i think i'm in love with machiavelli

Affect · 11-07-2002, 03:59 PM

STOP POSTING!!!!

Samsa · 11-07-2002, 04:05 PM

sort of funny-lookin

http://www.ashland.edu/colleges/arts...achiavelli.jpg http://www.comune.roma.it/cultura/it...achiavelli.jpg http://home.planet.nl/~mutsa024/machiavelli.jpg

but man. what a personality.

http://www.knowital.com/Towns/Floren...lli/theman.jpg

actually that one is noooot bad

Smiley33 · 11-07-2002, 04:05 PM

Lie · 11-07-2002, 04:07 PM

Suze, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but he's dead.

Smiley33 · 11-07-2002, 04:09 PM

One time, back in the day, I tried talking to some people in a Napster chatroom about Machiavelli (I don't remember why, I had a short obsession) and people kept thinking I was talking about MAKAVELI or whoever the fuck that rapper is. NO I AM NOT FUCKING TALKING ABOUT THE RAPPER, ASSHOLES.

Lie · 11-07-2002, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smiley33
One time, back in the day, I tried talking to some people in a Napster chatroom about Machiavelli (I don't remember why, I had a short obsession) and people kept thinking I was talking about MAKAVELI or whoever the fuck that rapper is. NO I AM NOT FUCKING TALKING ABOUT THE RAPPER, ASSHOLES.

I keep meaning to ask you, did you recently become a hotshot guitar player or something?

Smiley33 · 11-07-2002, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lie

I keep meaning to ask you, did you recently become a hotshot guitar player or something?

recently? baby, I was born with a gee-tar in my hands.

Samsa · 11-07-2002, 04:15 PM

guys please just use this thread to discuss machiavelli. i can't even describe like. i dunno. i don't know much about him but he comes off as so...i don't even know. easy-going, analytical, blase, introspective, i don't know

Lie · 11-07-2002, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smiley33
recently? baby, I was born with a gee-tar in my hands.

Seriously, though? I've just never noticed you mention it before.

Lie · 11-07-2002, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samsa
guys please just use this thread to discuss machiavelli. i can't even describe like. i dunno. i don't know much about him but he comes off as so...i don't even know. easy-going, analytical, blase, introspective, i don't know

In other words, he was HAT.

Samsa · 11-07-2002, 04:17 PM

sigh...

Smiley33 · 11-07-2002, 04:17 PM

god damn it Lie, I knew you'd ask. I'm a charlatan.

Actually I just thought it was a cool picture. I play guitar, but not on a regular basis anymore. Damn you, Lie, damn you.

Smiley33 · 11-07-2002, 04:18 PM

I honestly think Suze was born into the wrong century.

Lie · 11-07-2002, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smiley33
god damn it Lie, I knew you'd ask. I'm a charlatan.

Actually I just thought it was a cool picture. I play guitar, but not on a regular basis anymore. Damn you, Lie, damn you.

I still think it's cool that you play guitar. I just can't keep myself from asking these things.

Lie · 11-07-2002, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smiley33
I honestly think Suze was born into the wrong century.

I think she's just a born historian.

Smiley33 · 11-07-2002, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lie

I still think it's cool that you play guitar. I just can't keep myself from asking these things.

I just thought you were making fun of me for my avatar.

I know you play because you've posted about it before! I think it was around a Jeff Buckley era on Netphoria.

Smiley33 · 11-07-2002, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lie

I think she's just a born historian.

what do you think she'll end up doing, though? Historical research? University professor? I don't think she could handle the high school kids. "OH MY GOD YOU ARE SUCH A MORON. UGH JUST DIE OKAY?" Man, I would have loved Suze for my world history class in high school.

Lie · 11-07-2002, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smiley33

I just thought you were making fun of me for my avatar.

I know you play because you've posted about it before! I think it was around a Jeff Buckley era on Netphoria.

No, I just always like to find other people who play guitar. And I was just surprised because I hadn't remembered you talking about it before at all.

Smiley33 · 11-07-2002, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lie

No, I just always like to find other people who play guitar. And I was just surprised because I hadn't remembered you talking about it before at all.

If pianos were as easy to cart around and travel with as guitars, I'd post a lot more about playing and loving instruments.

Lie · 11-07-2002, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smiley33
what do you think she'll end up doing, though? Historical research? University professor? I don't think she could handle the high school kids. "OH MY GOD YOU ARE SUCH A MORON. UGH JUST DIE OKAY?" Man, I would have loved Suze for my world history class in high school.

I think she would make a good historical writer. I mean, she would write the kind of history books that weren't just general textbook knowledge, but the facts along with a more philosophical approach.

