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Old 03-21-2017, 09:40 PM   #6841
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popular entertainment... where fewer people are tortured and murdered, right?

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:40 PM   #6842
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i think that using subjective comparative history is self serving at best

you do not see my point that it is subjective and you're overlooking a lot of bad stuff in the persuit of proving a point that is moot

and yet none of you will relent.

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:41 PM   #6843
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popular entertainment... where fewer people are tortured and murdered, right?
the human delight in watching people tortured & mudered has not changed

and yet we have prisons full of people being tortured and murdered and yet that's different

again, this is being used to justify the status quo. it serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE other than to justify the status quo. there is no reason to even have this discussion if it wasn't to justify the status quo. Its ok that we incarcerate millions and have torture porn as a cinematic genre because its so much less than it was in 1682

(for now at least, the future is dark and full of terrors)

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:41 PM   #6844
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i see your point that you think that capitalism & liberalism has improved society from previous eras

i think that using subjective comparative history is self serving at best

you do not see my point that it is subjective and you're overlooking a lot of bad stuff in the persuit of proving a point that is moot

and yet none of you will relent.
society w/r/t violence is improved since past eras, as far as i have learned. i'm making no judgement as to why this is, just that it is so. if we can't agree on that then i guess we can't

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:42 PM   #6845
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i do see your point and i respect it, though

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:44 PM   #6846
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:44 PM   #6847
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Originally Posted by Trotskilicious View Post
the human delight in watching people tortured & mudered has not changed

and yet we have prisons full of people being tortured and murdered and yet that's different

again, this is being used to justify the status quo. it serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE other than to justify the status quo. there is no reason to even have this discussion if it wasn't to justify the status quo. Its ok that we incarcerate millions and have torture porn as a cinematic genre because its so much less than it was in 1682

(for now at least, the future is dark and full of terrors)
I don't think people have the same visceral delight in watching real people be torn apart in front of their eyes, but maybe that's just me. Perhaps it doesn't matter and it's just a different kind of socialization but if that kind of thing was normal before and is now abhorrent something must have changed, no? Isn't torture porn as a cinematic genre better than actual torture in town squares? I hate that shit personally anyway

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:46 PM   #6848
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society w/r/t violence is improved since past eras, as far as i have learned
& i simply can't acknowledge that as being factually provable

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:46 PM   #6849
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now see, this is the Trotsky that I missed.

I've gotta admit I quite enjoyed seeing him school JNAH

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:46 PM   #6850
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Absolutely, btw, imprisoning people is a violent act but again we've done away with debtor's prisons (SORT OF, at least outright) and 'hard labor' and at least entertain the idea that prison should not be hell

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:47 PM   #6851
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I don't think people have the same visceral delight in watching real people be torn apart in front of their eyes, but maybe that's just me.
i have no idea, its impossible to ever know, thats what i'm getting at

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:47 PM   #6852
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now see, this is the Trotsky that I missed.

I've gotta admit I quite enjoyed seeing him school JNAH
shut the fuck up you don't even understand what we're talking about

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:48 PM   #6853
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now see, this is the Trotsky that I missed.

I've gotta admit I quite enjoyed seeing him school JNAH
please don't pretend you understand what is being argued here

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:49 PM   #6854
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shut the fuck up you don't even understand what we're talking about
NOICE

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:49 PM   #6855
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Absolutely, btw, imprisoning people is a violent act but again we've done away with debtor's prisons (SORT OF, at least outright)
again, a lot of liberal interpretations of history assume this is the end point (a la fukuyama even though he might individually be made fun of) and that things can't or won't change in the future

i don't know what you think the climate is going to do but we'll find out i guess

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:50 PM   #6856
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i have no idea, its impossible to ever know, thats what i'm getting at
Obviously we can't get into people's heads, but if torturing people for mass pleasure became abhorrent as an institution when it simply was common before, and people were murdered and publicity tortured for petty theft and not paying taxes, why would this have changed if not for personal attitudes about what is moral changing?

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:51 PM   #6857
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again, a lot of liberal interpretations of histories assume this is the end point (a la fukuyama even though he might individually be made fun of) and that things can't or won't change in the future

i don't know what you think the climate is going to do but we'll find out i guess
I think we did talk about how a big collapse is coming at the beginning of the argument though. it was acknowledged at least once. I don't think anyone referenced an end of history idea

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:52 PM   #6858
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climate is fucking terrifying not gonna lie

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:52 PM   #6859
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even if the folks in this thread didn't, thats what i think this interpretation of history assumes

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:53 PM   #6860
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I think we did talk about how a big collapse is coming at the beginning of the argument though. it was acknowledged at least once. I don't think anyone referenced an end of history idea
i mean yeah we're all doomed

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:55 PM   #6861
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i just had to look up end of history, i'm a pleb i guess but i can admit that i don't know a lot about this topic as a political discussion. i'm interested in the actual human elements involved in a societal decrease or increase in violence, genocides, torture, etc and not the political aspects per se

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:57 PM   #6862
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When I was in school we also laughed at Fukuyama, but I also remember making the connecting that Marx also believed in the end of history and the idea is senseless in general. It's weird to me that anyone can think something like that

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:00 PM   #6863
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I don't think people have the same visceral delight in watching real people be torn apart in front of their eyes, but maybe that's just me. Perhaps it doesn't matter and it's just a different kind of socialization but if that kind of thing was normal before and is now abhorrent something must have changed, no?
Haven't you spoken of frequenting a subreddit dedicated in part to footage of people dying?

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:16 PM   #6864
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I do sometimes look at /r/watchpeopledie, that's true. But I don't watch the stuff with people getting tortured or murdered. Perhaps that doesn't matter though. I think it's the PTSD part of me who is convinced I am going to die soon, if not that I'm already dead, and trying to somehow prevent it by learning what mistakes to not make, or getting used to the idea that I'll soon be dead. But you have a good point. I mostly look at disasters/large accidents and jumping suicides. Just to be clear I don't look at it all the time, I kinda go on kicks... not sure when the last one was

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:18 PM   #6865
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could it be that our ability to exploit fossil fuels accounts for global increase in quality of life more so than capitalist democracy

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:21 PM   #6866
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a different argument from "are things better" to which the answer seems to be yes by any metric I can conceive of even for the impoverished

but maybe I lack imagination

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:34 PM   #6867
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could it be that our ability to exploit fossil fuels accounts for global increase in quality of life more so than capitalist democracy
it's all connected, man

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:40 PM   #6868
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I do sometimes look at /r/watchpeopledie, that's true. But I don't watch the stuff with people getting tortured or murdered. Perhaps that doesn't matter though.
Your own viewing habits aside, it does at least appear that there's still some level of demand for the more extreme variety of material.

I'd be a little curious to see the audience numbers.

 
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:46 PM   #6869
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personally I would never go back in time, even given the opportunity. The past sucked, and it is kind of exciting to watch it all burn down

also it seems like a massive waste of energy


 
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:51 PM   #6870
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could it be that our ability to exploit fossil fuels accounts for global increase in quality of life more so than capitalist democracy
mass exploitation of worldwide resources is what created capitalism

it started with fur, tobacco & spice and it ends with fossil fuels

 
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