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Old 02-07-2002, 01:37 AM   #1
Raskolnikov
 
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Post So what's exactly wrong with Machina's production?

Hmm... not sure if this is the right board for this or not, but it'll work.

People 'round here always rip on the production of Machina and attribute it as one of the main reasons why they dislike the album. Now I'm no genius on the matter, but I don't think it's bad by any means.

I listened to it today, and the only thing I could come up with is that perhaps it's too polished. Is that the complaint? If so, the greater majority of Siamese Dream is polished down just as shiny- but then again, I'm no genius on the subject.

Fill me in?


 
Old 02-07-2002, 01:43 AM   #2
Smack Me In My Mouth
 
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I think a lot of people are turned off by the "washed-out" feel of the tracks. When I listen to it, the only distinct instrument I hear are the drums--the guitar and bass parts kind of fade together into an indistinct blur.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 02:27 AM   #3
Finsta
 
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Yeah, and the whole GATMOG thing was gay.


 
Old 02-07-2002, 03:49 AM   #4
Jesse Miller
 
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Machina is also pretty digital; it sounds cold and dead.

------------------
Jesse: Dude, did you fart? It smells like poo...
Mason: Yes, I did fart... *and* I smell like poo.
Jesse: Oh, good. I was hoping it wasn't this couch.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 03:55 AM   #5
elitist prick
 
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Personally I dig Machina but that's probably because the production on it is nothing like the other cd's I own. Perhaps it's not the greatest, but I think it must be recognized that experimental music is important to a band's growth; although in this case since it was the end of the band, it must be said that it had more of an impact on the individual artists in the band.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 03:55 AM   #6
if there is a llama
 
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I think that alot of peoples complaints about the production of Machina (and Adore for that matter) were done intentionally by the band. I don't think anyone can really say that a band suddenly puts out poorly produced albums after such great production as Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie.

David

 
Old 02-07-2002, 03:56 AM   #7
if there is a llama
 
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Oh yeah, wrong board!

David

 
Old 02-07-2002, 04:50 AM   #8
Fathoms (unadored)
 
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In my opinion Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie were more poorly produced than Machina. But Machina sounds very droned, fuzzy and muddled on my discman which seriously pissed off. It takes a decent sound system to hear the decent sound. It's production lends itself to some great hidden rythms and gorgeous soundscapes. But overall It's too calculated, and muddled at times. It really takes a good sound system and a careful ear to enjoy Machina for what it is. Which says something about the production.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 05:37 AM   #9
The Maverick
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fathoms (unadored):
In my opinion Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie were more poorly produced than Machina. But Machina sounds very droned, fuzzy and muddled on my discman which seriously pissed off. It takes a decent sound system to hear the decent sound. It's production lends itself to some great hidden rythms and gorgeous soundscapes. But overall It's too calculated, and muddled at times. It really takes a good sound system and a careful ear to enjoy Machina for what it is. Which says something about the production.
i'm going to with-hold my opinion on MACHINA wich is irrelevant anyway.
but i have a (more than) decent stereo system and it still sounds muddled and fuzzy at times. maybe it was done intentionally, but it just doesn't sound... quite right (for lack of a better word)

j o e


------------------
::stumbles in drunkenly::
Hey everybody, where did Mary go?
Where did Mary go?
And where's my only cigarette? Please think for me, I can't bear to...
I'll just lie here for a while, Wet myself, wet my bed-- I've readied it all for her, you know Clean sheets, incense, and lots of fluffy pillows-- Now soiled....
And where's my cigarette? Did you check the bathroom?... The bathtub?... She sleeps there sometimes.... Water cleanses, you know, washes dirt away, makes new.... Maybe she... maybe she... maybe she... maybe... Maybe she swam away....
::exits drunkenly::

 
Old 02-07-2002, 05:39 AM   #10
strange_one
 
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sacred and profane always sounds too fuzzy no matter what system I listen to it on

------------------
http://www.lilli.clara.net/freesaver/thumbs/iron.jpg
Your Time Will Come

 
Old 02-07-2002, 05:59 AM   #11
nevermind
 
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if only we could have heard machina just the way it was in the studio. ahhhhh...

 
Old 02-07-2002, 07:17 AM   #12
THRILLHO
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by if there is a llama:
I think that alot of peoples complaints about the production of Machina (and Adore for that matter) were done intentionally by the band. I don't think anyone can really say that a band suddenly puts out poorly produced albums after such great production as Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie.