Smiley33 · 11-07-2002, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lie

I think she would make a good historical writer. I mean, she would write the kind of history books that weren't just general textbook knowledge, but the facts along with a more philosophical approach.

I want to see her write a biography. I think she'd make them fascinating. I mean, her fascination with things is fascinating.

beef curtains · 11-07-2002, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samsa
guys please just use this thread to discuss machiavelli. i can't even describe like. i dunno. i don't know much about him but he comes off as so...i don't even know. easy-going, analytical, blase, introspective, i don't know

wasn't he a pessimistic war monger???

Samsa · 11-07-2002, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by So very sad about me

wasn't he a pessimistic war monger???

see i don't really have enough primary information but apparently people shouldn't take 'the prince' as his like whole political philosophy. apparently he favored a stable republic or whatever. plus, i just don't know. i don't know. i haven't even read much of 'the prince' yet. but if anything it's just funny how he like so casually mentions eliminating people. ahh ha ha. he was just practical or something. i dunno.

oh and i'd make a good grade school teacher! i loove kids! i just couldn't teach middle school kids. those people are horrible.

Travis Meekz · 11-07-2002, 05:06 PM

shut up suze, you need some sort of life

Lie · 11-07-2002, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by So very sad about me
wasn't he a pessimistic war monger???

Well, he wrote The Prince, which was basically a book on the virtues of monarchies, but later it was scholars theorized as to whether the whole thing wasn't written as a satire of absolute rulers. After all, he was never a dictator himself and was also a playwright. Then they found out later that he admitted that he had only written it to get on the good side of the ruling family in Italy at the time. Which drives home the fact that he was probably more of a social charmer than a politician. An interesting political figure, in any case.

Samsa · 11-07-2002, 05:08 PM

what really made me go

is actually some letter they put in the intro but i can't type it out now cuz i have to go to orchestra. but it's just a letter about what he does now that he's exiled from florence. he plays chess with butchers and feels really bored or something. lol.

Samsa · 11-08-2002, 01:00 PM

Letter from Niccolo Machiavelli to Francesco Vettori
10 December 1513

Magnificent Ambassador:

"Never late were favors divine." I say this because I seemed to have lost--no, rather mislaid--your good will; you had not written to me for a long time, and I was wondering what the reason could be. And of all those that came into my mind I took little account, except of one only, when I feared that you had stopped writing because somebody had written to you that I was not a good guardian of your letters, and I knew that, except Filippo and Pagolo, nobody by my doing had seen them. I have found it again through your last letter of the twenty-third of the past month, from which I learn with pleasure how regularly and quietly you carry on this public office, and I encourage you to continue so, because he who gives up his own convenience for the convenience of others, only loses his own and from them gets no gratitude. And since Fortune wants to do everything, she wishes us to let her do it, to be quiet, and not to give her trouble, and to wait for a time when she will allow something to be done by men; and then will be the time for you to work harder, to stir things up more, and for me to leave my farm and say: "Here I am." I cannot however, wishing to return equal favors, tell you in this letter anything else than what my life is; and if you judge that you would like to swap with me, I shall be glad to.

I am living on my farm, and since I had my last bad luck, I have not spent twenty days, putting them all together, in Florence. I have until now been snaring thrushes with my own hands. I got up before day, prepared birdlime, went out with a bundle of cages on my back, so that I looked like Geta when he was returning from the harbor with Amphitryon's books. I caught at least two thrushes and at most six. And so I did all September. Then this pastime, pitiful and strange as it is, gave out, to my displeasure. And of what sort my life is, I shall tell you.

I get up in the morning with the sun and go into a grove I am having cut down, where I remain two hours to look over the work of the past day and kill some time with the cutters, who have always some bad-luck story ready, about either themselves or their neighbors. And as to this grove I could tell you a thousand fine things that have happened to me, in dealing with Frosino da Panzano and others who wanted some of this firewood. And Frosino especially sent for a number of cords without saying a thing to me, and on payment he wanted to keep back from me ten lire, which he says he should have had from me four years ago, when he beat me at cricca at Antonio Guicciardini's. I raised the devil, and was going to prosecute as a thief the waggoner who came for the wood, but Giovanni Machiavelli came between us and got us to agree. Batista Guicciardini, Filippo Ginori, Tommaso del Bene and some other citizens, when that north wind was blowing, each ordered a cord from me. I made promises to all and sent one to Tommaso, which at Florence changed to half a cord, because it was piled up again by himself, his wife, his servant, his children, so that he looked like Gabburra when on Thursday with all his servants he cudgels an ox. Hence, having seen for whom there was profit, I told the others I had no more wood, and all of them were angry about it, and especially Batista, who counts this along with his misfortunes at Prato.

