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Old 03-08-2018, 01:46 AM   #1051
MyKeyZ
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As much as I would love to hear the original Pumpkins with Albini in the studio, perhaps someone like Nick Raskulinecz or Terry Date or John Congleton or get Boris to help produce.

Or Billy and co. should make a real heavy fuck you album with Ross Robinson when the tour is canceled.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 01:56 AM   #1052
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Originally Posted by redbreegull View Post
he did become more formulaic. I don't think SIYL is a good example, but I also don't think it's because of 1979. Gish is the least pop album and every album after that is consecutively more pop oriented basically
agree. perfect is a good example of 1979-retreading but SIYL is a fantastic song

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:00 AM   #1053
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Yeah I’m not buying this 1979 theory. I always saw SIYL as the answer to LMGTW not having been a single on Adore.

Perfect, tryx3, wound do have that 1979 vibe but I don’t think he centered his writing around that one song after 1995. You talk about how Ava adore chorus is similar but can you be more specific?

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:46 AM   #1054
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The only songs I really see as borrowing a lot from "1979" are "Perfect" and "Try, Try, Try."

And even then, I don't see revisiting that sound for those songs as creatively bankrupt. He wrote that song. He can do some sequels to it if he wants to. Those songs sat amongst other songs that were totally different. How the fuck is "The Everlasting Gaze" like "1979?"

For the record, I really like "Perfect," but I think "Try, Try, Try" is kinda boring, and I often skip it. But it's not the fact that it's a spiritual successor to "1979" in itself that makes me not like it.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 03:14 AM   #1055
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Originally Posted by houseofglass11 View Post
Flood can't mix heavy rock for shit. The mellow songs sound great though.
MACHINA
Mixed By – Alan Moulder (tracks: 1 to 4, 6 to 9, 11, 12, 15), Billy Corgan, Bjorn Thorsrud (tracks: 5, 10, 13, 14), Flood, Howard Willing (tracks: 5, 10, 13, 14)

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:47 AM   #1056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyKeyZ View Post
Smashing Pumpkins' MCIS vs Siamese Dream
Flood's lo-fi production > Butch Vig's hi-fi production

Nirvana's In Utero vs Nevermind
Steve Albini's lo-fi production > Butch Vig's hi-fi production

Albini and Flood captured what these bands actually sound like live and in person and not some super glossy, radio friendly version of them. It was about capturing the real band, all members playing together in a room. In Utero is up there as one of the best produced rock records ever.

Those albums fuzzy mentioned just happen to also be those bands' best albums.

I highly suggest the Devonshire mixes of Nevermind that came with the super deluxe edition, much better than the final mix and master.
Nirvana tracks are so simple and grungy that lofi production works and is more suited to the band

MCIS is just comes off really bland. And that's not even a live thing, I listen to bootlegs way, way more than studio records because they sound better, more energetic, etc.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 08:53 AM   #1057
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mcis bland???

goddamn ram goddamn

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:06 AM   #1058
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MCIS is far from bland. I don't think people would have adored the album as much if the production was shiny and over the top pristine. That would have been bland. It's the way the album was recorded and produced that captures the ferocity and tenderness and emotion in the songs. MCIS is what it is because of the way it was recorded and produced. If the production was different, it would be a different album and, who knows, it may never have become a hit. There's a reason it is loved. I'll take the production of Zero over the production of Today any day. It's not about just capturing someone playing crystal clear, it's about capturing the intent and feeling and raw emotion of that moment and have that come across to the listener. MCIS captures that. If you change all of that, would it feel the same? I don’t know, I don't think it would it.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:12 AM   #1059
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I listened to Machina for the first time in 1000 years after Bilbo posted it was its birthday. I actually enjoyed it for the most part. The production does sound a little muddied, but I think the songwriting is descent looking back on it and comparing it to post Zwan and SP2. I still prefer the live arrangements though, particularly glass and the ghost children. Is everlasting gaze the worst single they've ever released? Probably.

