beginning to question certain aspects of Christianity as I currently understand it (which, I admit, isn't completely), I cannot throw aside the idea of Jesus dying on the cross for my sins and all that.

I don't really know how to explain it, if there's any way to... it's just the way some people are, I suppose.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:22 AM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSP552003
i'm not sure what "everything else" you're talking about






i guess i lean more towards 6,000 because that is supported by what the bible says but honestly, i don't know. i will say i don't know everything about what goes into proving evolution but from what i have studied there seems to be many flaws. (i.e. big bang, all the matter condenses, spins around, explodes, planets, stars etc. formed...first off like you stated before where did the matter, energy, etc. come from but lets just say that it happened and it was spinning clockwise (jsut to clarify a direction for the arguments sake), conservation of angular momentum states then that all the planets, etc. should be spinning the same way (clockwise for sake of argument) so why then do uranus and venus spin backwards? again i admit that i don't know the most about evolution but i do believe it takes more faith to believe that everything just happened by chance than to believe there was a creator.
ban.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:22 AM   #220
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my God is an awesome God.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:23 AM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mablak
ban.
wow what for?

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:24 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSP552003
conservation of angular momentum states then that all the planets, etc. should be spinning the same way (clockwise for sake of argument) so why then do uranus and venus spin backwards?

eh.. i dont know if this argument holds much water. Angular momentum must be conserved always with our current understanding of physics (even in nuclear reactions, hence neutrinos and anti-neutrinos). But something on the order of a big bang would be far to large and complex to use our solar system as a representative sample of what the rest of the universe is doing.

Angular momentum could be conserved, if somewhere else in the universe a planet with twice the mass is spinning in the opposite direction.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:25 AM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waltermcphilp
my God is an awesome God.
He reigns, from heaven above,
with wisdom
power
and love

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:26 AM   #224
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JSP552003 you must have watched that 2 hr video where the preacher basically dismantles evolution with some interesting facts and science know how.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:28 AM   #225
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Please, ignore all these people... pleeeeaaase. This is like my favorite netphoria thread.

There are many flaws in evolution as far as I can tell (though I'm no expert, either... science is my weakest subject by far. My brain doesn't like thinking "logically," I guess ) but there are many flaws in everything as far as I can tell. Just from reading this thread it's been reinforced that however concrete you THINK your beliefs are, they can almost always be countered by someone else. Just because nothing is really, 100% proven about how we GOT here, and isn't that what this is sorta all coming to be about? Who/what made the universe? What caused all of this to happen?

While I find it infinitely fascinating to read everyone's points on this (because I admit that you all seem to know a heckofalot more about this than I do), I don't think that once this thread dies off (or gets closed) I'll be any closer to the absolute truth.

Because, like I said, I don't think there really IS an absolute truth...

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:30 AM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
eh.. i dont know if this argument holds much water. Angular momentum must be conserved always with our current understanding of physics (even in nuclear reactions, hence neutrinos and anti-neutrinos). But something on the order of a big bang would be far to large and complex to use our solar system as a representative sample of what the rest of the universe is doing.

Angular momentum could be conserved, if somewhere else in the universe a planet with twice the mass is spinning in the opposite direction.
exactly. AND everything would have to continue to exist in a void for nothing to disturb its behaviour. but it doesn't. black holes, red stars, solar wind, meteors could definitely affect a planet's life.

Also, there's dark matter which makes up a majority of this universe, and we still have no idea what it is or what it can do or what its purpose is. (just throwing that out there)

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:30 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
eh.. i dont know if this argument holds much water. Angular momentum must be conserved always with our current understanding of physics (even in nuclear reactions, hence neutrinos and anti-neutrinos). But something on the order of a big bang would be far to large and complex to use our solar system as a representative sample of what the rest of the universe is doing.

Angular momentum could be conserved, if somewhere else in the universe a planet with twice the mass is spinning in the opposite direction.

i can see your point and you may very well be right. i just found it interesting.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:31 AM   #228
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the truth is out there....

