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Old 03-02-2008, 09:12 PM   #91
alisonmonster
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As a side note, i think that sometimes our ideas of what is 'natural' is skewed.

People often incorrectly believe that what is natural has to be innately good/correct (people are genetically different and ought be treated differently). Or the opposite: what is good is natural; what ought to be is. (ie: everybody should be treated equally, so there are no genetic differences.)

Politics make both errors. The conservatives: 'Nature designed women to be maternal and men to be competitive so women belong at home and men in the workplace.'
The liberals: ' Our country's principles state that men and women ought to be treated equally, so therefore men and women are biologically identical and anything that proves otherwise is false'.

Like a lot of people said, nature can be both ugly and self serving regardless if our behaviors are 'right' or not.

I'll play devil's advocate for a second: racism, it could be argued, could be innate for a purely evolutionary reason as well: our protection and survival - a defense mechanism.
Racism is often based on fear: fear of what 'the other' could do to you and the people close to you. If you had no prior knowledge whatsoever of another race existing (maybe you've never been in contact with someone from a certain race ever before and have no prior knowledge of them) and all of a sudden had contact with a bunch of people from this race, it can be argued that it is safer for you to be untrusting of them, to make snap judgements about their behaviours quickly as a group for your own safety because who knows what 'they' could do to you or what their motives are. Better to be 'safe' (even if your judgements later prove to be wrong through extended socialization) then sorry by letting your guard down.

And then you can further be socialized two ways: you can then learn by being positively told and by positively interacting with these 'others' that these people should not be marginalized and that you should not be racist towards them. Or it can go the other way: you can be socialized into thinking that these people are, in fact, dangerous people and if you have a negative interaction with one or more of these people, it will 'prove' your idea that these people should be treated badly.

One more thing about people's thinking when it comes to racism. Psychologically it is easier for us to think about a group of people as stereotypes and generalizations - we're lazy and can't hold 100 opinions about people all at once so it's easier to group people into one big lump and make generalizations accordingly.

Also, once you have an idea in your head about a group of people, the less likely you are to go find information that might prove you wrong (ie: i don't actively seek out and seriously read pro life propaganda because i think its bullshit). And the less likely you are to believe another opinion that differs from yours - you'll just go find 'facts' and other similar thinking people that back you up. Why is that? Because its a really hard blow to our self esteem to find out the things we strongly believe in could be totally wrong.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 09:14 PM   #92
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sleeperish posting

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 09:19 PM   #93
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i think it's funny that you can hate a douchebag from another country and all of a sudden you're xenophobic. because, really, it's ok to hate douchebags. after all, they're douchebags.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 09:24 PM   #94
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so many bad opinions i really just oughta quit even when someone like ali whom i thought was decent goes around justifying this shit in a 'scientific' manner. all she did was intellectualize something i might read on stormfront. whats the point when even white liberals are against you as well

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 09:28 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Frequency View Post
i think it's funny that you can hate a douchebag from another country and all of a sudden you're xenophobic. because, really, it's ok to hate douchebags. after all, they're douchebags.
no its the way you said it, dumbass. there was a clear hostility in your post and it was clearly directed toward foreigners as you felt the need to mention the fact that they were foreigners. you were implicitly trying to make an association between a personliaty attribute and a group of people. i shouldn't even have to explain this shit but it comes up on this messageboard over and over again.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 09:38 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by maoi View Post
so many bad opinions i really just oughta quit even when someone like ali whom i thought was decent goes around justifying this shit in a 'scientific' manner. all she did was intellectualize something i might read on stormfront. whats the point when even white liberals are against you as well
again you make the mistake of thinking it is justification. I completely agree with alisonmonster:

Quote:
Originally Posted by alisonmonster View Post
As a side note, i think that sometimes our ideas of what is 'natural' is skewed.