Adore's production sounds a bit dated on some of the songs now, but again i think the songwriting is pretty good overall. I loved those adore tour shows and the acoustic show on the re-issue.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:23 AM   #1060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyKeyZ View Post
Albini and Flood captured what these bands actually sound like live and in person and not some super glossy, radio friendly version of them. It was about capturing the real band, all members playing together in a room. In Utero is up there as one of the best produced rock records ever.
I don't know why people think the mark of a good producer is being able to "capture the sound of the band in the room". The mark of a good producer is someone who can make a good record. Why does it have to be a live sound?

That's why I prefer the production of SD - they went for it big time, to make the record sound as good as it could, almost distinct from being a live band. It was about the record, not the band. Live performances are about the band.

My main gripe with MCIS are the vocals - they sound terrible. They are so compressed and there's no ambience or "roomy" sound to them. They sound like he recorded them using a hand mic in the control room. Compare them to the vocals on SD - rich, layered, in tune and unique.

I don't disagree with you about Albini / In Utero. It sounds great. However I don't care if it's the sound of the boys in the room, I just want a great record. The Beatles made great records but from 1966 onwards they had nothing to do with being a band in a room (besides, they rarely recorded all at once during the studio years).

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:34 AM   #1061
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Originally Posted by MyKeyZ View Post
John Congleton
my boi!

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:35 AM   #1062
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To each their own.
I love MCIS a thousand times more than Siamese Dream, but each album can be. They both capture the band differently. But I feel a lot more emotion and energy with MCIS than I do with SD and I have to consider the way it was recorded and produced was a part of that. It's not that you have to capture the sound of the band in a room, it's just that sometimes that way of recording works with the type of music you're trying to deliver. I don't think MCIS would have been as successful if it was all glossed up. SD is what it is and its production worked for those tracks, but it wouldn't have worked for MCIS songs.

Nine Inch Nails put out Not The Actual Events EP and it's one of the best things Trent Reznor has done in a long time. It's raw and dirty like Broken and The Downward Spiral and nothing like the artificial, overly produced, glitchy electronic sound of Year Zero or Hesitation Marks. I never saw NIN fans more excited. The production worked for those songs.

Sometimes you just wanna be dirty.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:37 AM   #1063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soniclovenoize View Post
my boi!
I love his work with Explosions In The Sky, which is what made me think he could be a perfect fit for Pumpkins. He's worked on some great records for other artists as well.

Last edited by MyKeyZ : 03-08-2018 at 09:50 AM.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:45 AM   #1064
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Originally Posted by MyKeyZ View Post
I love his work with Explosions In The Sky, which is what made me think he could be a perfect fit for Pumpkins. He's worked on some great records for othet artists as well.
I was a huge pAper chAse fan. I saw them a few times in a very tiny basement back in like 2001 and 2002 I think, as well as on a club tour in 2004 I think... Met John several times, he's a great guy. Great drum sounds.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 11:18 AM   #1065
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Originally Posted by MyKeyZ View Post
It's not about just capturing someone playing crystal clear, it's about capturing the intent and feeling and raw emotion of that moment and have that come across to the listener.
I 1000% agree with this.....maybe I'm weird, but I feel making an album in general strips emotion and feeling. No matter if you're going for Butch Vig perfection, or Albini rawness, when you play take after take of the same song, you'll become numb to what it's actually about. Listening back to takes, doing overdubs, recording instruments one by one detaches you from the ethos.

But if it's the first time today you've played XYU, and you're in Rio, in front of tens of thousands of people, sweating your ass off, probably on drugs, you'll scream "SHE WILL NEVER LEARN" with so much more ferocity than if you're in a studio with your boss behind the glass....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yemSxnGKc6s

Or check Jimmy's fill at 3:55. That's not on the studio version.

Different production styles get you closer to raw emotion, but nothing compares to live recordings.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 11:24 AM   #1066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eviltimeban View Post
I don't know why people think the mark of a good producer is being able to "capture the sound of the band in the room". The mark of a good producer is someone who can make a good record. Why does it have to be a live sound?

That's why I prefer the production of SD - they went for it big time, to make the record sound as good as it could, almost distinct from being a live band. It was about the record, not the band. Live performances are about the band.