Leaving the grove, I go to a spring, and thence to my aviary. I have a book in my pocket, either Dante or Petrarch, or one of the lesser poets, such as Tibullus, Ovid, and the like. I read of their tender passions and their loves, remember mine, enjoy myself a while in that sort of dreaming. Then I move along the road to the inn; I speak with those who pass, ask news of their villages, learn various things, and note the various tastes and different fancies of men. In the course of these things comes the hour for dinner, where with my family I eat such food as this poor farm of mine and my tiny property allow. Having eaten, I go back to the inn; there is the host, usually a butcher, a miller, two furnace tenders. With these I sink into vulgarity for the whole day, playing at cricca and at trich-trach, and then these games bring on a thousand disputes and countless insults with offensive words, and usually we are fighting over a penny, and nevertheless we are heard shouting as far as San Casciano. So, involved in these trifles, I keep my brain from growing mouldy, and satisfy the malice of this fate of mine, being glad to have her drive me along this road, to see if she will be ashamed of it.

On the coming of evening, I return to my house and enter my study; and at the door I take off the day's clothing, covered with mud and dust, and put on garments regal and courtly; and reclothed appropriately, I enter the ancient courts of ancient men, where, received by them with affection, I feed on that food which only is mine and which I was born for, where I am not ashamed to speak with them and to ask them the reason for their actions; and they in their kindness answer me; and for four hours of time I do not feel boredom, I forget every trouble, I do not dread poverty, I am not frightened by death; entirely I give myself over to them.

And because Dante says it does not produce knowledge when we hear but do not remember, I have noted everything in their conversation which has profited me, and have composed a little work On Princedoms, where I go as deeply as I can into considerations on this subject, debating what a princedom is, of what kinds they are, how they are gained, how they are kept, why they are lost. And if ever you can find any of my fantasies pleasing, this one should not displease you; and by a prince, and especially by a new prince, it ought to be welcomed. Hence I am dedicating it to His Magnificence Giuliano. Filippo Casavecchia has seen it; he can give you some account in part of the thing in itself and of the discussions I have had with him, though I am still enlarging and revising it.

You wish, Magnificent Ambassador, that I leave this life and come to enjoy yours with you. I shall do it in any case, but what tempts me now are certain affairs that within six weeks I shall finish. What makes me doubtful is that the Soderini we know so well are in the city, whom I should be obliged, on coming there, to visit and talk with. I should fear that on my return I could not hope to dismount at my house but should dismount at the prison, because though this government has mighty foundations and great security, yet it is new and therefore suspicious, and there is no lack of wiseacres who, to make a figure, like Pagolo Bertini, would place others at the dinner table and leave the reckoning to me. I beg you to rid me of this fear, and then I shall come within the time mentioned to visit you in any case.

I have talked with Filippo about this little work of mine that I have spoken of, whether it is good to give it or not to give it; and if it is good to give it, whether it would be good to take it myself, or whether I should send it there. Not giving it would make me fear that at the least Giuliano will not read it and that this rascal Ardinghelli will get himself honor from this latest work of mine. The giving of it is forced on me by the necessity that drives me, because I am using up my money, and I cannot remain as I am a long time without becoming despised through poverty. In addition, there is my wish that our present Medici lords will make use of me, even if they begin by making me roll a stone; because then if I could not gain their favor, I should complain of myself; and through this thing, if it were read, they would see that for the fifteen years while I have been studying the art of the state, I have not slept or been playing; and well may anybody be glad to get the services of one who at the expense of others has become full of experience. And of my honesty there should be no doubt, because having always preserved my honesty, I shall hardly now learn to break it; and he who has been honest and good for forty-three years, as I have, cannot change his nature; and as a witness to my honesty and goodness I have my poverty.

I should like, then, to have you also write me what you think best on this matter, and I give you my regards. Be happy.

Niccolo Machiavelli, in Florence

jenn · 11-08-2002, 01:12 PM

suze actually reminds me of a history teacher i had... his name was mr. hettrich. the guy was a bit of a nut, but he knew his shit. like, if i was ever on millionaire... he would be each and every one of my lifelines.

sawdust restaurants · 11-08-2002, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lie
Well, he wrote The Prince, which was basically a book on the virtues of monarchies, but later it was scholars theorized as to whether the whole thing wasn't written as a satire of absolute rulers. After all, he was never a dictator himself and was also a playwright. Then they found out later that he admitted that he had only written it to get on the good side of the ruling family in Italy at the time. Which drives home the fact that he was probably more of a social charmer than a politician. An interesting political figure, in any case.

