Netphoria Message Board


Go Back   Netphoria Message Board > General Boards > General Chat Message Board
Register Netphoria's Amazon.com Link Members List Photo Album Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-09-2016, 12:26 PM   #61
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

I am for a simple path to citizenship to anyone who wants to come here

At the very least those that are fleeing poverty in developing nations ought to all be granted refugee status

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 12:28 PM   #62
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

Send us your poor send us your hungry

We will benefit from them

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 12:35 PM   #63
reprise85
Submortal
 
reprise85's Avatar
 
Location: Now, I'm not a professional psychologist, but I am an amateur psychologist. And I think that your spontaneous eye-watering may have something to do with your father.
Posts: 27,953
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poots View Post
So, change the law and then enforce it is what you are saying? And the change you are making is basically a free-for-all stampede path to citizenship? Get here any way you can, we'll deal with the paperwork later.
I think a path to citizenship should be easy, yes. But I'm not a policy maker and I don't know the logistics of making that happen, so I won't pretend to know what that entails.

However, I'm only talking about people who are already here who should have different rules apply to them, not a system in perpetuity that says you should get here however you can and you'll have immunity from immigration laws.

 
reprise85 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 12:37 PM   #64
reprise85
Submortal
 
reprise85's Avatar
 
Location: Now, I'm not a professional psychologist, but I am an amateur psychologist. And I think that your spontaneous eye-watering may have something to do with your father.
Posts: 27,953
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poots View Post
That sounds very compassionate, but why is it the United States government's responsibility to act as a welfare state for the third world? If you ******* poverty as a qualification for refugee status, where does that leave the poor in America?
Poverty in America is terrible but it's generally not comparable to poverty in third world countries, especially African third world countries.

And it's not our obligation but morally, isn't it a good thing to help people in the world suffer less? Including our own citizens and other people? Why shouldn't we be compassionate if we're able? The United States won't last forever. We have a unique place in the world and could (and do to some degree) help others have a less shitty life. I think that's a good thing.

 
reprise85 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 12:57 PM   #65
reprise85
Submortal
 
reprise85's Avatar
 
Location: Now, I'm not a professional psychologist, but I am an amateur psychologist. And I think that your spontaneous eye-watering may have something to do with your father.
Posts: 27,953
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poots View Post
So, people who have broken our immigration laws and raised their families here should be treated differently simply by virtue of them flagrantly flouting the law for years? Reward those who have broken the law and gotten away with it for so long that "well just let them stay because, well just let them stay."

The problem is that our current laws have been ignored for so long that we have the perpetual stampede as you described above. Every now and then, you have Reagan or Bush granting general amnesty with the caveat of "ok, you can all stay, but this time we really mean it, no more illegal aliens". It's a joke and everyone knows it. But if you suggest actually enforcing the law, then you are a xenophobic racist? WTF?
Yes, they should be treated differently, because they've already assimilated. They are already part of the economy and the community. Most are coming from harsh conditions in other countries and I do not blame them for breaking the law. Punishing people for breaking the law just because they broke it, when it would be easier for both them and our country to let them stay at this point (and not cause riots), is poor moral logic. Yes it's unfair wah wah wah, get over it. What's best for everybody in this situation is not kicking out 11+ million people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poots View Post
The obverse is that, as we let more poor people in, provide them with services, etc, our standard of living inevitably goes down. Everyone in central and south america cannot rise to the level of middle class America.
Of course they can't. But some people can. If we know who we are letting in, and have statistics on what they contribute and what they get in social services, how much schooling costs and housing costs etc change when population increases, we can create plans to ensure the economy doesn't suffer for the middle and working class. Documenting the illegals already here and offering them citizenship or a pathway to citizenship would be a first step to that.

 
reprise85 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 01:37 PM   #66
reprise85
Submortal
 
reprise85's Avatar
 
Location: Now, I'm not a professional psychologist, but I am an amateur psychologist. And I think that your spontaneous eye-watering may have something to do with your father.
Posts: 27,953
Default

I'm not an economist so I'm not going to argue with you about that stuff. My main points are about current undocumented people who should be granted amnesty and citizenship or a path to citizenship. We can't do much without starting with that and having statistics about what is actually happening in the country w/r/t workers who are undocumented.

 
reprise85 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 02:20 PM   #67
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poots View Post
That sounds very compassionate, but why is it the United States government's responsibility to act as a welfare state for the third world? If you ******* poverty as a qualification for refugee status, where does that leave the poor in America?
Poverty in America is horrible but just not remotely the same thing as third world poverty where children are starving to death

