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Old 05-09-2016, 08:02 AM   #61
Elphenor
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No because my great grandmother was 1/2

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 08:03 AM   #62
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Edit: 1/16th math

And I don't identify as anything but "white" because I'm so removed from it culturally

Point is there is a lot of native heritage in mostly southern white people stop being dumb

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 08:07 AM   #63
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Also the tribe you're from is important if my heritage was in a different tribe 1/16th is sometimes even enough as far as they are concerned

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 08:11 AM   #64
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You're not an Indian, Elfiner. I'm sorry. Grandma just had a tan.

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 08:45 AM   #65
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I can see the argument for the other things about Trump, but why is his call to deport illegals so controversial? Isn't that the law? Isn't that the job of the president to enforce the law?
Because these people who have been here for decades and in some cases have American children should not just be ripped away from everything they know. Laws should not be absolutes in these cases; there is morality and there is law, and they are not always the same thing. I am not saying we should not have immigration laws and enforce them, but we should not start by deporting people who live basically as citizens in all but papers. Give these people citizenship, and revise the laws for future immigrants, and follow those laws. Don't pull the rug out of people who are already here.

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 08:46 AM   #66
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You're not an Indian, Elfiner. I'm sorry. Grandma just had a tan.
He doesn't identify as an Indian. But surely if his great grandmother was 1/2, she was indeed an Indian. Saying she just had a tan is fucked up, asshole

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 09:02 AM   #67
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Because these people who have been here for decades and in some cases have American children should not just be ripped away from everything they know. Laws should not be absolutes in these cases; there is morality and there is law, and they are not always the same thing. I am not saying we should not have immigration laws and enforce them, but we should not start by deporting people who live basically as citizens in all but papers. Give these people citizenship, and revise the laws for future immigrants, and follow those laws. Don't pull the rug out of people who are already here.
That is exactly what you are saying.

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 09:03 AM   #68
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He doesn't identify as an Indian. But surely if his great grandmother was 1/2, she was indeed an Indian. Saying she just had a tan is fucked up, asshole
It's not fucked up it's a joke. Lighten up.

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:08 AM   #69
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That is exactly what you are saying.
I'm saying we should enforce them, but not before we fix the problems that have come up while we have not enforced them, and look at them closely w/r/t modifying them for the future.

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:09 AM   #70
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It's not fucked up it's a joke. Lighten up.
Somehow your jokes seem to be racist a lot (and xenophobic in general). I wonder why that is?

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:29 AM   #71
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Somehow your jokes seem to be racist a lot (and xenophobic in general). I wonder why that is?
because it pisses you off and I find that amusing

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:31 AM   #72
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I'm saying we should enforce them, but not before we fix the problems that have come up while we have not enforced them, and look at them closely w/r/t modifying them for the future.
So, change the law and then enforce it is what you are saying? And the change you are making is basically a free-for-all stampede path to citizenship? Get here any way you can, we'll deal with the paperwork later.

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:26 AM   #73
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I am for a simple path to citizenship to anyone who wants to come here

At the very least those that are fleeing poverty in developing nations ought to all be granted refugee status

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:28 AM   #74
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Send us your poor send us your hungry

We will benefit from them

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:33 AM   #75
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That sounds very compassionate, but why is it the United States government's responsibility to act as a welfare state for the third world? If you ******* poverty as a qualification for refugee status, where does that leave the poor in America?

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:33 AM   #76
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Send us your poor send us your hungry

We will benefit from them
not at $17.00 an hour we won't

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:35 AM   #77
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So, change the law and then enforce it is what you are saying? And the change you are making is basically a free-for-all stampede path to citizenship? Get here any way you can, we'll deal with the paperwork later.
I think a path to citizenship should be easy, yes. But I'm not a policy maker and I don't know the logistics of making that happen, so I won't pretend to know what that entails.

However, I'm only talking about people who are already here who should have different rules apply to them, not a system in perpetuity that says you should get here however you can and you'll have immunity from immigration laws.

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:37 AM   #78
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That sounds very compassionate, but why is it the United States government's responsibility to act as a welfare state for the third world? If you ******* poverty as a qualification for refugee status, where does that leave the poor in America?
Poverty in America is terrible but it's generally not comparable to poverty in third world countries, especially African third world countries.

And it's not our obligation but morally, isn't it a good thing to help people in the world suffer less? Including our own citizens and other people? Why shouldn't we be compassionate if we're able? The United States won't last forever. We have a unique place in the world and could (and do to some degree) help others have a less shitty life. I think that's a good thing.

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:46 AM   #79
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I think a path to citizenship should be easy, yes. But I'm not a policy maker and I don't know the logistics of making that happen, so I won't pretend to know what that entails.

However, I'm only talking about people who are already here who should have different rules apply to them, not a system in perpetuity that says you should get here however you can and you'll have immunity from immigration laws.
So, people who have broken our immigration laws and raised their families here should be treated differently simply by virtue of them flagrantly flouting the law for years? Reward those who have broken the law and gotten away with it for so long that "well just let them stay because, well just let them stay."