I didn't know any of that. Thanks for the heads-up.

11-07-2002, 03:58 PM	#1
Samsa Banned Location: A theater near you Posts: 7,929	i think i'm in love with machiavelli

11-07-2002, 04:05 PM	#4
Smiley33 Minion of Satan Posts: 6,542	WTF

11-07-2002, 04:18 PM	#14
Smiley33 Minion of Satan Posts: 6,542	this is my contribution to this thread I honestly think Suze was born into the wrong century.

11-07-2002, 03:59 PM	#2
Affect Fuck Location: xxx Posts: 5,360	STOP POSTING!!!!

11-07-2002, 04:07 PM	#5
Lie Socialphobic Location: Goin' out West where they'll appreciate me Posts: 10,001	Suze, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but he's dead.

11-07-2002, 04:09 PM	#6
Smiley33 Minion of Satan Posts: 6,542	One time, back in the day, I tried talking to some people in a Napster chatroom about Machiavelli (I don't remember why, I had a short obsession) and people kept thinking I was talking about MAKAVELI or whoever the fuck that rapper is. NO I AM NOT FUCKING TALKING ABOUT THE RAPPER, ASSHOLES.

11-07-2002, 04:15 PM	#9
Samsa Banned Location: A theater near you Posts: 7,929	guys please just use this thread to discuss machiavelli. i can't even describe like. i dunno. i don't know much about him but he comes off as so...i don't even know. easy-going, analytical, blase, introspective, i don't know

11-07-2002, 04:17 PM	#12
Samsa Banned Location: A theater near you Posts: 7,929	sigh...

11-07-2002, 05:06 PM	#25
Travis Meekz Minion of Satan Location: . Posts: 6,301	shut up suze, you need some sort of life

11-07-2002, 05:08 PM	#27
Samsa Banned Location: A theater near you Posts: 7,929	what really made me go is actually some letter they put in the intro but i can't type it out now cuz i have to go to orchestra. but it's just a letter about what he does now that he's exiled from florence. he plays chess with butchers and feels really bored or something. lol.