My main gripe with MCIS are the vocals - they sound terrible. They are so compressed and there's no ambience or "roomy" sound to them. They sound like he recorded them using a hand mic in the control room. Compare them to the vocals on SD - rich, layered, in tune and unique.

I don't disagree with you about Albini / In Utero. It sounds great. However I don't care if it's the sound of the boys in the room, I just want a great record. The Beatles made great records but from 1966 onwards they had nothing to do with being a band in a room (besides, they rarely recorded all at once during the studio years).
Exactly. Records aren't about the band, they're about the producer.

Even using the Nirvana example, In Utero isn't Nirvana. Nirvana is Kurt Cobain strung out on cough medicine, jumping into the crowd and getting knocked out by a bouncer...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyX8rXhHj8w

And since records are about the producer, I like Butch Vig's style better. If you're going to codify something, codify the most idyllic version possible

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 11:57 AM   #1067
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Originally Posted by soniclovenoize View Post
I was a huge pAper chAse fan. I saw them a few times in a very tiny basement back in like 2001 and 2002 I think, as well as on a club tour in 2004 I think... Met John several times, he's a great guy. Great drum sounds.
Love John and pAper chAse (haven't revisited the material in a while). Recorded them at the 400 Bar and First Avenue. Always wanted The Nighty Nite to stop through.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:06 PM   #1068
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Originally Posted by eviltimeban View Post
I don't know why people think the mark of a good producer is being able to "capture the sound of the band in the room".
I really hate this approach too. To me, it's creatively lazy and robs songs of their true potential. "Capturing the sound of a band in a room" also conveniently directs all criticism away from the producer and onto the band.

Steve Albini can shove his overalls up his ass.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:12 PM   #1069
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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...eve_Albini.png

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:30 PM   #1070
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all i know about steve albini is that he works with mono. and mono is the greatest band of all time.

ya'll can choke and ctulhic dong.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:32 PM   #1071
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:42 PM   #1072
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:59 PM   #1073
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Originally Posted by Ram27 View Post
Exactly. Records aren't about the band, they're about the producer.

Even using the Nirvana example, In Utero isn't Nirvana. Nirvana is Kurt Cobain strung out on cough medicine, jumping into the crowd and getting knocked out by a bouncer...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyX8rXhHj8w

And since records are about the producer, I like Butch Vig's style better. If you're going to codify something, codify the most idyllic version possible
My god you have grown into a pretentious fuckwad.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 03:07 PM   #1074
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In Utero fucking slays.

Sorry ram.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 03:17 PM   #1075
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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
In Utero fucking slays.

Sorry ram.
I concur.
Also Steve Albini is an amazing producer and he is very open to helping up and comers learn the trade.

If you like In Utero, you should check out Metz. Albini produced their albums. Anyone here listen to Metz?


 
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Old 03-08-2018, 03:18 PM   #1076
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as much as i like the pumpkins' music, i almost never listen to any of their live recordings because they are boring AF. but i'll listen to a shitload of other bands live. something about the pumpkins live sucks. there are a few good screams here and there, and yeah, vieuphoria is amazing through and through, but outside of that, hearing the pumpkins live does nothing for me.

SD is a perfect album and i'll never get enough of that sound. i love how layered it is. i love how perfect it is. same with nirvana's nevermind, but i love watching nirvana play live too. i'll watch youtubes of kurt playing breed, drain you, and negative creep all day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKtAJfY_ibY&t=500s

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 03:24 PM   #1077
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I can watch and listen to early Pumpkins live shows. Anything before the original break up, excluding a lot of Adore era shows. SP2.0 is boring as hell to watch. Their live performance during the Adore era was a mess.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 03:28 PM   #1078
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cool man.

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 04:32 PM   #1079
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MCIS > SD

just has more exciting songs, the production works for them

 
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Old 03-08-2018, 05:11 PM   #1080
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Heard a good quote the other day that went something like this: "Nirvana made one good record. It was called Bleach. Then they made a record where they tried to sound like Boston, and followed that up with a fake indie record."

 
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