David
why not? of course that could happen.

another thing i've noticed that seperates machina from the other albums (except maybe adore): most of the songs don't progress sonically. a lot of the pre-machina songs would have at least one quiet part and plenty of shifting dynamics, and quite often some kind of build-up and climax.
whereas i think every song on machina except TEG, SIYL, G+tGC and AOI (gotta love the abbr.'s) start and end on the same groove at the same level, and it's way more repetitive than usual. combine it with the fact that that groove is a noise of synthy scratchy soup, and it's really annoying.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 08:10 AM   #13
bonsor
 
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Pretty much what Smack Me In My Mouth said. The sound on Machina is so compressed that it's uninteresting to listen to. Laters over layers of sound piled up upon eachother squished onto one CD. There's too much stuff going on at the same time. It's just a mass of unidentifiable sound.

The songs would work much better on a more simple level.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 08:50 AM   #14
NegaBenji
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by THRILLHO:
why not? of course that could happen.

another thing i've noticed that seperates machina from the other albums (except maybe adore): most of the songs don't progress sonically. a lot of the pre-machina songs would have at least one quiet part and plenty of shifting dynamics, and quite often some kind of build-up and climax.
whereas i think every song on machina except TEG, SIYL, G+tGC and AOI (gotta love the abbr.'s) start and end on the same groove at the same level, and it's way more repetitive than usual. combine it with the fact that that groove is a noise of synthy scratchy soup, and it's really annoying.
I often thought this of the later sp songs - many of them don't really develop, and the overall feel of the song is pretty much established in the first minute or so, leaving nowhere for the song to go. Look at Wound - it just starts, keeps going, and then finishes. That's partly a songwriting issue, although production does involve deciding how to play a song. But yeah, the production on Machina isn't too good in some places - songs like SIYL are offset by muddy tracks like HMM and S+P. I do agree that some of the 'mistakes' were intentional though, like IOTM (which some people hate - I just think it's a cool take on the song). Not enough instrument separation, that's the problem

 
Old 02-07-2002, 09:54 AM   #15
Finsta
 
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Yeah, and the whole GATMOG thing was gay.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 12:11 PM   #16
silvergeek
 
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downfall of pumpkins = when billy discovered he could layer tracks on the computer.

he went off into the deep end.

the production in the last two albums sounded cold and dead. it was hard to even listen to the songs, even though some of the songs weren't too bad. it was hard to even breathe while listening to it, because it was so dense.

------------------
"Nostalgia isn't what it used to be"
AIM: silvergeek000

 
Old 02-07-2002, 12:57 PM   #17
Kumar Littlejeans
 
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In my opinion Machina sounds more organic than any of they're other albums, and Gish sounds the most glazed over to me for some odd reason. According to the interviews there, the machina "noise" is normal guitar signal mixed with such things like running an acoustic through a cheap cassete recorder so it makes an acoustic harmonic combination that's present alot of places on the album. And seeing how all the effects are aquired through analog, pedal or rigging means that equals natural to me. But maybe I just like weird ringing fuzzy guitar noises.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 02:01 PM   #18
illiterate
 
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Lightbulb

It's been a REALLY long time, but I recall Corgan saying in a Guitar Magazine interview that ProTools was used to produce Adore, but NOT Machina.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 02:20 PM   #19
ravenguy2000
 
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I can't tell you exactly what's wrong with it. I can tell you that it sounds like shit, though.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 02:37 PM   #20
Death rock boy
 
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I think the problem with Machina is that compressed "dense" sound. Sometimes it can be wonderful (Here is no why, Soma e-bow solo etc) when lots of tracks are bounced to a stereo 2-track. But Billy has compressed a lot of tracks into a fuzzy mess at times. Sometimes it sounds good, but a lot of the time the sound is just too muddy to be admired.