People often incorrectly believe that what is natural has to be innately good/correct (people are genetically different and ought be treated differently). Or the opposite: what is good is natural; what ought to be is. (ie: everybody should be treated equally, so there are no genetic differences.)
this directly addresses what you're arguing, that because racism is wrong it cannot be natural. you haven't at all supported the assertion that it's unnatural. only that it's wrong, which is obvious.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 09:58 PM   #97
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Yeah, perhaps racism is 'natural' in a way rape is. But regardless your argument goes down the shittier for the fact race is non existent, ergo RACISM is an idea that is created and taught. there's no genetic defense mechanism that makes one identify skin color and respond in chemical fashion. We are the same species, do any other animal species do this within their own?

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 09:59 PM   #98
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It's embarassing to even post in this thread. It's easy for you and alisonmonster to pontificate when you dont have to be marginalized by this bullshit day in and day out.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 10:05 PM   #99
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I would expand this discussion to ******* all forms of xenophobia. racism is a specific version of the "us vs. t**** attitude. physical appearance is an obvious but especially shallow marker of differentiation.

yes, animals do this all the time, though not by appearance as far as I know. animals live in packs and families. they exclude/kill/compete with all others.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 10:12 PM   #100
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Shut the fuck up Mayfuck. Every time you argue in threads like this it's really clear that you're either trolling or you really are a knownothing.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 10:21 PM   #101
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when was the last time i even trolled? I didn't make this thread and I didn't even want to post in it. I could not care less what shitbags like you or celluloid love think but when halfway decent people like charmbag or alisonmonster start posting drivel i kinda feel the need to address it.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 10:21 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maoi View Post
no its the way you said it, dumbass. there was a clear hostility in your post and it was clearly directed toward foreigners as you felt the need to mention the fact that they were foreigners. you were implicitly trying to make an association between a personliaty attribute and a group of people. i shouldn't even have to explain this shit but it comes up on this messageboard over and over again.
yea, indeed there was clear hostility in my post entitled "the slap out." wherein i wanted to vent. and i did. labeling them as internationals and the fact that i want to slap them doesn't make me xenophobic. fuck that and your clear hostility toward me for no real fucking reason. 80% of the people i work with are from other countries. 90% of the people i meet through my work are traveling internationally as well. i think it's healthy to say that i'm gonna meet some real fucking pricks. rich assholes that are difficult to relate to for a number of reasons. so in short, eat a dick dude. you're just being a fucking wanker.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 10:25 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maoi View Post
when was the last time i even trolled? I didn't make this thread and I didn't even want to post in it. I could not care less what shitbags like you or celluloid love think but when halfway decent people like charmbag or alisonmonster start posting drivel i kinda feel the need to address it.
It's because you're wrong Mayfuck and it's patently obvious you know next to nothing about history.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 10:26 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maoi View Post
when was the last time i even trolled? I didn't make this thread and I didn't even want to post in it. I could not care less what shitbags like you or celluloid love think but when halfway decent people like charmbag or alisonmonster start posting drivel i kinda feel the need to address it.
we both made legitimate points... are you going to address them? why, specifically, are they drivel?

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 10:32 PM   #105
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Because he can't respond to them.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 10:44 PM   #106
maoi
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what legitimate points? that people are predisposed to fear what they don't know? Is that a groundbreaking idea? I'm not even arguing against that and you're not reading anything i'm posting. do you really think there's an evolutionary benefit in fearing people of different colors? that statement would be true if there were legitimate things to fear about people of different skin color (note we are talking skin color, physcial attributes, not cultures and practices which we do have a rational dispostion to question) so how can I argue against something thats falsely framed? and I already told you why racism isn't natural.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 10:47 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Trotskilicious View Post
It's because you're wrong Mayfuck and it's patently obvious you know next to nothing about history.
who is talking about history? not me. i thought that s the conversation you and rockin cherub were having. stop addressing me on this board. we dont even disagree on anything.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:11 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exactlythesame View Post
i don't know how one could measure 'innate behaviour' in human adults because by the time they've matured they've had thousands of other opinions influence their actions, either for good or for bad

the only way that one could really accurately measure that is if there were a person who was completely secluded from society in general and was only taught the very basics for survival

then we could talk about instincts in an adult human
you compare behaviour across cultures

look for genetic correlations

etc

yawn

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:12 PM   #109
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are you sleepy

