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Old 08-08-2018, 08:50 PM   #1
fuzzyroes
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Default Will Smashing Pumpkins be able to sustain this resurgence?

Billy and the band have accomplished quite the impressive and improbable comeback. They've returned to venues of a size that they haven't be able to play in over 20 years. It can't be seen as anything but a massive success.

The question is, can Billy parlay this resurgence in a way that people support the new music, or will it be strictly a nostalgia act going forward? If it is going to be a nostalgia act, a lot of these acts don't have big success when returning to markets a second time (for example STP, Journey, Motley Crue ETC). So will they inevitably fizzle out once people tick it off their proverbial "concert bucket list"?

Is this just a last bang before the flame out or a new beginning?

 
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Old 08-08-2018, 08:58 PM   #2
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probably they will release new music to little fanfare, do more touring, and die out

 
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Old 08-08-2018, 09:15 PM   #3
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It’s really not a comeback. It’s just a random tour. A true comeback would be having a hit single and hit album neither of which are probable for the band ever again.

 
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Old 08-21-2018, 02:52 PM   #4
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Itís really not a comeback. Itís just a random tour. A true comeback would be having a hit single and hit album neither of which are probable for the band ever again.
I've head Solara on the radio in the last few months more than all of their other songs combined in the last few years. Not sure if that's an indicator of success, but it seems popular.

 
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Old 08-08-2018, 09:46 PM   #5
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ehhh... It was a band fizzling out and not even doing well in mid sized theaters and now they're selling out or playing very well attended shows at some of the most prestigious arenas in America.

It's definitely a resurgence, if not a comeback.

 
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Old 08-08-2018, 09:50 PM   #6
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It's a fair question.

I see people post pictures at concerts with captions that go something like "90s nostalgia" at all of these concerts. Now, there is nothing wrong with that per se. However, I doubt if I was to look at instagram for a Pearl Jam concert that there would be many of those captions.

There are probably dozens of bands that can get 10,000 people at a concert no problem without ever releasing a new song because it becomes pretty much a celebration concert that fans have no problem going to every year. One big example of this is Jimmy Buffet. I don't think the Pumpkins are that type of band.

I do think that positive fan experience at concerts will help the band going forward from a perception standpoint. But if they want to return to arenas on a consistent basis, they are going to need some newer songs with extended airplay. It doesn't have to be number 1 hits. Just songs that are good enough to be in rotation that can keep their name fresh.

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 12:42 AM   #7
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Sure, if they are willing to continue cashing in on various forms of nostalgia. For instance, I'm sure they could co-headline festivals if they were playing Siamese Dream in its entirety, or they could put together some Roger Waters-like massive MCIS show. There are also other iterations of the current show they could put on, not to mention bring it to 20-30 cities not included on this tour.

I don't know if any of that is guaranteed to work, but there are real opportunities to sustain this kind of momentum. Nostalgia. Mostalgia?

Edit: and they could absolutely tour with a band like Pearl Jam. Lol.

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:47 AM   #8
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This band is completely irrelevant besides the odd greatest hits tour

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:20 AM   #9
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There’s enough material in the archive for Billy to put out a big release ever year. The live variants from the various phases of the band ie. the metro/united centre shows, arising, djali zwan, glasshouse, another big MCIS show, Storytellers, the remaining reissues: machina, the canned projects, Zwan box set, chicago songs, remastered zeitgeist, live zeigeist cd, demo collections, new greatest hits. Master each with the quality of Inside the Dark Globe with decent artwork and they would review well with critics and keep the status of the band going, while he can drop his new music every couple of years.

I don’t get why he isn’t doing this.

Oh yeah, because they don’t sell enough to meet his dumb standards.

Last edited by Woody : 08-09-2018 at 06:25 AM.

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 07:48 AM   #10
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I'm not sure if they could do another big arena run by themselves again (although the overall good reviews might not necessarily rule it out), but I don't think they necessarily need to have another hit single or album to keep the momentum. Counting Crows have not had a hit for well over 10 years, yet they simply pair up with another band of the time (Live, Matchbox Twenty), and are able to do arenas and amphitheaters. I think when Billy talks about "rebuilding the brand", he means bringing the Smashing Pumpkins up to that level where they may not be topping the charts (which very few rocks bands are doing, unless you count Imagine Dragons), but if they can consistently put on crowd-pleasing shows without drama, fans will keep coming.

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:28 AM   #11
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Can they continue with this resurgence? The answer in my mind is simple. Only if they put out good new music. And I think it would have to be something really special to be able to consider them having made a ‘comeback’

And when I mean special I mean up there with their 90’s stuff. And on a level much higher then Solara.

Otherwise this will pass but they will continue to have loyalty from their hardcore fanbase as always. I myself am a Pumpkins fan for life and will listen to anything he puts out forever and there are quite a few like me - but a comeback? That will need very high level new music.

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:00 AM   #12
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you guys should try checking out some other bands. like boris, for example.