The problem is that our current laws have been ignored for so long that we have the perpetual stampede as you described above. Every now and then, you have Reagan or Bush granting general amnesty with the caveat of "ok, you can all stay, but this time we really mean it, no more illegal aliens". It's a joke and everyone knows it. But if you suggest actually enforcing the law, then you are a xenophobic racist? WTF?

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:48 AM   #80
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Poverty in America is terrible but it's generally not comparable to poverty in third world countries, especially African third world countries.

And it's not our obligation but morally, isn't it a good thing to help people in the world suffer less? Including our own citizens and other people? Why shouldn't we be compassionate if we're able? The United States won't last forever. We have a unique place in the world and could (and do to some degree) help others have a less shitty life. I think that's a good thing.
The obverse is that, as we let more poor people in, provide them with services, etc, our standard of living inevitably goes down. Everyone in central and south america cannot rise to the level of middle class America.

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:57 AM   #81
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So, people who have broken our immigration laws and raised their families here should be treated differently simply by virtue of them flagrantly flouting the law for years? Reward those who have broken the law and gotten away with it for so long that "well just let them stay because, well just let them stay."

The problem is that our current laws have been ignored for so long that we have the perpetual stampede as you described above. Every now and then, you have Reagan or Bush granting general amnesty with the caveat of "ok, you can all stay, but this time we really mean it, no more illegal aliens". It's a joke and everyone knows it. But if you suggest actually enforcing the law, then you are a xenophobic racist? WTF?
Yes, they should be treated differently, because they've already assimilated. They are already part of the economy and the community. Most are coming from harsh conditions in other countries and I do not blame them for breaking the law. Punishing people for breaking the law just because they broke it, when it would be easier for both them and our country to let them stay at this point (and not cause riots), is poor moral logic. Yes it's unfair wah wah wah, get over it. What's best for everybody in this situation is not kicking out 11+ million people.

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The obverse is that, as we let more poor people in, provide them with services, etc, our standard of living inevitably goes down. Everyone in central and south america cannot rise to the level of middle class America.
Of course they can't. But some people can. If we know who we are letting in, and have statistics on what they contribute and what they get in social services, how much schooling costs and housing costs etc change when population increases, we can create plans to ensure the economy doesn't suffer for the middle and working class. Documenting the illegals already here and offering them citizenship or a pathway to citizenship would be a first step to that.

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 12:25 PM   #82
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Of course they can't. But some people can. If we know who we are letting in, and have statistics on what they contribute and what they get in social services, how much schooling costs and housing costs etc change when population increases, we can create plans to ensure the economy doesn't suffer for the middle and working class. Documenting the illegals already here and offering them citizenship or a pathway to citizenship would be a first step to that.
You say all this as if there is magically enough money to provide them all with services, jobs for them to work in and draw a $17 minimum wage, etc.

"we can create plans to ensure the economy doesn't suffer for the middle and working class" No you most certainly cannot. It would be great if this were true, but it is idealistic nonsense. You don't get a stronger economy for the poor and middle class by injecting more poor people into it. The only people who benefit are the wealthy and that is through cheap labor.

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 12:37 PM   #83
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I'm not an economist so I'm not going to argue with you about that stuff. My main points are about current undocumented people who should be granted amnesty and citizenship or a path to citizenship. We can't do much without starting with that and having statistics about what is actually happening in the country w/r/t workers who are undocumented.

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 12:59 PM   #84
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A main problem with those who argue for unrestricted immigration/general amnesty or whatever is that they don't understand the economic impact of illegal immigration. In short, it simply does not help the middle class, not to mention the poor. It does help the wealthy who benefit from their labor. Which explains why the "problem" of illegal immigration has not been dealt with. If the most powerful nation on earth wanted to defend it's boarders (no matter how many thousands of miles) from floods of unarmed immigrants, it could easily do so. The fact that it hasn't, that the government has encouraged illegal immigration through general amnesty (not by bleeding hearts, but by neo-con presidents) and sounded the clarion call for anyone and everyone to come on over, should tell you all you need to know about our immigration issues.

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:20 PM   #85
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That sounds very compassionate, but why is it the United States government's responsibility to act as a welfare state for the third world? If you ******* poverty as a qualification for refugee status, where does that leave the poor in America?
Poverty in America is horrible but just not remotely the same thing as third world poverty where children are starving to death

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:21 PM   #86
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Poots the majority of illegals come here legally and then let their papers expire

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:23 PM   #87
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Illegals do not hurt the middle class that is a myth

If anything their low wages make our goods cheaper

They work jobs Americans simply would not do

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:25 PM   #88
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It still doesn't explain how the United States can care for all of the world's poor. We can't. I think everyone can agree on that. So then, where do we draw the line? Do we allow unrestricted immigration until we suffer extremely negative economic consequences and then cut it off? That doens't sound like a sensible plan of action.

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:30 PM   #89
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We can care for the intake we are currently taking

What's better is if we treat them like human beings and not weights, we can all profit from them

 
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:32 PM   #90
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Illegals do not hurt the middle class that is a myth

If anything their low wages make our goods cheaper

They work jobs Americans simply would not do
So then, are you in favor of those illegals, who are being underpaid, being made citizens and then earning a $17 minimum wage?

 
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