Having said that, off on a tangent a little, the songs just aren't as consistently good as they are on the other albums, and I think that's really where people get annoyed. The production isn't bad, it's very unique and it's a little too much to take in. But the album lacks the memorability of the others. Combine the vague and mostly unmemorable songs with the vague and compressed production, and you really get overall a vague album.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 02:52 PM   #21
KingKong
 
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The problem is the band didn't make a record that sounds like their other records. Those bastards.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 03:51 PM   #22
bloop
 
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by KingKong:
The problem is the band didn't make a record that sounds like their other records. Those bastards.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 04:35 PM   #23
paranoid
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by THRILLHO:
why not? of course that could happen.

another thing i've noticed that seperates machina from the other albums (except maybe adore): most of the songs don't progress sonically. a lot of the pre-machina songs would have at least one quiet part and plenty of shifting dynamics, and quite often some kind of build-up and climax.
whereas i think every song on machina except TEG, SIYL, G+tGC and AOI (gotta love the abbr.'s) start and end on the same groove at the same level, and it's way more repetitive than usual. combine it with the fact that that groove is a noise of synthy scratchy soup, and it's really annoying.

you missed i of the mourning, bone head. that song builds up better than AOI.. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/tongue.gif


------------------
I can suck my own ****.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 05:18 PM   #24
The exploding boy
 
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Red face

Well you identified the problem yourself. TOO polished. That being said i think it's a good record (not awesome but good) but i don't like the production. I noticed something was wrong with it when i started to try to play along with it.

 
Old 02-07-2002, 05:47 PM   #25
neopryn
 
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Talking

Quote:
Originally posted by paranoid:

you missed i of the mourning, bone head. that song builds up better than AOI.. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/tongue.gif


And BSBT. You know you like the progressively distorted "blue skies bring tears"


 
Old 02-07-2002, 11:15 PM   #26
mjnova
 
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I've already said that I like the over production, but I'd just like say I think the last 5 cuts are some of the best things Billy has done. It's amazing that he can make songs like BSBT and the Crying Tree that are deliberately slow and plodding yet still enjoyable to listen to. Plus the other three are just great songs. If you don't love With Every Light there may be something wrong with you.

Plus the Machine 2 version of HMM is grrrreat!

Max

 
Old 02-08-2002, 12:41 AM   #27
Raskolnikov
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by mjnova:
I'd just like say I think the last 5 cuts are some of the best things Billy has done. It's amazing that he can make songs like BSBT and the Crying Tree that are deliberately slow and plodding yet still enjoyable to listen to.

Plus the Machine 2 version of HMM is grrrreat!

Max
I don't think I could disagree with you more on any of those points. HMM from Machina 2 is easily my least favorite SP song. I really like CTOM, but the BSBT that's on Machina just stinks. I like the "electrique" version 100x more.

But, hey... to each their own. All of those are some of the Pumpkins more "metal"-y tracks, so maybe that's what floats your boat.

As for WIL, you're right there. That's one of my top 3 all-time SP songs.


 
Old 02-08-2002, 07:52 AM   #28
neopryn
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by mjnova:
I've already said that I like the over production, but I'd just like say I think the last 5 cuts are some of the best things Billy has done. It's amazing that he can make songs like BSBT and the Crying Tree that are deliberately slow and plodding yet still enjoyable to listen to. Plus the other three are just great songs. If you don't love With Every Light there may be something wrong with you.

Plus the Machine 2 version of HMM is grrrreat!

Max
Wow that's bold. I agree with the above poster that BSBT version electrique is way better, but I still love the Machina version, I don't even have words for it. You're right on WEL. And I used to like TCTOM, but listening to everybody bitch about it kinda ruined it, don't ask why. And sorry, but the M2 HMM sucks. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/tongue.gif


 
Old 02-08-2002, 04:13 PM   #29
mjnova
 
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Post

Quote:
Originally posted by neopryn:
Quote:
Originally posted by mjnova:

Wow that's bold. I agree with the above poster that BSBT version electrique is way better, but I still love the Machina version, I don't even have words for it. You're right on WEL. And I used to like TCTOM, but listening to everybody bitch about it kinda ruined it, don't ask why. And sorry, but the M2 HMM sucks. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/tongue.gif

I was just trying to wind people up with the last point, but I do honestly rather like it.

Also I do like the "real" non-album BSBT better, but I think the album version works surprisingly well. it's not their best album but who cares, they're allowed to have a few weak tracks every once in a blue moon (S&P for one).

Max

 
Old 02-08-2002, 04:27 PM   #30
ava adore 13
 
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by KingKong:
The problem is the band didn't make a record that sounds like their other records. Those bastards.

 
 


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