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:12 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maoi View Post
what legitimate points? that people are predisposed to fear what they don't know? Is that a groundbreaking idea? I'm not even arguing against that and you're not reading anything i'm posting. do you really think there's an evolutionary benefit in fearing people of different colors? that statement would be true if there were legitimate things to fear about people of different skin color (note we are talking skin color, physcial attributes, not cultures and practices which we do have a rational dispostion to question) so how can I argue against something thats falsely framed? and I already told you why racism isn't natural.
maybe because physical attributes were once much more closely linked to specific cultures because people didn't travel and regroup as often.

if a species is repeatedly doing something it must be because it serves itself in some way, even if it's short-sighted. so because racism has always existed, and continues to exist even within a modern culture where there is virtually nothing to gain from it and a lot to lose, I wouldn't ask if it is innate but rather "why?"

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:26 PM   #111
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We talk about rats together

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:27 PM   #112
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i told you guys all he talks about is racsm

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:31 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maoi View Post
ergo RACISM is an idea that is created and taught. there's no genetic defense mechanism that makes one identify skin color and respond in chemical fashion. We are the same species, do any other animal species do this within their own?
racism is indeed something we've taught through time - human 'nature' in evolutionary psychology (and my definition of such) is defined 2 ways: attitudes expressed over time, since time began in our ancestors and passed through generations and generations til the present.

Secondly, because human nature is universal - sometimes shared by everyone, sometimes shared by one sex. Our thoughts, feeling and behaviors are shared, to large existent, by all humans on earth despite our various cultures.

Human behavior is a product of both our innate human nature and our environment and i covered both in my last post.

I am not talking about brain chemicals or physical biology here in the sense that everything we do is chemicals - not a lot is just chemicals besides our various physical genes such as blood type, genetic disease and blue eyes. Depression is both biological and environmental. And so is the tendencies for people to do horrific things at the expense of others.

The argument is anthropological and not simply biological. People are ethnocentric because ethnocentrism - helping ones members at the cost of all others - was adaptive to the ancestral environment. it is evolutionary and biologically rational for people to want their own 'race' to keep going forever genetically and if some people feel another race in infringing on that, they'll do what it takes to prevent it.

My argument is that since we are human, after all,and that we can overcome ethnocentrism and make the choice not to be racist. Just like human beings are technically not monogamous but people have made the choice to be so, even if its against human nature ( thats another argument for later).

Do animals reject others within their species? i suspect it definitely does.for example the black swans in my hometown don't go anywhere near the white ones and live separately. but its not like i've done research between the two or anything.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:47 PM   #114
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too bad none of what i say has any value. i'm white and could not possibly attempt to understand anything to do with race. DUH

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:47 PM   #115
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"The argument is anthropological and not simply biological. People are ethnocentric because ethnocentrism - helping ones members at the cost of all others - was adaptive to the ancestral environment. it is evolutionary and biologically rational for people to want their own 'race' to keep going forever genetically and if some people feel another race in infringing on that, they'll do what it takes to prevent it."

There is no evolutionary benefit to this. I don't think you honestly believe this shit and just chalk it up to you conflating tribalism and racism.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:48 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alisonmonster View Post
too bad none of what i say has any value. i'm white and could not possibly attempt to understand anything to do with race. DUH
You're being stupid now.

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:51 PM   #117
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i have to say i agree with what he thinks but it's still boring and i know that every time something comes up that involves competition he thinks about it in terms of race

in a debate about the current presidential race, he will be the first to bring up racial differences for example

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:51 PM   #118
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it's just like shut the fuck up not everything is about race

 
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:55 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by maoi View Post
It's easy for you and alisonmonster to pontificate when you dont have to be marginalized by this bullshit day in and day out.
You're being stupid now.

 
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Old 03-03-2008, 12:00 AM   #120
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Yeah your prejudice is coming out a bit. This is good.

The point of that post was that being a caucasian in north america means never having to second guess arguments such as yours. It's not stupid to say that because I've been on the recieving end of such marginalization that I may have added perspective. Just sayin'.

 
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