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:31 AM   #229
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Hey... so do you Christians believe in aliens? Heck, do you non-Christians believe in aliens? Not in the little-green-guy, Men In Black sort of way... just intelligent life on other planets.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:33 AM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

Because, like I said, I don't think there really IS an absolute truth...
One of the hardest things my parents had in dealing with me deciding not to be a Christian was my decision that there were no absolute truths. I think it's illogical. They were really upset.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:34 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i_adore_adore
I don't think that once this thread dies off (or gets closed) I'll be any closer to the absolute truth...
Like i said.. ill never try to force my believes on anyone.. but i hope you find it for yourself, for your own reasons. Once you do, you might know why i like it so much.



Quote:
Originally Posted by i_adore_adore
Because, like I said, I don't think there really IS an absolute truth...
i think there is, and i think its god. I figured it out for myself with science.. maybe you will find it another way some day!

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:34 AM   #232
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My sister in particular can't accept my whole "The only real truth is that there is no real truth" way of thinking. For some reason she is obsessed with seeing things in black and white--all things. It's quite an annoying quality, for it makes for boring conversation.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:35 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by i_adore_adore
Hey... so do you Christians believe in aliens? Heck, do you non-Christians believe in aliens? Not in the little-green-guy, Men In Black sort of way... just intelligent life on other planets.
yes. i think it's very egotistical to think we're the only ones, and also a bit illogical.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:35 AM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waltermcphilp
JSP552003 you must have watched that 2 hr video where the preacher basically dismantles evolution with some interesting facts and science know how.

haha yeah i have. he brought up some great points actually but i don't agree with everything he said. something i've always believed is that you have to look at everything from different perspectives. his debates are more interesting though because he actually has people arguing for evolution.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:36 AM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i_adore_adore
My brain doesn't like thinking "logically," I guess
thats ok. The world needs people who think artistically as well (and other ways too). Without them, there would be no billy, no pumpkins.. no netphoria, and this very thread would have never existed.

WHOA!!!

MINDFUCK!!

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:36 AM   #236
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i think there is, and i think its god. I figured it out for myself with science.. maybe you will find it another way some day!
Yes, but WHY the Christian God? Don't you think, as someone has already mentioned, that if you were raised in the Middle East you would be a Muslim trying to teach me the glory of your religion?

I'm not saying that all religions are wrong, no no no. I'm saying I don't think I'll EVER understand how someone can accept that only ONE is right. In this whole big world of religion, why is it that Christianity can be the only Truth? Especially when religions are all soooo similar.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:37 AM   #237
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yes. i think it's very egotistical to think we're the only ones, and also a bit illogical.
I agree whooooleheartedly.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:40 AM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSP552003
haha yeah i have. he brought up some great points actually but i don't agree with everything he said. something i've always believed is that you have to look at everything from different perspectives. his debates are more interesting though because he actually has people arguing for evolution.
my favorite part had to have been when they explained index fossils.

"how can you tell how old the rock is?"
"we can tell how old the rock is by what fossil is in it"
"how can you tell how old the fossil is?"
"we can tell how old the fossil is by what rock it is in"

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:42 AM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroplane
from what I was raised to believe, to be a christian, you must "accept Jesus into your heart," claim that he is the son of god, that he died for your sins and was raised again and saved you from eternal damnation, and that there is no other way to this salvation except through the blood of Jesus. All else are false gods.

once saved, always saved
not that anyone actually listens to me anymore in these types of threads, but this is pretty much what i believe. all the petty stuff and added traditions, etc, just get in the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeroplane
meaning, if i "accept" Jesus, can I do whatever I want after that
i believe that it's not a free for all so much as, if you're deliberately sinning and doing something wrong. that is suspect, y'know? but there is a difference between this and messing up and being truly sorry about it and trying harder.

also, the bottom line always has to be that i try hard not to come off as judgemental, rather explaining what i believe when asked.

 
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:44 AM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroplane
Also, there's dark matter which makes up a majority of this universe, and we still have no idea what it is or what it can do or what its purpose is. (just throwing that out there)

meh.. breaks down like this

mater -> atoms
atoms -> electrons, protons and neutrons
those things -> quarks
quarks -> no body knows. Strings? (string theory.. no hard evidence)
strings -> fucked if i know
fucked if i know -> ???
etc
etc
etc
finally.. little tiny bundles of pure energy.


Tiny little bundles of pure energy? from where? WTF??

dont even get me started on gravitons.

 
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