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 02:21 PM   #68
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

Poots the majority of illegals come here legally and then let their papers expire

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 02:23 PM   #69
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

Illegals do not hurt the middle class that is a myth

If anything their low wages make our goods cheaper

They work jobs Americans simply would not do

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 02:30 PM   #70
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

We can care for the intake we are currently taking

What's better is if we treat them like human beings and not weights, we can all profit from them

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 02:36 PM   #71
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

Yes to them making fair wages

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 02:37 PM   #72
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

Also free college

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 02:38 PM   #73
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

This is similar to the overpopulation myth where people are only seen as liabilities

People don't just consume they also produce.

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 03:09 PM   #74
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

Not with our current tax code

But with the right one we'd all profit

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 03:50 PM   #75
redbreegull
Immortal
 
redbreegull's Avatar
 
Location: we are the new age of whatever
Posts: 25,819
Default

FISCAL REALITY

 
redbreegull is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 05:46 PM   #76
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

I'm suggesting we make them legal and anyone else who wants to come here legal

We then raise taxes dramatically on the wealthiest Americans. 90% marginal on anything over 500k a year probably. Raise taxes on corporations, close loop holes that allow them to pay practically nothing.

Further taxation on wall street trading and speculation

A bit of a tax increase on the middle class because let's be realistic it's necessary.

Deep cuts to military spending

We then take that money and invest in our population. Education, healthcare, jobs, sustainable energy

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 05:50 PM   #77
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

Our smart healthy population goes to work and adds to the economy we all profit

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 06:58 PM   #78
The Omega Concern
Minion of Satan
 
The Omega Concern's Avatar
 
Location: stay, far, away
Posts: 8,991
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by reprise85 View Post
The religious left? I think it would involve all kinds of people.

The things Trump stands for and says he'll do will tear the country apart and change how the international community sees the country for the worse. Of course people react to that. He's not even a politician and has no vision for how his policies will have domino effects. Like bombing the shit out of the middle east, increasing torture, the stupid wall, deporting illegals, not allowing muslims in the country... how could Americans just let this shit go on? They can't, and they won't.

He called out the Bush family for lying about the Iraq war and how it wasted lives and money which would have been better spent elsewhere.

Increasing torture? I don't recall that statement specifically other than he said he would re-introduce water boarding, if that's what you mean.

At this point, he's to the left of Hillary on military action. Hillary is a devotee to the Neo-ConClan and her disaster that is the Arab Spring will only be replicated as often as it can if she's President.

I agree the wall is stupid. I just don't think its necessary. But as to deportations what part of the word "illegal" do you have a problem with?

A referendum on Muslim immigrants would create this domino effect: Trump will find out how the religion has been scapegoated and who really did 9/11 and round up the true culprits. Whether he follows through with all this to get this point remains to be seen, but he's the only politico who realistically has the gumption to do it.

 
The Omega Concern is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 06:58 PM   #79
The Omega Concern
Minion of Satan
 
The Omega Concern's Avatar
 
Location: stay, far, away
Posts: 8,991
Default

That said, did you see London has a muslim mayor now? First one ever in a major city of the western world. He also thinks moderate muslims are "Uncle Tom's" and obviously, the sharia law devoted muslims in london are just chomping at the bit to get their reign on.



 
The Omega Concern is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 08:18 PM   #80
reprise85
Submortal
 
reprise85's Avatar
 
Location: Now, I'm not a professional psychologist, but I am an amateur psychologist. And I think that your spontaneous eye-watering may have something to do with your father.
Posts: 27,953
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Omega Concern View Post
He called out the Bush family for lying about the Iraq war and how it wasted lives and money which would have been better spent elsewhere.

Increasing torture? I don't recall that statement specifically other than he said he would re-introduce water boarding, if that's what you mean.

At this point, he's to the left of Hillary on military action. Hillary is a devotee to the Neo-ConClan and her disaster that is the Arab Spring will only be replicated as often as it can if she's President.

I agree the wall is stupid. I just don't think its necessary. But as to deportations what part of the word "illegal" do you have a problem with?