11-08-2002, 01:00 PM	#28
Samsa Banned Location: A theater near you Posts: 7,929	Letter from Niccolo Machiavelli to Francesco Vettori 10 December 1513 Magnificent Ambassador: "Never late were favors divine." I say this because I seemed to have lost--no, rather mislaid--your good will; you had not written to me for a long time, and I was wondering what the reason could be. And of all those that came into my mind I took little account, except of one only, when I feared that you had stopped writing because somebody had written to you that I was not a good guardian of your letters, and I knew that, except Filippo and Pagolo, nobody by my doing had seen them. I have found it again through your last letter of the twenty-third of the past month, from which I learn with pleasure how regularly and quietly you carry on this public office, and I encourage you to continue so, because he who gives up his own convenience for the convenience of others, only loses his own and from them gets no gratitude. And since Fortune wants to do everything, she wishes us to let her do it, to be quiet, and not to give her trouble, and to wait for a time when she will allow something to be done by men; and then will be the time for you to work harder, to stir things up more, and for me to leave my farm and say: "Here I am." I cannot however, wishing to return equal favors, tell you in this letter anything else than what my life is; and if you judge that you would like to swap with me, I shall be glad to. I am living on my farm, and since I had my last bad luck, I have not spent twenty days, putting them all together, in Florence. I have until now been snaring thrushes with my own hands. I got up before day, prepared birdlime, went out with a bundle of cages on my back, so that I looked like Geta when he was returning from the harbor with Amphitryon's books. I caught at least two thrushes and at most six. And so I did all September. Then this pastime, pitiful and strange as it is, gave out, to my displeasure. And of what sort my life is, I shall tell you. I get up in the morning with the sun and go into a grove I am having cut down, where I remain two hours to look over the work of the past day and kill some time with the cutters, who have always some bad-luck story ready, about either themselves or their neighbors. And as to this grove I could tell you a thousand fine things that have happened to me, in dealing with Frosino da Panzano and others who wanted some of this firewood. And Frosino especially sent for a number of cords without saying a thing to me, and on payment he wanted to keep back from me ten lire, which he says he should have had from me four years ago, when he beat me at cricca at Antonio Guicciardini's. I raised the devil, and was going to prosecute as a thief the waggoner who came for the wood, but Giovanni Machiavelli came between us and got us to agree. Batista Guicciardini, Filippo Ginori, Tommaso del Bene and some other citizens, when that north wind was blowing, each ordered a cord from me. I made promises to all and sent one to Tommaso, which at Florence changed to half a cord, because it was piled up again by himself, his wife, his servant, his children, so that he looked like Gabburra when on Thursday with all his servants he cudgels an ox. Hence, having seen for whom there was profit, I told the others I had no more wood, and all of them were angry about it, and especially Batista, who counts this along with his misfortunes at Prato. Leaving the grove, I go to a spring, and thence to my aviary. I have a book in my pocket, either Dante or Petrarch, or one of the lesser poets, such as Tibullus, Ovid, and the like. I read of their tender passions and their loves, remember mine, enjoy myself a while in that sort of dreaming. Then I move along the road to the inn; I speak with those who pass, ask news of their villages, learn various things, and note the various tastes and different fancies of men. In the course of these things comes the hour for dinner, where with my family I eat such food as this poor farm of mine and my tiny property allow. Having eaten, I go back to the inn; there is the host, usually a butcher, a miller, two furnace tenders. With these I sink into vulgarity for the whole day, playing at cricca and at trich-trach, and then these games bring on a thousand disputes and countless insults with offensive words, and usually we are fighting over a penny, and nevertheless we are heard shouting as far as San Casciano. So, involved in these trifles, I keep my brain from growing mouldy, and satisfy the malice of this fate of mine, being glad to have her drive me along this road, to see if she will be ashamed of it. On the coming of evening, I return to my house and enter my study; and at the door I take off the day's clothing, covered with mud and dust, and put on garments regal and courtly; and reclothed appropriately, I enter the ancient courts of ancient men, where, received by them with affection, I feed on that food which only is mine and which I was born for, where I am not ashamed to speak with them and to ask them the reason for their actions; and they in their kindness answer me; and for four hours of time I do not feel boredom, I forget every trouble, I do not dread poverty, I am not frightened by death; entirely I give myself over to them. And because Dante says it does not produce knowledge when we hear but do not remember, I have noted everything in their conversation which has profited me, and have composed a little work On Princedoms, where I go as deeply as I can into considerations on this subject, debating what a princedom is, of what kinds they are, how they are gained, how they are kept, why they are lost. And if ever you can find any of my fantasies pleasing, this one should not displease you; and by a prince, and especially by a new prince, it ought to be welcomed. Hence I am dedicating it to His Magnificence Giuliano. Filippo Casavecchia has seen it; he can give you some account in part of the thing in itself and of the discussions I have had with him, though I am still enlarging and revising it. You wish, Magnificent Ambassador, that I leave this life and come to enjoy yours with you. I shall do it in any case, but what tempts me now are certain affairs that within six weeks I shall finish. What makes me doubtful is that the Soderini we know so well are in the city, whom I should be obliged, on coming there, to visit and talk with. I should fear that on my return I could not hope to dismount at my house but should dismount at the prison, because though this government has mighty foundations and great security, yet it is new and therefore suspicious, and there is no lack of wiseacres who, to make a figure, like Pagolo Bertini, would place others at the dinner table and leave the reckoning to me. I beg you to rid me of this fear, and then I shall come within the time mentioned to visit you in any case. I have talked with Filippo about this little work of mine that I have spoken of, whether it is good to give it or not to give it; and if it is good to give it, whether it would be good to take it myself, or whether I should send it there. Not giving it would make me fear that at the least Giuliano will not read it and that this rascal Ardinghelli will get himself honor from this latest work of mine. The giving of it is forced on me by the necessity that drives me, because I am using up my money, and I cannot remain as I am a long time without becoming despised through poverty. In addition, there is my wish that our present Medici lords will make use of me, even if they begin by making me roll a stone; because then if I could not gain their favor, I should complain of myself; and through this thing, if it were read, they would see that for the fifteen years while I have been studying the art of the state, I have not slept or been playing; and well may anybody be glad to get the services of one who at the expense of others has become full of experience. And of my honesty there should be no doubt, because having always preserved my honesty, I shall hardly now learn to break it; and he who has been honest and good for forty-three years, as I have, cannot change his nature; and as a witness to my honesty and goodness I have my poverty. I should like, then, to have you also write me what you think best on this matter, and I give you my regards. Be happy. Niccolo Machiavelli, in Florence

11-08-2002, 01:12 PM	#29
jenn Minion of Satan Location: new york Posts: 6,325	suze actually reminds me of a history teacher i had... his name was mr. hettrich. the guy was a bit of a nut, but he knew his shit. like, if i was ever on millionaire... he would be each and every one of my lifelines.