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:15 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
you guys should try checking out some other bands.
great advice


This is neither a resurgence nor a comeback except perhaps for Corgan's bank account.

Otherwise the band is no more relevant than they were in 2010. We have just one new song coinciding with this tour recorded with Rick Brick Dick Rubin, that song blows, and there's no sign on the horizon at all for a release of the rest of the alleged music. Where is it? It doesn't exist and has not been recorded.

But hey, they have some weirdos in hoods carrying out a Corganchrist statue during a cover of Stairway to Heaven and Mark McGrath and prerecorded vocals and redneck Curtney Loaf and that rap rock guy singing bodies. If that's not a comeback I dont know what is.

edit: encore should have McGrath singing Tonight, Tonight with Corgan slinking around on stage shooting cake out of a bazooka and instead of Solara let Courtney recite poetry from Blinking with Fists before the Dumbo song to close the set. That would be great. Much better than say, I dont know, Geek USA --> Jellybelly --> Aeroplane flies High

Last edited by artvase : 08-09-2018 at 11:25 AM.

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:39 AM   #14
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No.

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:08 PM   #15
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If history is any indicator: no. Billy will ruin it by saying and doing horrible stupid shit.

I do think, however, that SP will be remembered as having made one of the most significant contributions to 20th century western popular music of any person, group, or artist. As far as that goes, their legacy is safe and there is nothing that can be done to blemish it.

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:25 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by johncg View Post
If history is any indicator: no. Billy will ruin it by saying and doing horrible stupid shit.

I do think, however, that SP will be remembered as having made one of the most significant contributions to 20th century western popular music of any person, group, or artist. As far as that goes, their legacy is safe and there is nothing that can be done to blemish it.
Of any person, group, or artist? Nah. Beatles, Bob Dylan, Pink Floyd, Zeppelin, Hendrix, Sabbath etc. all trump SP easily. SP will be remembered for Siamese Dream, it's usually the only album of theirs that places on those critic top 100 albums list.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:07 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by houseofglass11 View Post
Of any person, group, or artist? Nah. Beatles, Bob Dylan, Pink Floyd, Zeppelin, Hendrix, Sabbath etc. all trump SP easily. SP will be remembered for Siamese Dream, it's usually the only album of theirs that places on those critic top 100 albums list.
I honestly disagree. I think the prolificacy, innovation, and consistency of high-quality music created by SP between 1991-1996 easily rivals any of the most significant bodies of work created in 20th century western popular music.

Iím not talking about mainstream staying power and influence. The artists you mentioned all trump SP on that level. Iím talking about the amount of work that was produced that is likely to be remembered as both singular and definitive of a time-period or movement as a whole.

Iím looking back at the different eras of jazz, blues, and western classical music for an indication of what works are remembered. Those who study music seriously tend to focus on those pieces and style movements which are most rich and prolific in innovation. It has nothing to do with how cool the artist was at the time or who had the best career. It just comes down the music.

Iím looking at it like this:

The Beatles are widely accepted by music scholars (and just about everyone) as the pinnacle of western popular music in this era. They released just over 200 songs in 8 years.

SP from Ď91-Ď96 released about 100 songs most of which were fairly brilliant. That puts them almost on pace with the Fab Four in terms of quantity of music divided by years. When you subtract the 30 or so covers recorded by the Beatles, the two are almost dead even.

Led Zeppelin by contrast released about 90 songs in 11 years. Nirvana only released like three albums total. Hendrix released about 3-4 albums. The only other musical movement I can think of that comes close to rivaling SP or the Beatles is Motown. And there we have several songwriters and a lot of filler songs so itís not a fair comparison perhaps.

I totally hate on Billy by the way. I think he has very problematic personality traits and that his post-Ď96 work is mostly unremarkable. I also think...again from the perspective of a music historian or musicologist...that he takes way too much credit for the output of SP at its peak. Butch Vig, Flood, Alan Moulder, and the original SP lineup (which was never functionally intact again after 1996) all deserve a lot of credit for creating the work as well. Look no further for evidence of this than the fact that just about nothing Billy has done post-Ď96 compares to his work during the 91-96 time period.

But hate on the man all you want, the work speaks for itself. Itís mind blowing how many different styles SP seamlessly blended together into a unique voice and how many great songs they released in so little time. Most great artists in popular music have one innovative sound and maybe a handful of great songs. SP had several stylistic innovations and DOZENS of great songs.

Fight me.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:08 AM   #18
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Iím looking back at the different eras of jazz, blues, and western classical music for an indication of what works are remembered.
the difference is those were eras of music that lead to change
grunge and then alternative led to nothing. at the time there was the dream and hope that with/through this 'new music' things would change. but in hindsight they didn't. The only thing that's changed was the internet and that had NOTHING to do with the music of that era. So realistically, with the era being insignificant, so are it's contributors. sorry. grunge and alternative are the footnote.


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Pumpkins had several stylistic innovations
what did they invent?
loud quiet?
used strings in a slow song?
had a weirdo frontman?
used electronic elements in rock?
had a shaved head?