A referendum on Muslim immigrants would create this domino effect: Trump will find out how the religion has been scapegoated and who really did 9/11 and round up the true culprits. Whether he follows through with all this to get this point remains to be seen, but he's the only politico who realistically has the gumption to do it.
He said he'd reintroduce waterboarding and 'go farther'. As for my issues with deporting illegals, I just had this convo with poots earlier today, in this thread. Regardless of the illegality of them staying in this country after visas expired or just coming illegally in the first place, it is both morally wrong and financially wasteful to deport them now. So they broke the law, yes, but there are other considerations to be made. Only children think the law should be followed to the letter out of principle. Adults take real life into consideration. I'm not going to go into more detail, if you want you can read the convo from earlier.

 
reprise85 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 09:44 PM   #81
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

its a lot harder than that we're talking about people who don't exist in America as far as records go

An attempt to enforce the law absolutely ends up violating other laws

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 09:48 PM   #82
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

So not only is it immoral it's also like straight up impossible to do what Trump wants to do to illegals

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 09:50 PM   #83
reprise85
Submortal
 
reprise85's Avatar
 
Location: Now, I'm not a professional psychologist, but I am an amateur psychologist. And I think that your spontaneous eye-watering may have something to do with your father.
Posts: 27,953
Default

This is a unique situation and the law does need to be modified. 11 million people don't need to be deported for that to happen. They are here and assimilated. Document them and then move on with new laws, or enforcing laws differently. Deporting illegal immigrants in mass is a ridiculous and logistically impossible solution, even if it is technically what the law would have us do. I don't have anything else to say about this if we're just going to go in circles.

@Poots

 
reprise85 is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 10:07 PM   #84
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

How do you single out illegals on a massive scale without infringing on the rights of legals

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 10:08 PM   #85
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

You are super dense

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 10:12 PM   #86
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

"at the expense of the middle class"

If they are legal they become tax payers like everyone, it's not at our expense, goddamn I give the fuck up

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 10:14 PM   #87
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

You are talking about a witch hunt on a massive scale

This is why it hasn't already been done. You want gov agents asking for your papers everywhere you go

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 10:28 PM   #88
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

How
Do
You
Find
All
The
Illegals

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 10:30 PM   #89
Elphenor
Socialphobic
 
Elphenor's Avatar
 
Location: Lizzy Mercier Descloux
Posts: 13,211
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poots View Post
Poor people don't pay taxes. You should know that. Illegal immigrants are poor, if you didn't notice.
When you provide people with opportunity they become the middle class

 
Elphenor is offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2016, 10:56 PM   #90
The Omega Concern
Minion of Satan
 
The Omega Concern's Avatar
 
Location: stay, far, away
Posts: 8,991
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by reprise85 View Post
He said he'd reintroduce waterboarding and 'go farther'. As for my issues with deporting illegals, I just had this convo with poots earlier today, in this thread. Regardless of the illegality of them staying in this country after visas expired or just coming illegally in the first place, it is both morally wrong and financially wasteful to deport them now. So they broke the law, yes, but there are other considerations to be made. Only children think the law should be followed to the letter out of principle. Adults take real life into consideration. I'm not going to go into more detail, if you want you can read the convo from earlier.


Real life is that there are limited resources. No matter how liberal one wants to be, there has to be a number, a cap, on immigrants. Just know you have one as well and at that point, someone else who thinks it should be larger can claim you are being immoral.


But that's philosophical reality. In actuality the immigration influx is a Bolshevik re-do and at least Poland figured it out. Imagine that.


Poland ‘won’t accept refugees because of threat to security’ – Kaczynski


Quote:
No refugees will be accepted in Poland, as they pose a threat to security, said the head Poland’s ruling Law and Justice party and former PM Jaroslaw Kaczynski, adding that Poland will oppose any law forcing EU members to pay €250,000 per refused refugee.

“After recent events connected with acts of terror [Poland] will not accept refugees because there is no mechanism that would ensure security,” Law and Justice (PiS) chair Kaczynski said on Saturday, as quoted by Radio Poland.

Poland is also staunchly against the European Commission proposal, announced last week, which would force EU member states to pay €250,000 per refused refugee.



 
The Omega Concern is offline
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Google


Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
So when is Jimmy coming back? Elphenor Smashing Pumpkins/Billy Corgan Discussion 21 02-17-2016 06:58 PM
Something I have noticed... rottenugly General Chat Archive 38 04-17-2012 04:25 PM
my very original ask me questions thread dr.benway General Chat Archive 27 08-04-2009 05:26 PM
I didn't realize people on this board were actually smashing pumpkin fans. I Ate My Hamster General Chat Archive 29 06-12-2007 11:49 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:00 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Smashing Pumpkins, Alternative Music
& General Discussion Message Board and Forums
www.netphoria.org - Copyright © 1998-2014