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:20 PM   #19
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what did they invent?
loud quiet?
used strings in a slow song?
had a weirdo frontman?
used electronic elements in rock?
had a shaved head?
The Pumpkins signature Siamese Dream wall of guitars think has never been done before or since.

“Geek USA” blends progressive rock song forms, shoegaze guitar sounds, metal riffs and lead guitar playing, a dream-pop song vignette, and a self-conscious/self-effacing.
indie rock aesthetic. That I see as very innovative as it was something without precedent at the time and which no one else I’m aware of has done since.

So that’s two concrete examples of innovations credited to SP in pop music.

If I’m wrong, let me know. But please use an argument based on evidence, not just a baseless attack. Explain to me where the Siamese Dream guitar sound has been used before or since. Or explain how those stylistic elements are either not present on “Geek USA” or were innovated pre-SP.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:41 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johncg View Post
I honestly disagree. I think the prolificacy, innovation, and consistency of high-quality music created by SP between 1991-1996 easily rivals any of the most significant bodies of work created in 20th century western popular music.

Iím not talking about mainstream staying power and influence. The artists you mentioned all trump SP on that level. Iím talking about the amount of work that was produced that is likely to be remembered as both singular and definitive of a time-period or movement as a whole.

Iím looking back at the different eras of jazz, blues, and western classical music for an indication of what works are remembered. Those who study music seriously tend to focus on those pieces and style movements which are most rich and prolific in innovation. It has nothing to do with how cool the artist was at the time or who had the best career. It just comes down the music.

Iím looking at it like this:

The Beatles are widely accepted by music scholars (and just about everyone) as the pinnacle of western popular music in this era. They released just over 200 songs in 8 years.

SP from Ď91-Ď96 released about 100 songs most of which were fairly brilliant. That puts them almost on pace with the Fab Four in terms of quantity of music divided by years. When you subtract the 30 or so covers recorded by the Beatles, the two are almost dead even.

Led Zeppelin by contrast released about 90 songs in 11 years. Nirvana only released like three albums total. Hendrix released about 3-4 albums. The only other musical movement I can think of that comes close to rivaling SP or the Beatles is Motown. And there we have several songwriters and a lot of filler songs so itís not a fair comparison perhaps.

I totally hate on Billy by the way. I think he has very problematic personality traits and that his post-Ď96 work is mostly unremarkable. I also think...again from the perspective of a music historian or musicologist...that he takes way too much credit for the output of SP at its peak. Butch Vig, Flood, Alan Moulder, and the original SP lineup (which was never functionally intact again after 1996) all deserve a lot of credit for creating the work as well. Look no further for evidence of this than the fact that just about nothing Billy has done post-Ď96 compares to his work during the 91-96 time period.

But hate on the man all you want, the work speaks for itself. Itís mind blowing how many different styles SP seamlessly blended together into a unique voice and how many great songs they released in so little time. Most great artists in popular music have one innovative sound and maybe a handful of great songs. SP had several stylistic innovations and DOZENS of great songs.

Fight me.
LOL this might be the most absurd post made on this board ever.

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:11 PM   #21
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I'd say the perfunctory Motown dismissal alone puts it in the pantheon

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:46 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johncg View Post
I do think, however, that SP will be remembered as having made one of the most significant contributions to 20th century western popular music of any person, group, or artist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by johncg View Post
I honestly disagree. I think the prolificacy, innovation, and consistency of high-quality music created by SP between 1991-1996 easily rivals any of the most significant bodies of work created in 20th century western popular music.


Fight me.
no need to fight you, you are simply completely wrong. either you know next to no music of the 20th century, or you have absolutely no clue whatsoever about "western popular music" outside of North America, or both.

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:40 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johncg View Post

I do think, however, that SP will be remembered as having made one of the most significant contributions to 20th century western popular music of any person, group, or artist. As far as that goes, their legacy is safe and there is nothing that can be done to blemish it.
you mean in North America, right

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 07:37 PM   #24
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I do think, however, that SP will be remembered as having made one of the most significant contributions to 20th century western popular music of any person, group, or artist. As far as that goes, their legacy is safe and there is nothing that can be done to blemish it.
dude what

 
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:12 AM   #25
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dude what
Calm your tatas!

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:51 PM   #26
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They could tour with Bjork

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:10 PM   #27
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They could tour with Bjork
Respect BjŲrk enough to put the umlaut in her name you fucking asshole!

Asshole!

Also I feel like an awful lot of bad things in Billy's life and attitude would improve if he let BjŲrk be his guru for a year

"I'm no fucking Buddhist, but this is enlightenment," he might say

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:54 PM   #28
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I'm more interested in the amount of time 'til someone finally kicks Billy in the bollies or whatever such action necessary to get the guy to put out something good again

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:58 PM   #29
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Boris are shit.

 
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:01 PM   #30
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The fact that they have a completed album in the can that the record company won't release until after the tour speaks volumes.

 
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